PC1 Latest Build testing.

[Andy_J]

As you all know, Ian gave me a free pass to test the latest builds and that's what I have been doing for the last week. I will report here as and when I see fit to tell all about my findings.

But I will say that the latest build (296) is quite good. Now lets make some sense of my statement. I used a Lotus 98T in helmet cam using my antique MOMO red wheel and I can honestly report it is coming along much better than I anticipated. The actual feel and immersion is damn fine at this point. The handling is strange at first compared to say...RF2 and FVA, but it grows on you within minutes. At this point in time, this actual car feels good. I like it and I love the Milan circuit. The damage model has come on leaps and bounds.

I am doing some more testing all of next week using a G27 and I will also test some of the other cars that don't interest me as much (I am a F1 nut) and see how the feel in comparison to Shift 2, because that is what I was initially comparing PCars to.

I would like the replay function to have a directors mode though. Something that jumps from action to action and from car to car.

Aside from that, the replay's do crash my PC quite often but I understand that is being looked at.

Watch this space.

 

[traind]

The front brake locking feeling right now may be a bit exaggerated. And non-load cell brakes are harder to avoid such things as noted above.

On the other hand, Ben Collins has praised the brake locking in his feedback and he's had a lot more experience in real life with such things. And Ben's feedback is not all positive, BTW. He hammers stuff he doesn't like quite often and is very thorough in his requests for changes.

 

[Chronus]

On the other hand, Ben Collins has praised the brake locking in his feedback and he's had a lot more experience in real life with such things.

Irrelevant, and no surprise there.

Ben Collins is a professional driver and his feedback is vital for this (contrary to what "some" say). But nobody believes he is saying errors/bugs/problems are actually not errors/bugs/problems.

Also, his praise of brake locking doesn't mean he agrees with the behaviour as described by Peter.

I happens with every car and I'm not even braking very hard. With other sims I brake hard and when I feel that the wheels are going to lock I lift the brake, never had any problems.
[...]

I'm not the only one with that problem and if this still happens in a finished state, ppl should be warned to turn the ffb off.

You are definitely NOT the only one - I have been told of similar things, weeks ago.

But there's still time. It'll be corrected, hopefully.

 

[Peter]

I don't have a loadcell yet ( I'm waiting for Thrustmaster) but I'm a carefull braker without locking up in all my sims.

 

[Birddogg66]

I did a bit of off road racing in my younger days and anytime I locked the front brakes in a turn the car wanted to go straight same as if the same is done on a wet paved road steering becomes nil when front brakes are locked I also believe this is fairly common in F1 when drivers lock the front for a split second. So yes it does represent RL. Is it perfect in it's current state? If you turn on ABS and you still have the problem that would maybe suggest a bug with the effect related to FFB.
As for me I was getting these brake lock ups on a couple of cars and I adjusted my entry to compensate I also do some brake dragging in the corners.

 

[traind]

Irrelevant, and no surprise there.

Also, his praise of brake locking doesn't mean he agrees with the behaviour as described by Peter.

What is irrelevant? You need to explain your argument a bit more vs. just dismissing it by such a statement. Or your comment is the thing that becomes irrelevant.

The braking behavior is not the same across all cars... some lock up worse than others. Collin's feedback on braking has been very car dependent... here are a few quotes from a single post. If nothing else it shows sms are getting thorough feedback from a professional on this topic:

"Full pedal pressure doesn’t create enough bite to lock the front wheels from the beginning, only managing to lock right at the end of the braking zone (yes ABS was off!). Braking should be much more aggressive with more dive and there should be enough braking power to lock the tyres early on. The dive and feedback should be enough to help the driver ride the threshold. I get that feeling much more in the Formula A"

"So far the best braking trend has been in the 98T – the nose dives, there’s feedback, you can lock the tyres and when you overstep the limit you get a small front tyre lock up that delays your corner entry by a few feet. Bang on."
"I believe we should dial out this new trend of oversteer on the brakes."

 

[Chronus]

I did a bit of off road racing in my younger days and anytime I locked the front brakes in a turn the car wanted to go straight same as if the same is done on a wet paved road steering becomes nil when front brakes are locked I also believe this is fairly common in F1 when drivers lock the front for a split second. So yes it does represent RL.

But Birddogg66, that is not what Peter K. is saying. He's saying that he holds the wheel tight but the wheels (and the wheel) want to slam right or left. Going on a straight line, brake locking and continuing straight on is the expected behaviour, but not pulling one way or the other under normal circumstances.

have to hold the wheel real tight because it slams left/right, I also still can't brake because the wheel pulls left or right.

It could be interesting to check something:

turn off FFB, and do the exact same thing, just to check what is the reaction of the front wheels and if the car points suddenly left or right for no reason.

If, in this case, this turns out to be a simple FFB issue, then it's got nothing to do with the handling and physics.

 

[Chronus]

What is irrelevant? You need to explain your argument a bit more vs. just dismissing it by such a statement.

Dismissing what the poster (PK) has pointed out based on the feedback of Ben Collins on brake locking is irrelevant. And again, no surprise there. Also, as you have used Ben's feedback to do just that, then prove that he said THAT behaviour (the one the poster reported) is the correct one.

This may end up being just something FFB-related (perhaps affecting some wheels), but that poster is surely not alone in pointing this out.

As for irrelevance, bud...If someone posts an issue, why not try to understand vs simply dismissing it due to feedback from someone else?

We shall see if this continues a few builds down the road.

 

[Birddogg66]

Dismissing what the poster (PK) has pointed out based on the feedback of Ben Collins on brake locking is irrelevant. And again, no surprise there. Also, as you have used Ben's feedback to do just that, then prove that he said THAT behaviour (the one the poster reported) is the correct one.

This may end up being just something FFB-related (perhaps affecting some wheels), but that poster is surely not alone in pointing this out.

As for irrelevance, bud...If someone posts an issue, why not try to understand vs simply dismissing it due to feedback from someone else?

We shall see if this continues a few builds down the road.

I respect his feedback and now your comment regarding his(PK's) feedback has me questioning exactly what type of behavior he is experiencing. What I am feeling in a front brake lock situations with my CSW seems logical to me if not completely perfect. Seems it's just enough to throw you off your line for a split second. He could always try to back up his corner entry a bit and see if that helps.
My experience in RL is that when you start to turn in and lock the front wheels the steering wheel will stay that position. Once you let up off the brake to unlock that is where you will get whip in the steering wheel from the correction process.

 

[Chronus]

I respect his feedback and now your comment regarding his(PK's) feedback has me questioning exactly what type of behavior he is experiencing.

That is precisely the point - making people think about something someone said instead of summarily dismissing it with a "Ben Collins said it ain't so".

What I am feeling in a front brake lock situations with my CSW seems logical to me if not completely perfect. Seems it's just enough to throw you off your line for a split second. He could always try to back up his corner entry a bit and see if that helps.
My experience in RL is that when you start to turn in and lock the front wheels the steering wheel will stay that position. Once you let up off the brake to unlock that is where you will get whip in the steering wheel from the correction process.

Yes, but not as he stated: hold the wheel straight and brake. Unless there's some camber in the road, balance will be unsettled in a different way than when you're turning in or cornering. Weight shifts to the front, alright, but there is no pivot point that causes what he mentions.

Hence why I suggested: turn off FFB, and brake in a straight line. [Under normal circumstances, and with stability systems off, what PK mentioned is not supposed to happen.]

 

[Jari Vinnari]

With for example Lotus 98 my Fanatec wheel does pull side to side violently when you lock your brakes and that isnt very nice feature.

 

[traind]

Dismissing what the poster (PK) has pointed out based on the feedback of Ben Collins on brake locking is irrelevant. And again, no surprise there. Also, as you have used Ben's feedback to do just that, then prove that he said THAT behaviour (the one the poster reported) is the correct one.

This may end up being just something FFB-related (perhaps affecting some wheels), but that poster is surely not alone in pointing this out.

As for irrelevance, bud...If someone posts an issue, why not try to understand vs simply dismissing it due to feedback from someone else?

We shall see if this continues a few builds down the road.

You are the one dismissing things, not I. I agreed that the brake lock-up is somewhat exaggerated right now and then I countered my own observation/point with the fact that Collins has praised it (on some of the vehicles). Then you jump on me and say my quoting Collins is "irrelevant, and no surprise there".

A moderately careful reader of my post should be able to ascertain that I was not one sided on the issue and was actually showing some allegiance to the original observation by Peter.

Along with your second reply using "bud" .... this leads me to the conclusion that you either a) are acting like a bit of a virtual punk or b) did not read my post very closely. I hope it is the latter but I'll let you clarify which is most accurate.

 

[Peter]

Jari Vinnari
''With for example Lotus 98 my Fanatec wheel does pull side to side violently when you lock your brakes and that isnt very nice feature. ''

The best drivable settings are FFB 40 and tire force 100, anything higher than that causes the wheel to slam to one side under straight line braking.
FFB 40 is not enough for me.

 

[Chronus]

The best drivable settings are FFB 40 and tire force 100, anything higher than that causes the wheel to slam to one side under straight line braking.
FFB 40 is not enough for me.

It is just an FFB issue for you, then? If you set FFB aside, car behaviour under braking is normal?

Braking behaviour may be correct, in which case FFB is doing something it shouldn't; or braking behaviour is incorrect (in which case, FFB merely reflects that). Either way, having this reported at WMD would probably benefit others?

--

traind,

a moderately careful simracer would never use the feedback from Ben Collins as a counterpoint to someone commenting on what he/she perceives to be an anomaly.

Move on, no harm done.

 

[Peter]

Chronus
Until ffb 40 I can hold the wheel and the problem is not so prominent, this is the same wiht tire force 100. When I set the tire force higher than 100 the problem comes back. These settings are for me the highest possible settings but there almost no feed back.

''Either way, having this reported at WMD would probably benefit others?''

This is reported more than one year ago.

 

[Chronus]

Peter Koch,

A buddy of mine showed me a video a few days ago. He pushed hard on the brakes (no FFB) and the wheels veered to the right momentarily. Maybe a graphical glitch, maybe. anyway, he maintains he kept the wheel straight.

In your case indeed FFB seems to be the cause. Maybe particular to the wheel you use or the FFB config? The fact that it is less noticeable at certain force levels and comes out again after a certain threshold is indicative of something I saw elsewhere during development.

Anyway, 1 year is a pretty long time to leave this unresolved. So, this problem spans two tire models - before the Setae came and after release, and several improvements in other areas as well.

 

[Birddogg66]

ATM I can't fully comment on the final goal in respects to FFB. I believe SMS feels they have a good base to work from in regards to FFB I have no idea if they are planning more with it later on in Beta phase. AFM I would like to see the effects put on sliders myself for a more custom FFB profile.

 

[Peter]

I switch from a G27 to a t500rs but the problem was the same. I didn't put my life in SMS's hands so there is more nice software to play with.

 

[David Ignjatovic]

I switch from a G27 to a t500rs but the problem was the same. I didn't put my life in SMS's hands so there is more nice software to play with.

It sounds like the physics are still center fixed and the car pivots left or right in a very basic one dimensional way=simcade physics.

 

[DayGlow]

It sounds like the physics are still center fixed and the car pivots left or right in a very basic one dimensional way=simcade physics.

You feel this pivot in your playing of the latest build?

 

[Nathan Robinson]

I got my simrig back up and running and spent a lot of time with pcars this weekend. I love the new throttle update, makes it a lot easier to modulate on corner exit. I met some respectful racers in the multiplayer races which made it fun but the collision detection makes it tricky to run close. My favorite times were with any of the historic open wheelers and the palmer jaguar ( palmer drives believably and is rewarding when you hit your marks) Im not too impressed withthe RUF although its still not close to complete. I have no issues with wheel wobble on my csr elite.