Is VR dead?

[metalnwood]

The other thing that seems to be forgotten by people complaining about a lack of foveated rendering is that the BSB is very efficient because it doesn't require the overhead of a separate compositor. So when the VR Flight Sim Guy is getting 75 fps solid in MSFS through steamVR without foveated rendering, that's because of lower overhead.

This improved efficiency translates to EVERY title, not just those where mbucchia has taken the time to add support.

How does this work? I mean what is the difference between the bsb using the steamvr compositor and steams openxr api vs wmr as the compositor and using the openxr api in iracing, msfs, dcs etc?

I dont use any software any longer that requires an additional steam layer that we had to have a couple years back, so for the sims we are looking at have we not already removed the overhead from the other headsets?

 

[RCHeliguy]

I have never seen anything badly reviewed by Boosted Media.
May be Will just a too nice and positive person, because he's definitely NOT making money on his channel, no way.

Never?

To be fair, part of his gushing about the BSB was that it was plug and play and just worked.

But more importantly he flat out said the BSB would be his go to headset and that he would sell his other headsets to get a BSB if he needed to.

He has given other hardware positive reviews, but he doesn't say that he would sell all his other X components if he needed to in order to have one.

 

[RCHeliguy]

How does this work? I mean what is the difference between the bsb using the steamvr compositor and steams openxr api vs wmr as the compositor and using the openxr api in iracing, msfs, dcs etc?

I dont use any software any longer that requires an additional steam layer that we had to have a couple years back, so for the sims we are looking at have we not already removed the overhead from the other headsets?

An extra layer in both cases.

 

[metalnwood]

An extra layer in both cases.

How do you mean? I am still confused how using the native steam compositor will be more efficient? Another system uses their own compositor+openxr. Steam native uses their own compositor + openvr or openxr.

What is the inherent benefit?

 

[gamma123152]

Never?

To be fair, part of his gushing about the BSB was that it was plug and play and just worked.

But more importantly he flat out said the BSB would be his go to headset and that he would sell his other headsets to get a BSB if he needed to.

He has given other hardware positive reviews, but he doesn't say that he would sell all his other X components if he needed to in order to have one.

The Pimax Crystal had a failed launch. He tried the Crystal with the optical cable and Pimax Play V1.11<. This version simply didn't work at all. So he couldn't do anything else than he did in that video, since it simply didn't work.

I had exactly the same experience, huge connection issues/stutters with the optical cable/old software version. So what did I do? I waited with my review until this was solved, and Pimax did solve all that. What did Will do? He didn't wait and published his review.

What do I expect now from Will? A new review of the Crystal where he finally got it working with a new affiliate link under it where he will hype about the visuals of the Crystal. He already said in his BSB video that the visuals of the Crystal are clearly better.

Let's wait and see but that's what I expect that he will do and then he will still get his affiliate link Pimax money.

Edit: I expect an comparison video. Where he will have two affiliated links BSB and Crystal.

 

[cnhoff]

I have seen so many Crystal reviews and comments by now that state the setup process was flawless, some like Grim Reapers even calling it the easiest setup process they gave ever had. We should stop worrying about that.

I cannot take Will's review fully seriously either because most of his issues would have been non-existent if he had done the review a couple of weeks later.

 

[stigs2cousin]

I cannot take Will's review fully seriously either because most of his issues would have been non-existent if he had done the review a couple of weeks later.

I friendly disagree.

It´s not on the reviewer to jump through hoops to make a product look good.
His job is to give a fair and accurate assesment of the product at the time he had it in his hands
(as the manufacturer delivered it to be reviewed. Pimax was fully aware where they sent their headset.)

Will has also posted updates when his view on products changed, for example when positively reviewed hydraulic pedals started leaking.

I´m no fan of Will´s, especially for his waffling about the most expensive simrig ever and his "hyperrealistic" sim racing videos. It´s a frigging triple screen setup ffs.

But Pimax cockup is not on him.

 

[cnhoff]

But Pimax cockup is not on him.

I get your point and agree on this being Pimax fault and Will's job not being debugging issues that have certainly been there.

I just question the value of a review video that seems clearly outdated in it's main statements only 2 weeks after it has been released. There should be an update video.

 

[RCHeliguy]

The BSB and Crystal are basically Polar Opposites which is going to stir up debate. Seriously how could it not?

Mbucchia who writes the DFR software enabling both the Aero and Crystal has said the Crystal is heavy and gets tiring after a while. He does like the Crystal displays better.

On one side the argument is that the displays are everything and weight and size and batteries don't matter. Using an existing bulky enclosure with no optimization is fine. Having a pile of extra functionality included that may someday work is fine. Hand controllers aren't that important and hardware that doesn't inspire trust long term is fine.

On the other hand you have a minimalist design highly optimized for size and weight using well known and proven tracking. It is customized just for you and has only what you need for PCVR use.

So the only way to give the BSB credit would be to consider optimized weight and size important and since Pimax completely ignored these design considerations it seems like a dividing wall that will be hard to cross.

Suggesting that they add features that the BSB doesn't have is missing the point.

I don't see this chasm going away.

I also have no problem with people having different priorities than me. Everyone votes with their wallet to help the manufacturer with the features they value most survive.

 

[cnhoff]

it seems like a dividing wall that will be hard to cross.

Exactly.

The BSB does not have bad visuals by any means, they are great, the Pimax is just better in that respect.

Equally you cannot argue with the BSB being in a totally different ballpark regarding it's size and weight.

Everybody chose their poison.

 

[stigs2cousin]

I just question the value of a review video that seems clearly outdated in it's main statements only 2 weeks after it has been released. There should be an update video.

We agree there , too.

As said before Pimax dropped the ball here and now needs to convince Will to give it another try.
When I read you correctly ( I fear the complexity of VR´s software side and so don´t occupy myself with the topic) this could prove a bit of a challenge as he is "smitten" with the BSB.

 

[RCHeliguy]

We agree there , too.

As said before Pimax dropped the ball here and now needs to convince Will to give it another try.
When I read you correctly ( I fear the complexity of VR´s software side and so don´t occupy myself with the topic) this could prove a bit of a challenge as he is "smitten" with the BSB.

And I totally get the complexity of VR comment.

Nvidia releases a new GPU Driver ( is it stable, doesn't it improve performance )
Various Base software packages ( Varjo, Pimax, etc.. have their own software to keep updated)
Dynamic Foveated rendering support ( this is one plugin per title per headset and only if it is available ) We don't have a standard for DFR support making this yet another step. You have to download the plugin, keep it up to date and configure it per title.

With the BSB, he simply plugs it in to his computer and it runs natively. It doesn't require him to install or configure anything else.

Frankly I get wanting simplicity. When I look at the number of things I need to update to make something work the best it can, it gets to be a bit much at times.

Now put yourself in his shoes. Keeping all that stuff up to date for the Aero and Crystal and then getting a BSB and simply plugging it in and using it.

I'm sure that feels refreshing!

I had just installed the initial mbucchia plugin for DCS DFR and then Varjo updated it's base software allowing addition support and DCS updated it's software offering native DFR and improved multi-core use. I had to uninstall my least mbucchia plugin that bypassed the stock DCS startup, update Varjo base, DCS, and install the new plugin.

Now imagine you are trying to keep up with that for both the Aero and Pimax which I'm sure has had a number of software updates with more coming soon like DFR support.

Now just plug in the BSB and use it out of the box while getting surprising good performance without configuring DFR. As a YouTuber with all the other video streaming he sets up for capture, you have to know that this is a huge win.

 

[cnhoff]

We agree there , too.

As said before Pimax dropped the ball here and now needs to convince Will to give it another try.
When I read you correctly ( I fear the complexity of VR´s software side and so don´t occupy myself with the topic) this could prove a bit of a challenge as he is "smitten" with the BSB.

And that's totally fine, let him be a happy camper with the BSB, it is definitely worth it.

It seems now that the major and most minor issues are sorted out, setting up the Crystal is actually easy and not prone to issues at all anymore.

Same seems to be true for the BSB. But you also have to say it simply does not offer many features to set-up like dynamic foveated Rendering, so of course it works better out-of-the-box. Again, Pimax going forward with unfinished SW is not a smart move, I guess shipping the BSB 3 months ago would have led to similar issues with very early adopters.

One thing that is more for the experienced VR users is the whole OpenXR and OpenXR Toolkit topic, but frankly, running a third part application in the background and optionally making some settings in an overlay should jot be too overwhelming.

 

[RCHeliguy]

I'm going to call out @HoiHman for this one since he said he was lurking and I know he had issues making the Index fit well.

Quoting another Index user.

" I have an asymetrical IPD and my fce shape doesn't match my Index well. In order for me to be center of the lens, the top part of the face gasket has to be on the lowest part of my brow which is not comfortable. I generally have to use the HMD's a bit higher than normal thus not being in the sweet spot. Then of course my IPD slider is symetrical so I get to choose which eye will be clear"

This brings up a few issues with generic VR interfaces and IPD adjustment.

I "thought" my IPD was 66 when I had my Index. My Aero auto IPD adjusted me to 64.5. Then I found out from my optometrist that I am 31.5 and 30.5 for 62mm. I recently saw a guy who mentioned he had an IPD of 64 with 33.5 left and 30.5 right.

All headsets with IPD adjustment sliders move the lenses symmetrically this includes the Aero and Crystal for auto-IPD. That means that some users needs adjust the headset sideways off center for the displays if their eyes are not close to the same distance off center.

The BSB can use different offset inserts on each side to get within 1mm of your measurement for each eye to center each display to the headset and then create a facial interface to center your face on the headset so everything matches up.

Personally I thought the Index fit me well and was comfortable. However my Rift CV1 actually fit my face better. The fact is that the out of the box interfaces are not going to fit everyone well and I've heard people say that a particular headset didn't fit them and they went with something else instead. They are going to fit most people comfortably, but others are just SOL.

I'm not saying that everyone has issues with this, but for some people the BSB may be the first time that they have their VR displays properly centered in front of their eyes or had a headset fit their face in a comfortable way.

 

[wajdi]

I wouldn’t trust this guy and his reviews about VR.. he said himself that he isn’t a vr enthusiast. His vr reviews are very generic. I’m sure he doesn’t know what color shifts or CA or distorsione mean.

 

[RCHeliguy]

The negative take aways:
Once again sweating in it isn't a great thing.
Brad is very sensitive to persistence and has it set to 50% brightness to keep that issue under control. He also noted glare being noticeable.
It won't give you a bright sunny day in VR as well as other headsets.
The pancake lenses are not as advanced as the Quest Pro in terms of edge to edge clarity or glare control.

On the other hand he has a Varjo VR3 and still thinks the BSB visuals are fantastic and it is still his go to headset because of its comfort. He did say that the color it has is better than anything in LED space without QLED and it has better blacks.

 

[gamma123152]

I wouldn’t trust this guy and his reviews about VR.. he said himself that he isn’t a vr enthusiast. His vr reviews are very generic. I’m sure he doesn’t know what color shifts or CA or distorsione mean.

100%, that was exactly my point. I should have known better at the time too, when I ordered the Aero based on his "advice".

The video that I posted here from Marco for example is really informative, he knows about VR and what he's talking about.

I had to explain before to Will what OpenComposite / OpenXR toolkit is about one year ago! He never even heared of it!

I had a long chat with Marco too, he really knows all ins and outs of VR. Will is indeed not the right guy for VR reviews.

 

[wajdi]

״Brad revealed that its the actual display panel on the Beyond that upscales from 1900x1900 to 2500x2500 at 90fps״
Lol

 

[gamma123152]

״Brad revealed that its the actual display panel on the Beyond that upscales from 1900x1900 to 2500x2500 at 90fps״
Lol

If that's true then the BSB won't be even usable for sim racing. Upscaling like that always comes with clearly visual sacrificed image quality. I cannot find anything about that on Beyonds website. I'm surprised that the flight sim guy didn't mention it in his first impressions, maybe he used only 75Hz? With flight sims it won't be an issue but with sim racing it is an deal braker. I would only use 75hz for ACC until the 5090 is released but surely not for everything else... And I never even tried 75Hz so maybe I couldn't even handle it with ACC, because 60Hz on the G2 gave massive flickering and gave me an headache within a few minutes.

 

[HoiHman]

I'm going to call out @HoiHman for this one since he said he was lurking and I know he had issues making the Index fit well.

I think you must have misunderstood.

I never had issues with the Index fit wel. Out of the box it's the most comfortable headset i have tried up to date. But in general i don't like the pressure of an HMD to my face.

My mod make the index hang in front of my face, just touching it with no pressure.

One of the first things i thought when i saw will's review was that i would not be comfortable with an HMD that needs to be pressure tight on your face.

I don't care about any light bleed since i always play in a dark room.

Still waiting for the Index 2. With my track record on trying other headsets i an reluctant to a BSB because of the resell value.

My next HMD should be of certain standard and quality that i don't care about newer versions any more. Like my Samsung 49" monitor, there's 3 or 4 newer versions witch all might be better but my current one is more then good enough.

But honestly the index 2 takes way too long and doubt i will ever come