Is VR dead?

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Hmm, last 3 posts on VR flight sim guys BSB thread state they will either get a Crystal or not get a BSB after hearing Steve say the Crystals visual quality is still without a doubt better than the BSB.

Hopefully they enjoy what they get.

In the end that's all that matters.

I think some people would be happy with either if they believe it's the best. Others will have issues with one or the other because of their priorities or sensitivities.
 
Just reaffirms that I'm going to love this headset!

His main issue was glare which is much less than the Index and I never noticed it with the Index. He also mentioned that after a couple hours he thought it felt a little clammy. He did say that after an hour or so with it he must have adapted to it because he stopped noticing the glare.

Basically he thinks the field of view is excellent, the blacks are better than local dimming and will blow your socks off and he said that it was definitely bright enough and that microphone is better than any other microphone out there.

An interesting comment was that this is the first VR Headset that you actually look cool wearing.

Since making the video, he has also said that he want's to be clear that the BSB does not outresolve the Crystal/Aero. He said there is a noticeable difference.

To be clear I was not expecting the BSB to look better to him than either the Crystal or Aero. His movements are all smooth and he is perfectly happy wearing a "comfy helmet" We are still at the stage of making compromises based on our personal priorities. For me the BSB has plenty of serious upsides that I'm excited about because of how I used my headset and my priorities. I'm NOT expecting everyone with an Aero or Crystal to get a BSB, although some will.

I'm actually surprised at the number of Aero owners who ordered a BSB and how many others ordered both a Crystal and a BSB. There should be a LOT of comparisons between them coming up in the next 3-4 months.
I just saw the video and I noticed (besides the hype, of course he hopes that people click on his affiliate link and order one, same as MRTV/Sebastian does; he also hypes everything on default first) the following things that he noted on the negative side:
- it doesn't compete to the Crystal for edge to edge clarity
- it's not as bright as the Crystal
- maybe little bit less sweetspot then pico 4 on the edges
- has glare/smudging at edges, while there is zero glare at the crystal, "the glare is kind of spoiling it for me" "some kind of foggy on edges"
- less FoV vertically as the Crystal (horizonally also when I look at all measurements/opinions until now but he didn't mention that in this video specifically)
- "lack of ventilation", "it's a bit like a vacuum", "you will feel clamby after a while"
- "I do still feel that the Crystal is the very best image quality that you can get in VR"

On the positive side he noted:
- 75Hz, I would really like to have that on the Crystal as an addition for ACC/future titles(and flight sims once I start with that)
- small size, impressive what can be done these days with such a small hmd
- amazing visuals during night flying
- amazing microphone(I don't use it)

But to be honest, I don't see what upsides it actually has over the Crystal? Except Pimax's company history (but I have a great experience), 75Hz, lighthouse tracking without mod's/extra costs/faceplate or dongle, night racing/flying and the size of the HMD (but the Crystal is super comforable for me, and I don't have the ventilation/vacuum/clamby issue, so maybe it's not even a real benefit of the BSB... because he's not the first one to talk about this subject in a worrisome way).

The Crystal is IMO still the better option. It has over the BSB: even better resolution, even better clarity, no glare, way more nits, adjustable IPD, more FoV, eye tracking(almost, makes a HUGE difference in terms of performance in titles as DCS/ACC) so simply better visuals when compared side by side.
If he is getting clammy with just civillian flight sim then whats going to happen in racing where your heart rate climbs and you have much more exertion.
How much someone sweats in a HMD varies a lot from person to person. That's my experience until now. But yes in sim racing you would surely sweat a lot more than in flight simming... I had issues with the G2's heat regarding sweat/fogging, issues that I don't have with the Crystal but a friend of me even sweats with the Crystal, this while it has 2 small fans/the Crystal is cool/not hot at all, but it's just because of the intensity of the sim racing itself+high summer temp's probably.

So if you combine that with a non breating material and non cooled displays(as with the BSB), then it could become an issue for sim racing indeed.

A small Crystal update for the one's that own one: I managed to solve the blooming for 100% while keeping the maximum black performance as is possible with the Crystal (slightly less good as OLED, but as close as neglectable): this simply by chaning the config.json in the appdata / local / pimax / runtime map to: "local_dimming_black_level" : 0.01 (default extreme setting is 0(this creates blooming) and second option is highlights(this solves blooming but has more grey blacks)). Pimax is insane that they didn't make this the default for the Crystal.
 
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Different priorities lead to different choices. I see piles of deal breakers with the Pimax, but that's based on my priorities.

I still see the BSB as the first of the next generation of headset and exactly the direction I want to go.

Would I love an edge to edge retina display with 180H x 120V etc. etc.. sure!

But I think the BSB hits the sweet spot for what I'm looking for right now.

I'll find out more in a couple months.
 
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Hopefully they enjoy what they get.

In the end that's all that matters.

I think some people would be happy with either if they believe it's the best. Others will have issues with one or the other because of their priorities or sensitivities.
I think they can coexist pretty good. I can totally appreciate the benefits of the BSB, but prefer the absolute best image quality of the Crystal anyway.

People have different preferences...
 
I think they can coexist pretty good. I can totally appreciate the benefits of the BSB, but prefer the absolute best image quality of the Crystal anyway.

People have different preferences...

This does seem like natural extension of the paths people were already on.
I realize that these are over generalizations and everyone is an individual. But I have seen these trends form and based on everything I continue to see, these trends are only being reinforced with time.

Image quality above all else or cost sensitivity
Odyssey -> G2 -> (Aero less common) and now Crystal

Ecosystem and cost, also ease of use and lower system power requirements.
Quest -> Quest 2 -> Quest 3 / Quest Pro

More priority on room scale VR experience and hand controller tracking, and less cost sensitivity
Index/Vive ->BSB
Index/Vive -> Aero, others -> BSB

The vast majority of people buying BSB's are not buying it as a first headset and a large percentage have already bought into lighthouse tracking.

So when I see gnashing of teeth over buying Index lighthouses and controllers, I immediately think this would be a bigger jump for them because it involves changing priorities and many talk themselves out of it.

Now there were a number of Aero owners who purchased light houses without controllers because the Aero was the high resolution leader for a couple years. Some of them are outliers. The same goes for Pimax 5KX, 8KX owners.
 
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Now that I know my headset will stay put on my face in the near future, and this issue will be gone soon, the motion of the Aero on my face is annoying me more than ever.
 
So when I see gnashing of teeth over buying Index lighthouses and controllers, I immediately think this would be a bigger jump for them because it involves changing priorities and many talk themselves out of it.

I get your point, but at 1800 bucks for the Crystal and maybe 10 times that for the rig, the price of a lighthouse is not really the reason for not buying one. Inside-Out tracking has always been sufficient for my usecases, although it is definitely not without flaws.
 
I get your point, but at 1800 bucks for the Crystal and maybe 10 times that for the rig, the price of a lighthouse is not really the reason for not buying one. Inside-Out tracking has always been sufficient for my usecases, although it is definitely not without flaws.

You are assuming only sim rig scenarios. Many others are considering these headsets.
 
You are assuming only sim rig scenarios. Many others are considering these headsets.
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You will probably get people thinking more broadly at other forums.
 
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You will probably get people thinking more broadly at other forums.

In my previous post I was talking about trends that I've been seeing.

Those trends are in general rather than specific to this group.

I'm watching a number of groups now. I'm hearing lots of back and forth by VR users with many use cases.

Those trends will also have more to do with the long term success of VR headset companies than just those represented by sim racers and that does impact us. NONE of these companies would be around just to service our needs and no one elses.

Getting no respect from some of these kids...

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This after being called a "random Internet guy".

1689543052269.png
 
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I think you said the same over six months ago and there was a little debate over it then as well. Like @cnhoff says, the dollars we are talking about for these headsets the cost of a lighthouse is no barrier from going to lighthouse from inside out.

I would agree that the vast majority that start with oculus end up staying with them but the rest is just anecdotal and I don't see it the same. I have seen plenty of people jump from one kind to another and they do it for features, not for the kind of tracking.
 
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VR shines for flight and racing sims where inside out tracking is more than sufficient.
The rest is for kids and crazy people, can't imagine someone is still jumping around the room knocking over furniture and TV sets these days. And where are the games for this sort of activity, the last and perhaps the only decent one was Half Life Alyx, and that was 3 years ago, is anyone still playing it?
As for BSB miniature size, it is unnecessary small IMO, ski googles is the perfect size for anyone without being bulky or shrunk down to unreasonable dimensions, esp. if features and comfort are compromised in the process. Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.
 
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As for BSB miniature size, it is unnecessary small IMO, ski googles is the perfect size for anyone
This is my thoughts as well. I would’ve been okay with BSG being noticeably larger and gain a lot in the FOV department.

FOV and video compression at 90hz is what’s holding me back from BSG.
 
VR shines for flight and racing sims where inside out tracking is more than sufficient.
The rest is for kids and crazy people, can't imagine someone is still jumping around the room knocking over furniture and TV sets these days. And where are the games for this sort of activity, the last and perhaps the only decent one was Half Life Alyx, and that was 3 years ago, is anyone still playing it?
As for BSB miniature size, it is unnecessary small IMO, ski googles is the perfect size for anyone without being bulky or shrunk down to unreasonable dimensions, esp. if features and comfort are compromised in the process. Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

Welcome back!
 
I watched that one and I would say it was a good review. It was clear enough that things were not to his liking in some aspects but that enough information was given for us to apply our own experience and determine if those issues would be a problem for us or not.

I have been reading about some other issues, but with not having first hand read from all the people mentioned its hard to know. There was some talk about persistence being an issue and I think that Heli noted people had removed a lot of it by turning down the brightness but people were already talking about the lack of brightness.

I remember when oculus first went to oled and they also had to combat persistence issues, I can't remember exactly but I think that they kept it under control by minimising the on time of the panel, which is hard to do if it is already not so bright but that brightness issue could be because they are already using this technique to keep the persistence under control.
 
This whole thing is a bit bizarre.

On one hand people repeatedly say that 75Hz feels like 90 and 90 feels like something less than 120 because of the ultra fast response time of the micro OLEDs.

But then people seem to have different levels of sensitivity to persistence. Interestingly enough Brad of SadlyitsBradley who has been a big proponent of the BSB is highly sensitive to this and has run the brightness as low as 0.

But then Thrillseeker doesn't appear to notice this at all and has Boosted his brightness to 130.

I'm hearing others dropped the brightness to 80% and that took care of the issue for them.

I've heard repeatedly that because and of the perfect light seal that it still has plenty of brightness at a lower light level.

This is the first generation of something entirely new and is by no means perfect.

They don't have the resources of Meta so the pancake lenses are not the same quality as in the Quest Pro. They don't have the new higher nit displays that the Apple Vision uses, so they are limited to 73-83 nits.

There is no eye tracking, pass through cameras, adjustable IPD.

Everything has been optimized for size and weight.

What it has that no other headset has are:

No light leakage.
Perfect custom fit for each person that centers you perfectly on the displays.
An IPD that won't drift.
Ultra light weight and size.
Absolute blacks
Excellent color.
Very good but not class leading resolution.
A large number of lighthouse sensors (22) twice that of the Aero.

This is not the headset for someone new to VR. It is a specialty enthusiast headset.

What I did find out was that all these years I never had my manual IPD set correctly. I typically set it around 66mm. My high tech Aero with auto IPD set me to 64.5mm. I found out from.my optometrist that my IPD is actually 62mm with 31.5mm + 30.5mm.

The software for the BSB will measure your IPD when it scans your face, but you can override the result if it doesn't match your optometrists values.

It is also something radically different from what we are used to so there will be an adjustment period to the whole concept.

Many people's knee jerk reaction will be to reject something that is very different to what they are used to and that's to be expected.

It won't be for everyone, but I can't wait to get mine.
 

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