The "What Are You Working On?" Thread

[aphidgod]

At this point I don't even care enough to banter.

 

[Kyuubeey]

Honestly I don't know how he does it with a controller. The one exception.

 

[aphidgod]

It'd make more sense if you could see how I drive IRL.

(Ok, maybe a little banter.)

And since I know some forum resident who's never contributed a thing to the community is probably furiously typing up something about being on-topic... going to be uploading a whole mess of files for the NFS class B pack tonight. It's done. Sorry I haven't been updating here, but it's physics, so I don't really get to show it off like 3d guys and skinners get to.

 

[Mascot]

But they're all approximate, because at the end of the day this is still a video game. Just try to enjoy it.

Amen to that, and we'd do well to remember it at times. I secretly enjoy a lot of cars that have technically 'incorrect' sim physics but somehow still manage to feel just as I'd expect them to on some deep unconscious level. And on the flip side some celebrated 'accurate' cars leave me baffled as they feel all kinds of wrong. I've never been one to get hung up on data and would much rather trust my own gut. I guess accurate numbers can lay down a good scientific base but then the skill of the artist needs space to breathe to try and blend digital data into a believable analogue experience.

 

[Kyuubeey]

I'd wager it's not quite that artistic. A lot of it is just figuring out creative solutions to not-obvious problems. At least when you make roadcars.

Thanks to help from Stereo and Papa at CSP, managed to figure out the rear damping setup and did some other improvements as well.

 

[stingray_SIX_TWO]

I'd wager it's not quite that artistic. A lot of it is just figuring out creative solutions to not-obvious problems. At least when you make roadcars.

View attachment 347730

Thanks to help from Stereo and Papa at CSP, managed to figure out the rear damping setup and did some other improvements as well.

Tres bien! Simply one of the coolest and most iconic french cars ever. Feels like a french E30

 

[Kyuubeey]

Tres bien! Simply one of the coolest and most iconic french cars ever. Feels like a french E30

I wish I'd have a proper model to better show which car it is, but it's a 106, not a 205. Maybe soon.

French E30 is incredibly accurate; it REALLY feels like it in the sim. "Steering focused", like they describe the E30. I guess you could say the E30 feels like a FWD car.

 

[stingray_SIX_TWO]

I wish I'd have a proper model to better show which car it is, but it's a 106, not a 205. Maybe soon.

French E30 is incredibly accurate; it REALLY feels like it in the sim. "Steering focused", like they describe the E30. I guess you could say the E30 feels like a FWD car.

Not sure I catch your drift - pun intended. But seriously, the stock E30 is the first car I tweaked setup wise and then physics as it was just so outrageously inaccurate in stock AC form. Having spent over 10 years and 200k+ miles in E30s they definitely do not feel like FWD cars actually the opposite - you steer an E30 with the gas pedal not the steering wheel. The swinging rear axle mounts do their part in keeping it incredibly stable and controllable post lift off - locking differential is a must.

I like your setup but it's still too neutral, even a 318i bites your head off post a certain amount of steering lock and minimal throttle. The 325i gives you wheel spin at full throttle up to 3rd, sometimes 4th gear. Thi is what @mclarenf1papa refered to, data can be reflected down to a tee and it will still 'feel off'.

Very much looking forward to the 106 though - sounds super fun! My only experience in a Peugeot of that era is a Diesel 309 . Great car I must say, excellent seats and well tuned suspension.

The magic of the E30 suspension is its natural tendency to self correct back into neutral. If you have good springs, dampers, tires and a locking diff you can literally throw an E30 into the turn, let it kick out and let go of the steering wheel and with the right amount of throttle it will go into opposite lock and gradually back to neutral as it levels out - true story. Only works with wheels larger than 16" though.

Going off on a tangent here, sorry. In the end it is a very light, nimble and delicate sled with a tendency to oversteer and be controllable in all regimes of traction/lift - the opposite of a 930 Porsche pretty much. What a diva that car is and it always, always demands your full attention and even then it can kill you.

Love 'em both, 10 years ago, both unfortunately sold:

 

[Kyuubeey]

Well, the first thing to do would be to put on realistic road tires (Even SV90s are old semis almost) and dial the road grip down to normal road levels. In my experience every car is too composed on track @ higher grip levels compared to what you'd expect on the road. E30 in particular changes a lot, from understeer into oversteer under throttle.

Although I do agree it's missing a bit of power-oversteer just after lifting; because the axle toes-out IRL, while in AC with my RWS, it just goes to lateral toe-out sooner. I don't think it's that off though, in every other STA car it's a pretty minute thing so I don't know why it'd not be in the E30.

I've been wanting to make a regular E30 or early M3 actually, and an early type FD. Not too fond of the understeer engineered into the later models, although they tried to alleviate it a bit on the Sport Evo; and then dialed it back into understeer with the front damping setup.

 

[stingray_SIX_TWO]

Well, the first thing to do would be to put on realistic road tires (Even SV90s are old semis almost) and dial the road grip down to normal road levels. In my experience every car is too composed on track @ higher grip levels compared to what you'd expect on the road. E30 in particular changes a lot, from understeer into oversteer under throttle.

Although I do agree it's missing a bit of power-oversteer just after lifting; because the axle toes-out IRL, while in AC with my RWS, it just goes to lateral toe-out sooner. I don't think it's that off though, in every other STA car it's a pretty minute thing so I don't know why it'd not be in the E30.

I've been wanting to make a regular E30 or early M3 actually, and an early type FD. Not too fond of the understeer engineered into the later models, although they tried to alleviate it a bit on the Sport Evo; and then dialed it back into understeer with the front damping setup.

Agreed. One thing to note though is the only component the M3 suspension shares with regular models are the rear trailing arms and that is it. Regular E30 would be epic .

 

[Kyuubeey]

Agreed. One thing to note though is the only component the M3 suspension shares with regular models are the rear trailing arms and that is it. Regular E30 would be epic .

I've been told the rear dampers were the same for every E30. Didn't look into part numbers but it sure looks that way.

They don't share the trailing arms either; IIRC it's a different part number due to the higher Shore bushings.

 

[stingray_SIX_TWO]

I've been told the rear dampers were the same for every E30. Didn't look into part numbers but it sure looks that way.

They don't share the trailing arms either; IIRC it's a different part number due to the higher Shore bushings.

Interesting, in that case it's literally no part at all. Re the dampers that is definitely false. BMW part numbers sometimes have multiple variants behind them. I can tell you that M3 used Bilstein B8 or Sachs Advantage (called something else back then) both shorter and stiffer than stock. The regular E30 M suspension had the same shortened dampers but they were softer.

 

[gecco]

....The 325i gives you wheel spin at full throttle up to 3rd, sometimes 4th gear.

I've owned an E30 325i back in the 1990s, and I don't remember to ever have wheelspin in anything higher then 2nd, and then the road had to be wet.
I do remember the car to be nimble to drive, but not exceptionally powerful. Well it's been 26 years now, maybe memory does not serve me right here...

 

[stingray_SIX_TWO]

I've owned an E30 325i back in the 1990s, and I don't remember to ever have wheelspin in anything higher then 2nd, and then the road had to be wet.
I do remember the car to be nimble to drive, but not exceptionally powerful. Well it's been 26 years now, maybe memory does not serve me right here...

Depends on the diff as well, locking one was usually 3.73:1 - that does it for sure. I remember we tested used 325s for engine health by putting it down in 5th at 180km/h - if it didn't go then the engine was done. They need to be rev'd heavily otherwise you're always lurking in the low end lack of torque. That said it's not a Ferrari.

 

[Kyuubeey]

Interesting, in that case it's literally no part at all. Re the dampers that is definitely false. BMW part numbers sometimes have multiple variants behind them. I can tell you that M3 used Bilstein B8 or Sachs Advantage (called something else back then) both shorter and stiffer than stock. The regular E30 M suspension had the same shortened dampers but they were softer.

Hm, I see. I suspected it because the car is quite understeery, but it's really difficult to gauge just from footage alone. It hits the bumpstops on acceleration, so you can't even gauge much from launching the car. It might mean that when they said every E30, they mean every normal variant.

I think I have some general fast damping forces for the B8, so I could work something out. Although there's like 3 variants of that damper alone, so I might just have to make it up best I can.
Thanks for the info.

 

[stingray_SIX_TWO]

Because of the low weight I've found that the density and rigidity of strut bearings, suspension and diff bearings/bushings and especially the rear stabilizer bar/bushings have a greater effect on neutrality, turn in and braking than the stiffness of the damper. Not sure how that is accounted for in the physics

 

[Kyuubeey]

I do simulate the relative stiffness of sta-bar bushings and I include twisting rubber bushings into the wheelrate. However deflection from flex isn't something we can do for everything. I'm already doing all I can via the RWS for the rear axle. It's possible that all of the parts on the rear of the E30 are flexing and that causes a grip loss that I can't account for.

I'd sooner pin any handling issue down to things that actually cause a measurable effect, like spring, dampers and sta-bar. The flex stuff in the control parts is mostly a consistency and feel thing.

I'm curious, have you ever driven M3s or perhaps any Evos? I've been led to believe they're somewhat different, more understeer biased than the regular E30s are. People who drove stock E30s tell me my car understeers, and people who drove M3s tell me my car oversteers, so...

 

[stingray_SIX_TWO]

I do simulate the relative stiffness of sta-bar bushings and I include twisting rubber bushings into the wheelrate. However deflection from flex isn't something we can do for everything. I'm already doing all I can via the RWS for the rear axle. It's possible that all of the parts on the rear of the E30 are flexing and that causes a grip loss that I can't account for.

I'd sooner pin any handling issue down to things that actually cause a measurable effect, like spring, dampers and sta-bar. The flex stuff in the control parts is mostly a consistency and feel thing.

I'm curious, have you ever driven M3s or perhaps any Evos? I've been led to believe they're somewhat different, more understeer biased than the regular E30s are. People who drove stock E30s tell me my car understeers, and people who drove M3s tell me my car oversteers, so...

We have to separate feel and accuracy as you say. Have I driven M3/Evos? No. I know people who build/race/tune them so I can check with them no problem.

What I can say is a stock E30 never understeers. Even with 17" rims it doesn't happen. With 14" on anything over 150hp it is downright scary if you're not in love with drifting.

You have to consider that 99% of those on the road have shot bushings and other tear and wear so I can safely say most people do not know how a stock E30 actually drives. I've been through this myself having driven one for 5+ years and then rebuilt the suspension (including the rear axle frame bushings that no one ever bothers to replace) and believe me until then I had never 'driven' an E30.

Are the M models less oversteery? Definitely. The wider track in addition to the different susp geometry account for that alone.

BMWs are like airplanes, they will last forever but need constant and costly preventative maintenance. Most suspensions are simply not representative of what the design (=data) intends them to be due to tear and wear. I wish they'd always overengineered the parts so I'd have to change them less frequently but it's the same with the rod bearings on virtually all S engines. If they'd be thicker and longer lasting you wouldn't have that super low friction which enables rapid reving up and down.

 

[Kyuubeey]

Yes, that's very true. A similar situation is happening with the Nissan S-cars, where almost no stock examples exist anymore. Anything that's kind of stock doesn't have OE parts anymore. It's a real pain in my ass when I'm trying to create physics for them.

Luckily, there's at least a lot of documentation on the GT-R. I just wish Best Motoring had done some testing on the E30s when they were coming out.

 

[stingray_SIX_TWO]

Yes, that's very true. A similar situation is happening with the Nissan S-cars, where almost no stock examples exist anymore. Anything that's kind of stock doesn't have OE parts anymore. It's a real pain in my ass when I'm trying to create physics for them.

Luckily, there's at least a lot of documentation on the GT-R. I just wish Best Motoring had done some testing on the E30s when they were coming out.

What do you need? I pretty much know all the E30 gurus in Germany plus some people in BMW Munich so if it's a question relating to stock values I can probably get it.