Tactile Immersion - General Discussion - Hardware & Software

[boern69]

Dunno sorry but Mr latte knows...

@Mr Latte
thx for ur advice but I disagree
I am very happy with those shakers and it takes me half an hour to tune one with this extra mass
+ mounting plate
The costs are relative low about 15€ so its 28€ for each tuned this is a good deal imo

This mod is known since 2009 know and tested in several Hifi forums by quite a lot of people with
success
Test it by yourself and after u can tell what u think

Beside the shakers can only deliver up to 55hz and tuned even lower.
I dont need more - as I said already this is meant for low frequenzy effects
Higher come later with some additional shakers with other bandwith .

If I would have asked u before I did this build -u sure have told me it is cheap
or will not have the effect I dream of.
But the result topped my expectations - So I am happy I did this.

Don't get me wrong - but spending another 100 bucks on an exciter or equilizer
sounds to me like playing with money.
I can simply turn up the volume - because it only effects a bandwith off a few Hz ->setup in simhub.

I am very thankful for all the tips and knowledgeand time- but plz as
an expert u should know that a speaker /shaker is spring + piston mass system
and the only way to signicantly change the resonance frequency of a speaker is to play around with the spring (+magnet) the piston mass of the speaker.

Plz dont be angry because its not meant by me -I would welcome
if u show more pics of urs build progress and layer design!!!
to get deeper into this .
With the last result -racing with tactile I am totally convinced that this is
the best tool for immersion ever even with small budget.

 

[Dan Costa]

Dunno sorry but Mr latte knows...

@Mr Latte
thx for ur advice but I disagree
I am very happy with those shakers and it takes me half an hour to tune one with this extra mass
+ mounting plate
The costs are relative low about 15€ so its 28€ for each tuned this is a good deal imo

This mod is known since 2009 know and tested in several Hifi forums by quite a lot of people with
success
Test it by yourself and after u can tell what u think

Beside the shakers can only deliver up to 55hz and tuned even lower.
I dont need more - as I said already this is meant for low frequenzy effects
Higher come later with some additional shakers with other bandwith .

If I would have asked u before I did this build -u sure have told me it is cheap
or will not have the effect I dream of.
But the result topped my expectations - So I am happy I did this.

Don't get me wrong - but spending another 100 bucks on an exciter or equilizer
sounds to me like playing with money.
I can simply turn up the volume - because it only effects a bandwith off a few Hz ->setup in simhub.

I am very thankful for all the tips and knowledgeand time- but plz as
an expert u should know that a speaker /shaker is spring + piston mass system
and the only way to signicantly change the resonance frequency of a speaker is to play around with the spring (+magnet) the piston mass of the speaker.

Plz dont be angry because its not meant by me -I would welcome
if u show more pics of urs build progress and layer design!!!
to get deeper into this .
With the last result -racing with tactile I am totally convinced that this is
the best tool for immersion ever even with small budget.

Hi

Where can I read more about modding that shaker? I would like to make it stronger bellow 35hz

 

[Mr Latte]

The 1000 model should be fine

Dunno sorry but Mr latte knows...

@Mr Latte
thx for ur advice but I disagree
I am very happy with those shakers and it takes me half an hour to tune one with this extra mass
+ mounting plate
The costs are relative low about 15€ so its 28€ for each tuned this is a good deal imo

This mod is known since 2009 know and tested in several Hifi forums by quite a lot of people with
success
Test it by yourself and after u can tell what u think

Beside the shakers can only deliver up to 55hz and tuned even lower.
I dont need more - as I said already this is meant for low frequenzy effects
Higher come later with some additional shakers with other bandwith .

If I would have asked u before I did this build -u sure have told me it is cheap
or will not have the effect I dream of.
But the result topped my expectations - So I am happy I did this.

Don't get me wrong - but spending another 100 bucks on an exciter or equilizer
sounds to me like playing with money.
I can simply turn up the volume - because it only effects a bandwith off a few Hz ->setup in simhub.

I am very thankful for all the tips and knowledgeand time- but plz as
an expert u should know that a speaker /shaker is spring + piston mass system
and the only way to signicantly change the resonance frequency of a speaker is to play around with the spring (+magnet) the piston mass of the speaker.

Plz dont be angry because its not meant by me -I would welcome
if u show more pics of urs build progress and layer design!!!
to get deeper into this .
With the last result -racing with tactile I am totally convinced that this is
the best tool for immersion ever even with small budget.

Well, firstly I'm not angry or annoyed if you are enjoying the tactile you have. I enjoy people sharing their own experiences and different views or perspectives. You don't have to agree with my opinions either or take on board my recommendations.

It's good that you are enjoying the immersion. You are however (it appears) basing what you feel with no comparisons or possibly limited experience to other units and what they can achieve. So just to confirm, you are welcome to tell us what comparisons you have done to then quantify how well this mod really is operating to other units?

By saying you now have "immense punch" I have to ponder and attempt to quantify what that is for you as to what it is to someone that has large BK units or other more serious tactile hardware over the budget option you are modding. If you link the unit you have then we can follow with your suggested mod to help better determine what it is achieving in relation to other units.

You certainly are gaining an improvement over the normal output of the unit, that is good but how does that unit with a mod compare with others that are more capable? If it brings satisfaction, does it not make you even more curious to actually consider now buying into better hardware?

Now I am not being a smart ass here, but will you take into consideration the tactile I have tested and the differences they have in performance. It's not a boast but as a hobbyist over the last two years, I have tried 14 different tactile/shaker models. So I think I can relate quite well to the differences they bring or the pros/cons they have.

Let me advise anyone here and I think Anton even suggested the same having been impressed with what they offer at their price. People ask what tactile should they start with or get for tactile. I also advise you to go and buy two of the 40W affordable shakers, then expand with more or larger units if you want.

Comparisons
I very much would like your own input on how the exciter performs when being directly mounted to the seat. Then compare with some effects to what you currently have and especially with effects like engine RPM. I say this as (if comparing specs) there is a great deal of detail you are still missing in the upper-frequency range with the unit you are using. Many effects benefit from using 60-100Hz and can output nice harmonics beyond this. If the unit you have is not generating these then its not something I can just say it doesn't matter.

The recommended exciters are also actually quite good with enhancing music as well but do need some additional EQ (via soundcard) to drop down the higher Hz with full range audio sources like music or game audio.

Boosting dB & Frequency Range
I attempted to illustrate how an increase in dB be it generated by some form of ballast/leverage etc or just by signal gain greatly changes the frequencies being actively felt from a "center value" tone. I even used one of the peak frequencies for budget tactile at 40Hz. You can see the increase not just for the center value being used but it widens the "Q factor" and slope or range of frequencies that are then at 0dB or above it.

This is what you're feeling, with your mod. Indeed you're getting a boost in the mid-range bass frequencies both in intensity and with some additional range, that's why it feels more robust, fuller and stronger.

What you're not getting, is proper low-end frequency response and it accompanied with several hundred watts in output. Any proper or serious quality subs or tactile units need hundreds of watts in output for the bandwidth the lowest frequencies contain. Additionally, they need quality amplification that can deliver these lowest frequencies as many amps will not achieve this. Amps like the ones I recommend are based for powering large woofer drivers so are ideal for Earthquake and BK shakers.

Your "immense punch" in my view is not close to what lowest bass energy offers. I think you still have a lot to discover both in what low-end frequencies can deliver and what upper frequencies can bring in detail. What you may be experiencing is that 40Hz-50Hz with strong output but even the exciters deliver this remarkably well to a point you will turn them down. Simply because as highlighted before certain Hz suit certain volumes in output even if this varies for each person. This is evident in volume for effect layers based on the Hz used for them.

Slow Progress
My own build will be shared, I am expecting delivery of various ordered items needed so that I can soon start on putting the seat section together. It will showcase how a build can start with affordable exciters mounted to a seat yet then add more and extensive units.

The experiment in that it is will not be limited with the "less is more" scenario as my own seat will have an arrangement of 16 small-large units. Yes, that seems crazy but with suggested/wanted features kindly added to Simhub. This will enable many possible arrangements for how effects are distributed to specific units. Also made easy with saving different profiles for each configuration in it requires no alteration to the installation.

The concept aims at avoiding the limitations of too many effects on a single unit and even supports having certain effects go into the seat from not one but multiple places at once. Alternatively, we can specifically distribute low/mid/high bass effect layers to specific models that are accomplished at delivering those frequency bands. Each approach will be explored as only with testing can I discover what each can bring in immersion.

 

[Mr Latte]

Hi, new to the group here, I have searched through pretty much all of the previous pages but cannot find a straight forward answer so need advice, sorry if this has already been asked and I missed it. I am looking to add a Buttkicker LFE and a ADX Maximus to my rig, I am torn between buying a NX1000D or a NX3000D, I really just need to know will 1 NX1000D be capable of running 1 LFE and 1 ADX Maximus? if I ever wanted to expand I would buy another amp but for now this is my entry point so don't want to overspend if I can help it. thanks in advance.

The wattage you need is partly determined by how and where the LFE is installed. At a seat or pedals it's energy is more direct. People placing them on outer corners usually waste much of their energy, as it can and will disperse all over connecting parts of the rig and they likely won't even feel. Therefore often they will require more wattage to get the best out of the unit.

The NX1000D will have enough output that I can confirm. Although the 3000 model will use less of its capacity which some like to have the amp operating well within its limits. It's not a massive increase in price and if you see one day maybe wanting 2 large BK then its maybe the better buy in the long term.

You can however increase the input level from the soundcard into the amp via the crossover with the DSP. Although this can also be done with other hardware like headphone amps or mixer units. A higher input gain for the amp will generate more output with the same wattage used on the amp.

These options can also bring simple volume controls for multiple channels, so they are easier within reach if you desire such. Basically as a convenience factor means you can easily fiddle with the volume for each unit without having to reach to the amps individual volumes or software volume sliders.

I used this in the past as its a neat and compact 4 channel option. Will be putting a couple on ebay soon. I found having them at the seat really handy for realtime adjustments as my amps were beyond reach from the seat.

 

[Wmacky]

Mr Latte,

Do we Have a tally on how many have at least purchased the required 6 exciters, and required amps? How many with SFX?

I'm still in the have purchased / doing SFX owner group, but unfortunately still under construction!

I have 2 weeks of house remodel left before I'm given a additional hobby room just for VR, and the SFX cockpit. Only then can I start finally assembly of my P-1 / SFX though the actuators and the tactile / servo drive server rack is complete.

I think you are on the right track with this idea. Seems like installing transducers at the cockpit extremities is a big waste on energy, and money. These units need to be at the seat and at the feet where can be better felt, and with a better sense of direction. The many tactile "seat pad" owners seem very pleased with the results of this idea. I've never been able to get my head around spreading out the traducers when all the vibs have to enter the seat mounting at the same locations. loosing massive energy along the way. This has to kill all direction

 

[boern69]

@dan
u can find rockwood shakers on google

https://www.beisammen.de/index.php?thread/30042-pollin-bzw-billigshaker-tuning/
https://www.openadaptronik.de/aktoren-geht-es-auch-guenstig-post_12/

here are pics how to tune them / I only took profiles as piston mass and mad a mounting plate
and put 2 together horizontal behind the seat (photos links already posted.

DIY 2009

Here is a "How to in german"
if u wanna use the mod with M8 screws instead M6
"
1 die Popniete auf der Unterseite ausbohren (Bohrer 6mm) am besten vorher die Unterseite abkleben damit keine Späne in den Shaker kommen (falls es doch dazu kommt -> Pressluft ausblasen)
2 Stift entfernen
3 Loch (Kunststoff) aufbohren auf 8mm
4 Schraube + Unterlegscheibe durch
5 Gewicht dran z.b. 1,25 kg Hantelscheibe oder Hammerhopf oder Schweres Profil (hab ich benutzt)
6 für den horizontalen Doppelshaker sind es 2,5 kg geht aber auch 4kg dabei müssen aber beide in die gleiche Richtung d.h. in meinem Fall siehe Bild musste ich einen umpolen
7 "1 umpolen"hab ich aber auch bei den beiden vorderen gemacht d.h. einer zieht nach unten und gleichzeitig drückt der andere hoch
"

@Mr Latte
THX for your thoughts

PLZ post some more pics of ur project if possible

Of course I am curious what some more expensive Basskickers etc will
improve but for now this is serious hardware for me
it works and is effordable .
I can only compare with BS 250 sinustec shakers and only compare 4 speaker chassis
road effect (nothing mounted directly to the seat ->but as I said this will come with the new shakers
coming later )
But if I compare what I have now it is a very big improvement what I did not expect so before.
Maybe its important to mention that the new rig might be a reason for this as well
->leightweight ->less stiff ->dampening mor in the middle ->wood ->swinging

But as I said I will test BK later for comparison .

These are the only effects I run ATM with 4 Rockwood tuned shakers
and it outperforms my "old" rig

 

[Mr Latte]

Mr Latte,

Do we Have a tally on how many have at least purchased the required 6 exciters, and required amps? How many with SFX?

I'm still in the have purchased / doing SFX owner group, but unfortunately still under construction!

I have 2 weeks of house remodel left before I'm given a additional hobby room just for VR, and the SFX cockpit. Only then can I start finally assembly of my P-1 / SFX though the actuators and the tactile / servo drive server rack is complete.

I think you are on the right track with this idea. Seems like installing transducers at the cockpit extremities is a big waste on energy, and money. These units need to be at the seat and at the feet where can be better felt, and with a better sense of direction. The many tactile "seat pad" owners seem very pleased with the results of this idea. I've never been able to get my head around spreading out the traducers when all the vibs have to enter the seat mounting at the same locations. loosing massive energy along the way. This has to kill all direction

Appreciate your views, the concept for the 6 channel exciters on the seat is like a "seat pad" but the recommended unit far exceeds what small motors can achieve in frequency range and detail. The important factor is the direct installation to the seat for greater detailing to the body regions. This is especially noticed with higher frequencies and harmonics in which detail can be lost with typical installations or less capable units. So I can assure you, this is a very good basis to start from and I say that having spent over 2 years testing different installations with various tactile. Its also now only possible with recent improvements Simhub has made available.

I have only shared my own most recent effects with 3-4 people so far but they are not SFX owners. I am purposely not sharing these "multichannel effects" unless people have the same exciters and show their installations. This won't please everyone and sure enough, I got flack for this from Flag Ghost on the Discord channel. It's not about me wanting people to copy what I am doing but if people appreciate my testing/creativity and perspective on this and the time that goes into building effects then they should also know it's for a reason.

The whole point is to have the same primary units installed to the seat. Thus to ensure as best possible we have a fixed hardware platform. This then helps ensure everyone gets as close as possible to the same sensations from the effects being used. Also how the 6 channels can be utilised to work together for the shoulders, sides and spine.

So my intention is, that this will give people easy access to really good effects from just loading a profile. Then altering volumes to their taste. This is the problem with people having very different installations and different tactile hardware and this was highlighted with past trials and with SSW or Simvibe which also had their own limitations that Simhub does not.

With a fixed solution, people can then share their own profiles knowing they should work quite well. If people then add to these with tactile in the pedals or additional units that's fine as its for them to discover and do so if they wish.

I do not expect people to follow me with multiple large BK or TST units also being installed. However people wiil be able to use effect layers specifically made for the TST or BK units that my own build will incorporate and effects are being made for. So someone with just one large BK unit will be able to use effect layers or methods of enhancing effects the exciters also offer.

I think Anton is close to having 6 units installed and if/when he's ready or interested then he is free to test and give his own views on how well he thinks these new/latest effects work with SFX. I have been working on two options with focus on engines and another profile with focus on directional effects.

Large units are still needed for the very best lowest bass and it brings its own benefits to the immersion and energy for many effects. Including, engine Idle, engine torque, positional bumps, g forces, braking forces and impacts.

 

[Mr Latte]

@dan
u can find rockwood shakers on google

https://www.beisammen.de/index.php?thread/30042-pollin-bzw-billigshaker-tuning/
https://www.openadaptronik.de/aktoren-geht-es-auch-guenstig-post_12/

here are pics how to tune them / I only took profiles as piston mass and mad a mounting plate
and put 2 together horizontal behind the seat (photos links already posted.

DIY 2009

Here is a "How to in german"
if u wanna use the mod with M8 screws instead M6
"
1 die Popniete auf der Unterseite ausbohren (Bohrer 6mm) am besten vorher die Unterseite abkleben damit keine Späne in den Shaker kommen (falls es doch dazu kommt -> Pressluft ausblasen)
2 Stift entfernen
3 Loch (Kunststoff) aufbohren auf 8mm
4 Schraube + Unterlegscheibe durch
5 Gewicht dran z.b. 1,25 kg Hantelscheibe oder Hammerhopf oder Schweres Profil (hab ich benutzt)
6 für den horizontalen Doppelshaker sind es 2,5 kg geht aber auch 4kg dabei müssen aber beide in die gleiche Richtung d.h. in meinem Fall siehe Bild musste ich einen umpolen
7 "1 umpolen"hab ich aber auch bei den beiden vorderen gemacht d.h. einer zieht nach unten und gleichzeitig drückt der andere hoch
"

@Mr Latte
THX for your thoughts

PLZ post some more pics of ur project if possible

Of course I am curious what some more expensive Basskickers etc will
improve but for now this is serious hardware for me
it works and is effordable .
I can only compare with BS 250 sinustec shakers and only compare 4 speaker chassis
road effect (nothing mounted directly to the seat ->but as I said this will come with the new shakers
coming later )
But if I compare what I have now it is a very big improvement what I did not expect so before.
Maybe its important to mention that the new rig might be a reason for this as well
->leightweight ->less stiff ->dampening mor in the middle ->wood ->swinging

But as I said I will test BK later for comparison .

These are the only effects I run ATM with 4 Rockwood tuned shakers
and it outperforms my "old" rig

Please upload or share your profile on the Discord channel. I will then monitor the effects with the settings you have. If it impresses you then it should be worth sharing with others.

I don't quite see your current approach or solution as being as worthwhile in comparison to what I have been testing and recommend. Nothing personal or that it maybe isn't good/enjoyable but simply because the exciters

• Perform great
• Are affordable
• Easily powered by budget or affordable amps
• Work great when combined together in sets
• Need no converting/modding for punchy bass
• Can match and even in some ways outperform larger or more expensive models

In multiple sets of them working directly to the body regions, we can also enjoy not just more detailing, clearer representation of the effects but also having more effects operating as well.

As a consideration, is it time perhaps people start to look past this old concept of 2 units in the front and 2 in the rear as CM. With maybe one on the shifter and an engine unit at the back of the seat like additional EM-based installation. All this offering the goto installation approach or one that's most ideal? Of course this installation layout, is done by lots of people but regardless if a person is using a modded budget unit or high-quality units I am certain from testing we now can improve it further.

You or others can take on board this advice being given or choose to ignore it. What I can say is my own testing with body-zones was conclusive to confirm to me for a seats potential immersion with tactile it was indeed the direction to go for a better and more involving experience. The multichannel approach also gets past some shortcomings we have with typical installations.

Seat Bumps Example:
One example if desired is to have L/R bumps going to 3 units per side for much better stereo placement and nicer immersion. Different approaches can be done but I have even tested this in the following way by having different settings for the activity and response of different bumps and these working together doing more than a single unit per side can and with much better coverage for the whole upper body:

• Small lively bumps = Shoulders
• General bumps = Sides
• Large bumps = Spine
• Heavy impacts = All

 

[boern69]

"I think you are on the right track with this idea. Seems like installing transducers at the cockpit extremities is a big waste on energy, and money"

I cannot agree with that statement above "..." sorry
Many of tactile feedback comes over the wheels of the car and its body
simhub covers this in a very good way
If u use small BKs or even modded shakers with only 100W for every wheel u have the choice not to waste
to much energy and money.
IMO its important to get an effect of (swinging) arround 20hz (-10hz +5hz) feels natural
like a car between 60mph -140mph
If ur rig is leightweight and allows swinging u get movement at every single simulated wheel
this movement is similar to d-box motion system and reacts very fast and precize
The movement is not so big but about 10-20%
If u have to move big masses it certainly will not work well

Effects at the seat are great and they could be also devided into
moving effect low 20hz (-10hz +5hz)
to move the complete seat + different effects high with several direct mounted devices <-awesome
But the same as with the rig the seat (should have a small mass)
should allow this movement even moves are
smaller than a dof system - its very conrete punchy and precize
because its tactile -and faster

Again leightweight + swinging is the trick to save ur money

 

[Mr Latte]

@boern69

It would help if you showed more images of your rig that we can properly see it and you illustrate things better. I agree that isolation and decoupling the seat, in particular, will improve the tactile energy. However, that's not to say the cheapest isolators off ebay available will work as well as others. For my own endeavors, I played around with some different compounds and materials. I liked having a small amount of squishy element and then firmer support with using more isolators to balance/support the weight rather than using super hard ones but others may like something else. I did find it helps give that little sense of rebound to increase the felt vibrations and this more evident with some frequencies than others.

You are making some bold claims in what this budget/modified unit achieves in output and its "immense punch". Now also commenting that more powerful units (which are greatly more capable as well) are not needed, err what, based on what analysis?

So perhaps in fairness I should put your own approved tactile option to the test rather than just play it down or discredit it without actual analysis.

What we can do is buy this unit / modify as shown. Monitor the frequencies being sent by the soundcard to confirm the output to the tactile. Set digital crossover for low-frequency tests, so the unit operates only between the frequencies used. The amp will not pass higher frequencies/harmonics like in traditional frequency sweeps as they are blocked out. This will give a proper representation of how low and how well the unit can perform.

What is going to then be felt is the true output of the unit in its ability to reproduce the low frequencies set by the crossover. We can use the crossover to enable operation from 1dB using a Butterworth filter and this set to 48dB slope.

With each test, we can also increase the input gain from 0dB to +12dB.

• Test a sweep between 5-10Hz
• Test 5Hz, 10Hz, tones individually
• Test a sweep over 10-20Hz
• Test 15Hz, 20Hz tones individually

Re-configure the crossover for 30Hz @ 0dB

• Test a sweep over 20-30Hz
• Test 25Hz, 30Hz tones individually
• Conclude results

So what do you think is going to happen and how much energy will it output?

To say people are wasting their money on units with much greater wattage, which are designed to do a particular job very well is just coming across as a little ignorance or denial. You should maybe hold off on giving such evaluations if you have no user experience of them and especially when the user experience in tactile you do have to compare with is a BS 250 by Sinustec.

I am asking again as you are reporting how good your tactile is, so please share your profile and effects you currently have. All this talk of installations is great but really for good tactile, we ALSO need good effects and understanding how to make effects work well. This includes controlling how the telemetry is used by evaluating/knowing what the software options actually do. It also matters how we apply these for the specific effects roles and use to determine the operation and output an effect has. I'm just trying to gradually learn as it takes a lot of time trying and testing possible mehods and options but certainly progress is coming with continued efforts and experience.

Update:
I added some previous work and early attempts for bump effects to the Discord channel. People are welcome to copy and paste them into their own profiles.

 

[boern69]

"I think you are on the right track with this idea. Seems like installing transducers at the cockpit extremities is a big waste on energy, and money"

this is what wmacky said I only quoted this statement and disagrreed + tried to give a hint
to solve this without big budget.

U got to read more carefully

 

[Mr Latte]

"I think you are on the right track with this idea. Seems like installing transducers at the cockpit extremities is a big waste on energy, and money"

this is what wmacky said I only quoted this statement and disagrreed + tried to give a hint
to solve this without big budget.

U got to read more carefully

You quoted only part of what he said. He made no reference to budget, or any specific tactile unit. The point was the difference in using direct contact installed units and non-direct contact installed units placed typically in corners of a rig to represent wheels. We don't need the units placed to represent the position of wheels. We need them where we feel them (feet/body) regardless of what quality or power of unit is used.

Apologies if wrong but it appears your perspective is to show how awesome a £15 tactile unit with weight modification replaces the need for larger tactile being used. Your telling people they don't need to spend more as 100w with small Buttkickers is sufficient and will not waste as much energy.
That gives the impression larger BK that use several hundred watts and are more expensive are just not needed. My debate is this, your modded units are not close to achieving the best low frequencies and you are making such comments with no experience in comparisons between the different BK models in how they perform to each other or other tactile.

Is that not fair criticism?

Swings & Roundabouts
Let me get this right, as with your own build, it is light and you have an oscillating swing motion in the rig to act as a mini dBox using vibrations to accentuate directional effects. So what effects settings are you using? Why won't you share them, how do you control this tactile based motion?


Tactile Is Not Motion
Your not the first to attempt such but tactile in vibration is not motion. People have even tried 4 large BK units on a rig and the rig based on industrial springs. I have gone even further and tested a previous build with 4 large BK on extended plates connected only to a seat. Also using soft/medium T-300 isolation beneath the seat for rebound energy of directional effects. These powered with 2x Inuke DSP3000. So all that is close to £2000 if we take the prices, costing more than some motion rigs will cost.

With using 2 large BK each side directly on the seat for L/R. Yes we can get a sense of heave in bumps, we can get some rather nice directional energy for lateral G but let me say this again, tactile is not motion. We can't control it to act like motion, its fun but flawed if we try to use it for this purpose. From experience can I tell you, we should focus on how we combine both together as this is interesting in the pursuit for better immersion but neither replaces the other.

Attempts At Being More Creative
What we can do is have tactile effects alter position via threshold or delay to operate in sequence over channels with Simhubs advanced features bringing more control. As an example, have an effect feel like it starts in your ass, then it moves to your spine then to sides and then to shoulders. This could even be used for variation in energy of small-large bumps in suspension, it could be a braking force or a layer for RPM rising through the seat as the RPM increases or it could be a speed-based sensation.

Many possibilities for immersion can be experimented with quite easily and then tested. It's only possible when we have multizone tactile units installed for the body and as far as I am aware possible with Simhub.


Not Done Before & Not Possible Before Now
We cannot achieve the level of "tactile effects control & detailing" this brings with other options. Not SFX, D-Box, VR3, GS5, Tactile Seatpads, nor can it be achieved with the common tactile based CM/EM installations people already have. Yet it can be combined to work with static or motion rigs.

Amusingly in seeking to use fake motion via tactile what you are doing is ignoring advice that will deliver superb positional effects. All of which are directional into each side or up and down over your body. They can also be enhanced by other units beneath the seat as my own build will demonstrate. You don't need motion necessarily in the seat for feeling very detailed stereo representation of bumps, lateral G or other stereo positional effects. We can achieve a very nice feel for what the car is doing. That's why if we use multiple body zones with affordable and superb quality exciters we can better highlight the detailing and immersion but also improve instances with multiple effects operating at the same time.


Ahh but it's not motion, its custom made vibrational energy and which can be tailored in character, sensation and strength to suit the users preferences. These are my views based on quite a bit of testing or seeking to pioneer at pushing tactile immersion further. You or others do not need to agree with them or take them on board for your own build.

 

[asteroulis]

My dear friend,
If you had spent half of your time spent writing, into building the rig you would have finished by now .And then you would be able to showcase something trully awesome, beyond anything that anyone has ever accomplished. Now you are just in a constant argue what a unit can/cannot do, and how important spending possibly thousand of £/€/$ will provide better immersion.

Please for your own good get on with the project. After 7 years I think you still don't have a rig and people are still buying costly equipment because you say so.
I am being a bit harsh on you, I know. But aren't you tired yourself?

 

[Mr Latte]

My dear friend,
If you had spent half of your time spent writing, into building the rig you would have finished by now .And then you would be able to showcase something trully awesome, beyond anything that anyone has ever accomplished. Now you are just in a constant argue what a unit can/cannot do, and how important spending possibly thousand of £/€/$ will provide better immersion.

Please for your own good get on with the project. After 7 years I think you still don't have a rig and people are still buying costly equipment because you say so.
I am being a bit harsh on you, I know. But aren't you tired yourself?

In some ways it's funny and kinda sad too.
Yes I can laugh but also cry the project grew when new things were discovered and coming across some cheap BK units helped spur on the decision to expand what it was going to incorporate to what it has now. Those need additional materials, amps and cables etc so the cost continued to grow.

As for 7 years, thats a bit unkind. You know of personal circumstances that happened during 2013. The old project had to be dropped. I only started back into tactile with a new PC in 2016. Also, I was out of work for quite a while as well and did not have the funds. This most recent build only started around then, but several partial builds were done in testing ideas and concepts working towards creating the one you will see.

Spoiler: More Info

Looking at it in perspective, for me this experimentation is part of a hobby in its own and towards my personal goals for a cockpit. So its why I spent a good deal of money on other stuff a typical sim racer wouldn't. Like additional audio hardware, amps, many different tactile units and exciters and comparing different tactile models. Rather costly multi-channel monitoring interfaces and software tools for increased knowledge and learning. It would also surprise you how much has been spent on materials for the build thus far to help deal with the tactile this will use and vibrations it may generate which is a concern being an upstairs room. Specialist motor grade antivibration and sound-deadening, aluminum plates, steel/chrome tubing and piles of clamps.

The focus is currently on the seat section which has been challenging but its insane yet also bespoke. Installing 6x large BK, 4x TST and 6x Exciters to a seat and them all working like a symphony is not something you do on the first attempt or without a lot of time planning and effort.

Individual parts for how the tactile will be installed have been done in test builds, now I need to have the new build put together as I also had to revise the build for future installing of SFX which also brings the additional cost of an 8020 base frame.

Progress is being made, cables and connectors are on order at the moment so the building will commence sooner than later.

Now, just an update on the recent amp purchase and fan modification.
I will do a thread on a review and a simple, affordable solution for anyone seeking to get into tactile and this whole concept of placing multiple exciters to a seat malarky.

 

[Wmacky]

Now, just an update on the recent amp purchase and fan modification.
I will do a thread on a review and a simple, affordable solution for anyone seeking to get into tactile and this whole concept of placing multiple exciters to a seat malarky.

This sound good. I'm ready to get down to the nuts and bolts of this operation, such as the mounting location for the exiciters, and the placement of the proposed larger seat mounted single or stereo LFE's.

I'm going on eBay right now to decide on connectors with short pigtails to solder to each exciter. A quick disconnect type arrangement.

 

[Mr Latte]

@Wmacky 2.8mm I think is the correct size.
I spent quite a bit on good cables, cable shroud, crimps, soldering iron, and heat shrink for my own build. I want to have a really professional appearance for the installation.

I'm going with the idea that the cables from these will plug into a connection point below the seat. These being multi Speakon connections although I considered Banana Plugs but opted to go with an 8pole based 2.5mm cable that can run back to the amp with this specialist Speakon adapter.

So one cable is covering every 4 channels rather than a cable for each unit. This can also be disconnected at the adapter under the seat and the amps if ever needed and it stops any tension on the exciters crimp or solder connections or getting pulled/broken. They are a bit fragile in this regard.

This is not needed for the standard type installation and is more costly, however, it will also look great and tidy which for my own build is one of the desired goals.

 

[Spinelli]

I have a bunch of large buttkickers and clark synthesis transducers that have been sitting in my closet for 8 or so months that I want to finally hook up to my Sim-Lab P1 cockpit. I just want to hookup 1 BK & 1 CS for now in order to play around with them and take things slowly. I have no idea on how to mount it all and am looking for an easy and clean solution. I don't want to be having to go to local shops and custom-fabricating all sorts of plates and brackets and such...

What do you guys think of just mounting the transducers using some brackets like in the following picture? I have a bunch of those from my SIm-Lab P1 purchase.

P.S. That is someone else's setup. I haven't hooked up anything.

 

[Mr Latte]

@Spinelli
You have 8020 so it's easy to experiment with placement even if you're not seeking optimal installation just yet or using isolation. Some people use profile cut-offs for the BK's legs just spacing them far enough apart.

What amps have you got, what effects interest you or do you want to try?

 

[White Hawk]

In some ways it's funny and kinda sad too.
Yes I can laugh but also cry the project grew when new things were discovered and coming across some cheap BK units helped spur on the decision to expand what it was going to incorporate to what it has now. Those need additional materials, amps and cables etc so the cost continued to grow.

As for 7 years, thats a bit unkind. You know of personal circumstances that happened during 2013. The old project had to be dropped. I only started back into tactile with a new PC in 2016. Also, I was out of work for quite a while as well and did not have the funds. This most recent build only started around then, but several partial builds were done in testing ideas and concepts working towards creating the one you will see.

Spoiler: More Info

Looking at it in perspective, for me this experimentation is part of a hobby in its own and towards my personal goals for a cockpit. So its why I spent a good deal of money on other stuff a typical sim racer wouldn't. Like additional audio hardware, amps, many different tactile units and exciters and comparing different tactile models. Rather costly multi-channel monitoring interfaces and software tools for increased knowledge and learning. It would also surprise you how much has been spent on materials for the build thus far to help deal with the tactile this will use and vibrations it may generate which is a concern being an upstairs room. Specialist motor grade antivibration and sound-deadening, aluminum plates, steel/chrome tubing and piles of clamps.

The focus is currently on the seat section which has been challenging but its insane yet also bespoke. Installing 6x large BK, 4x TST and 6x Exciters to a seat and them all working like a symphony is not something you do on the first attempt or without a lot of time planning and effort.

Individual parts for how the tactile will be installed have been done in test builds, now I need to have the new build put together as I also had to revise the build for future installing of SFX which also brings the additional cost of an 8020 base frame.

Progress is being made, cables and connectors are on order at the moment so the building will commence sooner than later.

Now, just an update on the recent amp purchase and fan modification.
I will do a thread on a review and a simple, affordable solution for anyone seeking to get into tactile and this whole concept of placing multiple exciters to a seat malarky.

Hey there, I’m still scratching my head on making my first step into tactile on my P1 rig, I just want two transducers, an amp and a PCI second sound card that is Windows 10 compatible and a budget of £300-£400 to start with, but still not sure what to get and the best way to attach one of them to the seat, do I really need to drill holes in the seat to attach it directly for the best effect or is there another way that’s good enough? I do have very strong velcro tape, maybe that?

Just looked up that amp, that’s a good price, very tempted to pick that up to finally fill one of the pieces of the puzzle as I would like a 4 channel for future additions.

How will you go about attaching those Dayton exciters, with the supplied adhesive tape or some other way? Aren’t these going to produce more sound than a regular transducer? One thing I have to be careful of is noise levels.

Why the fan mod, does the amp run hot? Any issues of overheating with it?

Thanks for the help.

 

[Wmacky]

@Wmacky 2.8mm I think is the correct size.
I spent quite a bit on good cables, cable shroud, crimps, soldering iron, and heat shrink for my own build. I want to have a really professional appearance for the installation.

I'm going with the idea that the cables from these will plug into a connection point below the seat. These being multi Speakon connections although I considered Banana Plugs but opted to go with an 8pole based 2.5mm cable that can run back to the amp with this specialist Speakon adapter.

So one cable is covering every 4 channels rather than a cable for each unit. This can also be disconnected at the adapter under the seat and the amps if ever needed and it stops any tension on the exciters crimp or solder connections or getting pulled/broken. They are a bit fragile in this regard.

This is not needed for the standard type installation and is more costly, however, it will also look great and tidy which for my own build is one of the desired goals.

I had already decided on 8 conductor cables with 8 pole speak-on connectors. Great idea! I'm putting together a shopping list now.

Most 8 conductor cable seems to be 18 Gauge which I assume is fine for the exciters, But I'm looking for 14 gauge for the LFE's. This seems very hard to locate! I did find some 13 / 12 gauge multi conductor on eBay in expensive big bulk rolls. The 8 pole speak-on plugs and connectors are easier to source thank goodness.