@latte
thx for critic -always welcome
but it works like charm my aim was to built a unit like earthquake wich shakes in horizontal direction
works 100% and has a lot punch
with a lot less amp power needed compared to an earthquake unit
it cost less than 10% of the original and u dont need an expensive amp
this is no "stereo" -> the 2 units work in the same direction and move the mass for that one is
connected in oppposite
the unit is mounted relative high - the lever is better
Plz have in mind the dampers below the lightweightrig allow it swinging very easy
the effect for road impact and engine (in the back) for low frequencies is absolute outstanding
I concentrate on low frequencies for effects /hardware first ->the higher frequency bands
hardware will follow later so plz have a little patience
I like the effects between 15hz and 25hz they feel very alive and fit perfect to the mounted
wheel
But this is my impression only
I compare it with my first rig showed here as well and the new one feels greater
Even the old one is quite good
Apologies if my response came across as a smarmy smart ass
I know you had mentioned attempting to do a horizontal based unit, the image was hard to discern what you were doing as it appeared like L/R units for the rear of the seat. That's why I stated I was a bit confused and dismayed if you were trying to get a good stereo from "
that installation". I can't really tell how you are using dampeners but feel free to show more of the rig and your installation or findings you have.
I am not convinced altering tactile units brings clear benefits, without other drawbacks, it is something that has come up a few times but let me try to cover some of my own thoughts on it.
Before that can I say, there is nothing wrong with being creative and trying to improve the tactile you have. Man, I applaud that from anyone and its nice to see but I think discussing things more is always a good thing too. One of the primary things you should do is learn/know what Hz from low-high your units can properly use, this is always a good place to start.
I am not and never try to claim to be a genius at this or audio engineer. Much of what I have learned is from research and self-testing or added experience along the way. So I don't intend to come across as seeming to be right on everything or indeed always accurate.
When you feel what a typical unit can do compared to say a large BK then it becomes clear what it brings in delivering proper low-frequency extension. The difference with the energy the units can output these frequencies is what counts not just having a felt response from them.
I believe what is happening and has impressed others in the past by applying leverage or weights to tactile is that this increases the dB intensity. Hey, my own rig will have LFE units extended on BK plates as well and it may make the tactile more efficient with the same wattage being used as the leverage increases the dB being output. However, I am not doing it with the idea/intent I can get my units to improve and perform 5Hz/10Hz or whatever better than they could without such leverage or additional tweaking. I think some people look at it with this as a goal.
If all the frequencies associated with the effects or tones being used are increased. When we increase the dB gain level, you are then going to feel more energy from the "center value" being used (Hz you input for effects) and its neighboring or surrounding frequencies the bandwidth for that frequency has with the dB that is being applied. As we apply marginal increases in amplitude we can widen the bandwidth representing the surrounding frequencies but care with this is needed. A difference here is using PEQ to increase/decrease specific Hz amplitudes compared to increasing the gain for the whole dynamic range.
Additionally, with dB increases of the general volume/gain, we then form a wider slope of frequencies above/below the "center values" being used. When more input gain is applied then, this will also increase any felt harmonics that are generated as well. So what you get is much more additional frequencies also being felt.
Thus we could say, it will feel more robust, or seem to have more body, as yes you are increasing the bandwidth being output. What may be likely to happen in doing this to attempt to boost the low Hz felt range, you are over/increasing the dB for the tactile units best working frequency range. These are often in the 40-80Hz range, so if already increasing the dB by additional weights/leverage and then when we add "each effect" we want, this also can increase the dB further for repeated frequencies that each effect layer is using.
What this is potentially going to do is overdrive specific frequencies and if multiple effects are used then various Hz will all be peaking. This then means, effects will maybe gain in that they have plenty of energy/bandwidth but with this they will start to feel more or less similar to each other. Often the user will start to lose detailing when more effects are applied (the less is more aspect). Its likey that a user could have less variation in dB and feel from individual frequencies and the individual effects as each effect may feel more robust but also very similar.
I believe too much dB and too many layers are common results of losing detail in specific frequencies (this then is unit dependent on what can be felt) but also I think adding leverage/weights may also be linked to the same issue. This is why I asked you to try to do some comparisons with a few effects and standard units with increased dB compared to units with modification but then lower the dB to see if you find a similar response.
Here is an example on the factors mentioned above:
Bottom:
You can see a 25Hz tone and the surrounding frequencies it has (wider bandwidth with lower Hz)
It is just above 1dB in amplitude. I would feel in this example the Hz to about 1dB below the 0dB line. So we could say we are feeling from 10Hz - 45Hz for the 25Hz center value being used.
We are not just feeling 25Hz and likely on smaller units that cant generate the lower bandwidth, we can assume a user would be feeling the upper frequencies and not so much the lower frequencies from the 25Hz.
Note you can see also a lot of harmonics generated but these are lower in dB so are and not yet felt with this level output we are using
Top:
Now what you see in blue is the response when I applied max volume.
See now the difference and how the harmonics have come into play and a 25Hz tone in this example is now going to 3KHz for the @ -1dB level I could detect/feel. You have basically a 25Hz layer generating energy across the whole working range the tactile unit being used will operate with and far beyond.
Example 2:
Compare top to bottom, this shows about 50% volume and how even with it we see much greater activity than when we keep the gain lowered. This is of course more of an issue with lower Hz as they have greater bandwidth and then also generate more harmonics with the frequency ranges we are using.
I am not convinced that the best tactile is achieved by applying mods that we can't really define how they are altering the output of the tactile. While we may be able to boost and rejoice in that the sensation is now stronger/more bold or has more body. I do have to raise this aspect that for different effects to contain their own unique sensations that we can feel when others are also operating it is something that needs consideration.
One solution is to combine effects that are using very different Hz for the same channel, another is to have effects on the same channel that have very different operational activity so we avoid them being active at the same time. The third approach is simple, we do this but also add more units for specific roles and then use these for specific body regions.
Often people will want to crank the volume and in particular with lower Hz to try to gain more felt sensation. Yet often what they may be doing in trying to gain more added depth with a unit that just cant properly output the lower Hz is destroying the mind range definition we may have with different effects and attempting to give effects their own feel or character.
I doubt anyone will come here and say their tactile feels best when they crank all the layers to max volume, or when they crank the master gain or amp volumes. Sure we can find a nice balance for volume but this too can be within a sweet spot depending on the hardware used, installation and Hz being applied. PEQ is different as we are controlling the bandwidth and amplitude for specific Hz and with this yes we can help tailor how a unit feels with various frequencies. Although a unit will only output what it is capable of generating so that is also why I spent quite some time looking to see what units were best for the low end, mid-range and also high bass frequencies.
Each persons wants may differ, mine very much is on creating effects to suit the abilities of the best hardware I can install and then use that hardware in a controlled way for my preferences or mood or usage case scenario. I don't think adding leverage and weights quite gives us the control simply because it is not on a per frequency basis or being applied with user controls from software or hardware. In my own studies and testing I have learned that we want to give specific units roles and keep them for either specific effects or to use only for specific Hz ranges. This way we use units that deliver the best response from the Hz we seek to use with the effects we seek to apply.
Likewise for speakers, a tweeter is not very good for low bass and a woofer is not very good as a tweeter. Just as both are not ideal for midrange detailing neither. So as example, a single tactile unit approach to cover all bass frequencies or multiple effects greatly reduces the potential compared with what we can now apply in effects creation and effects distribution. Just as I have learned how increased body contact points is vital for increasing the felt potential of multiple effects operating at once. Its quite exciting to see how far things can be taken with some creative approaches and increased experiments in effects creation.
*Updated / Additional Control = Crossover:
When you take into account how harmonics can come into play, to extract the low bass we may not want a unit to be effected with the harmonics generated. These can ruin the feeling of just the low bass you want to get.
This is relevant if using a good performing low bass unit (Shaker/Subwoofer) capable for that role in the energy it can bring. This is why for example a user can install a large BK unit but with a recommended amp like a Behringer iNuke DSP or newer NXD series the user can set a
crossover limit to control those units operational frequency output. Just like BK amps and subwoofer amps have crossover control. It lets the user tailor the bass sensation the unit generates by limiting the frequencies or harmonics it outputs.
This means the user could crank the volume and the harmonics be generated like shown, however, the "crossover" used will block any frequencies not desired by the settings (type/slope) the crossover will use. This lets a large unit do best, what it is designed for and the role of low bass performance be tailored solely for the installation being applied.
Leverage & Weights
These will apply what they do at the end of the chain as they are physical implementations. So a user is not able to see how they change the frequencies being output yet at the same time they have no control over which are boosted/cut or tailored to a use case scenario. It will generally I believe operate more like an increase in dB over the whole dynamic range on the units being used. If we can't control what it is doing, is it really then the best approach to take. Such certainly warrants maybe more testing or comparisons but I have seen nobody provide in-depth discussion or analysis when applying this approach. Yet what seems evident is people use it mainly as it brings an increase in power output. I have attempted to show possible downsides of this with harmonics and over-boosting of peak frequencies you then have no control over or how they are being boosted.
I am not convinced it is a good approach to take.
Can Different Frequencies Suit Different Gain Levels?
One thing we find is that different frequencies will indeed suit having different amplitude or gain levels. What is deemed good or used is based on the hardware capabilities and character output of the units used, the installation and the user preference? Frequencies that a unit can generate well we want to take care not to have too much gain as it will mask other frequencies detailing, yet we will want other frequencies to perhaps have more gain to help balance how they are felt and here is where what/how we use in frequencies with effect layers can become important to the effects sensation being generated. To do this best is to go beyond relying on a single unit and single point of installation/location.
*Seeking The Goal
You will see in time when I showcase and work with others how we can combine a lager unit for the low bass and use it in specific effects or ways with exciters on the back of a seat. This bring both high level detailing of frequencies with powerful low bass and it all controlled to additional body regions for greater immersion.
