Tactile Immersion - General Discussion - Hardware & Software

[Mr Latte]

So waaay back around page 20 (approx a year ago) I started highlighting possibilities in using iPad as a means to control, multichannel audio-interfaces. This is commonly done by musicians in adding multiple inputs (instruments,mics,drums etc) to control them via specialist software apps or DAWs.

Not much feedback came from that and I kinda had hoped at the time some would, to help me better understand/determine the possibilities we could apply for control of tactile. I'm not a musician or magician but seen potential with this approach. Since that time, iPad has really, very much grown and established itself as a very serious and powerful tool for audio.

Finally, I have went with this approach to investigate such matters on recently buying an iPad pro 11" model. (what a great bit of hardware it is too)

Its a kinda Magic......

So I could do this on a PC for sometime but.........

What makes the iPad unique is how it can simplify things and with its awesome touch interface.
Within only minutes it was possible to connect the soundcard outputs to inputs on the interface, connect the interface via USB to a USB C hub and this connecting to the iPad.

Not Just Geek Factor
Possibilities arise in controlling audio channels and applying "plugins" to them as its a doddle but I am looking at different software options for this, more research to do. An example would be having an input, placing a Crossover Filter on it, Placing an EQ, then also a Spectrum Analyser. You name it. If its audio-based it can be applied. So much more plugins are available than we need as their are now hundreds of plugin tools. The KEY factor is how simple it is and how easy and seemlessly the iPad lets you swap between apps/tools. Some are free, some only a few quid and not like PC costing lots of money just for single plugins like this.

So for me, this is quite interesting indeed and I like what I am seeing as I never considered a PC DAW to be used to control my audio channels or tactile (previously only for monitoring) but this opens up new options with simple user interfaces and setup.


Simple Monitoring?
Here we have a "Gear Change" from SBS showing its frequency output via just one of the various audio apps I am looking at. Some of the options are quite amazing and cheap compared to VST plugins for PCs and typical DAWs.


Monitoring in 5 minutes it works... I had two layers applied for "GearChange" set at 48Hz and 64Hz. Notice the peaks in this captured are quite accurate. We can exclude beyond 200Hz as we can apply a crossover to limit output of the tactile to this.

To do such consider that a cheap 2nd hand iPad could be used, software isn't that expensive, a USB hub/adapter is cheap and audio interfaces vary depending on number of channels they support.

A new door has been opened....

 

[asteroulis]

So waaay back around page 20 (approx a year ago) I started highlighting possibilities in using iPad as a means to control, multichannel audio-interfaces. This is commonly done by musicians in adding multiple inputs (instruments,mics,drums etc) to control them via specialist software apps or DAWs.

Not much feedback came from that and I kinda had hoped at the time some would, to help me better understand/determine the possibilities we could apply for control of tactile. I'm not a musician or magician but seen potential with this approach. Since that time, iPad has really, very much grown and established itself as a very serious and powerful tool for audio.

Finally, I have went with this approach to investigate such matters on recently buying an iPad pro 11" model. (what a great bit of hardware it is too)

Its a kinda Magic......

So I could do this on a PC for sometime but.........

What makes the iPad unique is how it can simplify things and with its awesome touch interface.
Within only minutes it was possible to connect the soundcard outputs to inputs on the interface, connect the interface via USB to a USB C hub and this connecting to the iPad.

Not Just Geek Factor
Possibilities arise in controlling audio channels and applying "plugins" to them as its a doddle but I am looking at different software options for this, more research to do. An example would be having an input, placing a Crossover Filter on it, Placing an EQ, then also a Spectrum Analyser. You name it. If its audio-based it can be applied. So much more plugins are available than we need as their are now hundreds of plugin tools. The KEY factor is how simple it is and how easy and seemlessly the iPad lets you swap between apps/tools. Some are free, some only a few quid and not like PC costing lots of money just for single plugins like this.

So for me, this is quite interesting indeed and I like what I am seeing as I never considered a PC DAW to be used to control my audio channels or tactile (previously only for monitoring) but this opens up new options with simple user interfaces and setup.


Simple Monitoring?
Here we have a "Gear Change" from SBS showing its frequency output via just one of the various audio apps I am looking at. Some of the options are quite amazing and cheap compared to VST plugins for PCs and typical DAWs.


Monitoring in 5 minutes it works... I had two layers applied for "GearChange" set at 48Hz and 64Hz. Notice the peaks in this captured are quite accurate. We can exclude beyond 200Hz as we can apply a crossover to limit output of the tactile to this.

To do such consider that a cheap 2nd hand iPad could be used, software isn't that expensive, a USB hub/adapter is cheap and audio interfaces vary depending on number of channels they support.

A new door has been opened....

Excuse me if I don't get something correctly here.
I think that you can do this much more efficiently and cost effectively by just using a midi controller like :

Akai APC Mini (I'm suggesting this because I have decided to use it myself , but there are many options obviously)

which is so much cheaper and combined with VoiceMeeter and it's Macro Buttons (programmable virtual midi presets) you can have physical controls and a LOT of options for adjusting settings and applying presets on the fly. Spectrallisime from the same dev is also nice for monitoring.

I think that what you are suggesting is an interesting tool for monitoring and research mainly (which should be noted clearly ) , and maybe a choice for someone already owning an iPad , but surely doesn't seem to me to have a place at someone just trying to setup his tactile setup to get some immersion points.

Correct me if I'm wrong of course...

 

[Mr Latte]

Excuse me if I don't get something correctly here.
I think that you can do this much more efficiently and cost effectively by just using a midi controller like :

Akai APC Mini (I'm suggesting this because I have decided to use it myself , but there are many options obviously)

which is so much cheaper and combined with VoiceMeeter and it's Macro Buttons (programmable virtual midi presets) you can have physical controls and a LOT of options for adjusting settings and applying presets on the fly. Spectrallisime from the same dev is also nice for monitoring.

I think that what you are suggesting is an interesting tool for monitoring and research mainly (which should be noted clearly ) , and maybe a choice for someone already owning an iPad , but surely doesn't seem to me to have a place at someone just trying to setup his tactile setup to get some immersion points.

Correct me if I'm wrong of course...

Feel free to share what the solution you like offers and enables. People will want to see. You need to cover VM in more detail...

I never said this was aimed at just someone trying to setup their tactile. It is more my own approach and testing/experimentation I am highlighting.

With this iPad and audio interface approach inc software options, it enables much more than just monitoring. Software like AUM or Audiobus3 is quite amazing in what they enable all from an iPad.

Compared to a PC DAW based option the iPad makes things much easier, simple to connect as well.

My own rig and installation will be quite complexed as many will know. This solution from what I can see, can manage it and make it easy to control. Besides that the iPad can swap between various uses/tools/apps and is easily disconnected or used for the many other things it can do.

I will showcase it better at a later time when I have had more time with it.
If wanting to, yes it's even possible to add additional hardware like Midi controllers to it liked you showed.

Here is an example of a Behringer solution but there are many options:
Wifi Control - iPad / Android Tablet / PC / Transport Control - X Touch

 

[Mr Latte]

@asteroulis, do come back and share more on the solution you like to use and highlight it better. This way followers of the thread can see and choose for themselves what to do or use if they like that.

With my on research into things, here is an example of how simple AUM on iPad is for midi controllers if someone wanted to have or use them. Even a cheap basic midi device (like this) or (this) or many others could be configured to act as compact volume controls for the output of each tactile channel. Or if wanted even controlling a stereo mix between (audio/telemetry) tactile with a pan control knob.

I have mulled over some possibilities but having such controls at easy reach is potentially much better than having to go to a software app, to then select the function etc and then make an adjustment. I presume this is why you are considering such also for VM and PC.

 

[anton_Chez]

(moved from another thread, off topic)

I went back and tried the audio tactile with the EQ. It doesn't give me anywhere near the telemetry based tactile. This was just with the pucks, not my BK Mini's. I can't seem to get enough feeling out of them to make it worthwhile. They are still quite soft with telemetry based tactile through Simhub but at least with that they help round out the chassis based tactile where the Mini's are mounted. Being directly on the seat helps.

I also think that one of my units is either faulty or I've damaged it through use. It rattles a little when the other one doesn't. I think I can nullify it by just using a lower gain. Annoying but I can't be bothered to do the return for it.

 

[anton_Chez]

"Telemetry tactile is perfect for the energy and reactions/responses from the various effects. "Audio Tactile" can highlight elements in important audio. Like a cars engine character, the tyre noise on kerbs, exhaust sounds, other cars etc. Combined I feel they can be great if implemented and installed well but thats perhaps a thread in its own for a later time."

I definitely agree that the audio component of the tactile brings its own character and qualities to the overall feeling. For me though, I feel my units are not suited for it. If I had some different types I think I would be able to make better use of it. I also lack the hardware necessary to get the most out of it. That's why I keep going back to it to try different things (like the EQ tonight) because I would like to be able to combine them. I get disappointed by the results whenever I try though as I'm not adding the necessary hardware and don't really care to at this point.

That being said, the trial settings you've posted, Rod, in the other thread are actually working REALLY well for me now. I've tweaked a few things and also because I've got the exciters on the seat, I am able to separate the signal a little now which gives a more unique feel to the overall output. I love the acceleration force now. I can feel the power coming out of corners and it helps fill the gaps that the motion platform lacks most, that is, acceleration feeling. The different ranges of RPM and the feeling you get from each is also akin to your Simvibe profile with the 12 different layers we were using. I'm sure this will develop more as we progress with the beta software but for now, it's working really good for me. Just fine tuning the overall volume and also the individual volumes to suit both my units and how well the effects mix in as well.

 

[Mr Latte]

Im happy if you are seeing progress, to be fair we may all have variations to what we like or how we like it and tactile is one of those things. I see great potential with SBS as the guys behind it and supporting the developer of it are very good at what they do.


Own Rig Update:
Ref:Tactile Vibrations & Isolation

So most materials, have now arrived for at least, the base section of my new cockpit build. It has taken a long time to try different ideas for isolation and then find one I think is good enough for the tactile my rig will use.

The chosen solution includes dual 8mm aluminum plates isolated by two types of isolator pads (varying stiffness) combined with the rather large TI-300 isolators. I will also use antivibration materials under the alu plates and this then gets all bolted together with the triple parallel clamps to the steel tubing the rig will use.

I casually call these "isolation towers", due to the sheer size
The base of the rig will use three each side (front/middle/back) for a total of 6 towers. Combining 12x soft/medium antivibration pads, 12x medium/firm antivibration pads and 12x TI 300 isolators. Each tower as shown below comes in at over £200 so this is quite a daunting part of the build if it does not support the rig as expected or reduces the vibrations enough as intended.

The hope is I can enjoy my tactile and my wife downstairs can enjoy no longer hearing it.


Size comparison to commonly used isolators on typical 8020 builds.

 

[RCHeliguy]

But but but it's not size that matters, it's how it moves, right?

 

[Mr Latte]

But but but it's not size that matters, it's how it moves, right?

Mmmmmmm, well I heard that size doesn't matter about.....
But,But,But,But,But,But,But,But,But,But,,,,,Buttkickers


Apologies sometimes I stutter type in awkward situations.

Its not true....
The big fat ones are better than the thin long ones

 

[RCHeliguy]

And color is great as long as it is black or white.

 

[Mr Latte]

Well, here is something that's in colour...

This is a thing I have been looking to be able to test with for almost a year. Using this app with iPad Pro as one tool for monitoring the tactile frequency output, also helping towards my own continued learning/progression with effects building. Being able to see and know exactly what frequencies are going to the tactile is an important aspect also for my own rigs tuning. It also helps to understand what different settings in software like Shakeit Bass Shaker, SSW or Simvibe are technically doing to/with the audio.

Signalscope X
Software for iPad Pro
I forward the HDMI output from the USB-C hub to an additional monitor.


So many options and tools, this is multi-tool mode. Options are also available to see any single mode at fullscreen. I also really like the ability to see right down to 1Hz. Few audio based tools can do this or make that possible.



3D Spectogram, here are some simple gear changes


Having 2D spectrogram mode is cool and is fine but 3D lets us see in much more detail.



Zoom in/out or rotate to alter the view that suits. This works in real-time or if pausing. Even export out as data file or PDF which is super nerdifyingly cool.

This will be excellent for monitoring road bumps and other quick timing or succession effects. Handy also, if I add additional layers, change settings, use harmonics etc. Its quite possible nothing will escape this detailed monitoring so I am looking forward to play around with it more over the next month.

This is one of the more impressive software tools I have come across for monitoring audio. Even taking into account what I have looked at on PC over the last couple of years. Sure PC has some excellent software too but costing quite large sums of money and often needing much deeper learning curve being used within DAW software.

I had this up and running in minutes from the iPad, so its accomplished one area I wanted to improve for my own usage and rig to have.

 

[nolive721]

Interesting you ate going there
These tools and 3d graphical representation are so called waterfalls and heavily used in automotove R&D where i come from
Beig for NVH analysis, engine harmonics or orders check as well as damage map of a specific component or system ( stress levels across engine rpm and dity cycle loads)
I might go there once i have sorted my hardware/software combination so that will remind me of my good old days in engine development

On my persoal rig topic i am going to ditch the stereo amps solution now that i am implementing 4 and maybe more pucs
I just ordered a 2nd hand 5.1 amp from onkyo that i can squeeze under the seat of my playseat
Its japan holiday all week and i am not home but i am planig to shate a walk through of my own solution with VMB software and thus in my both set up configuratio which is triple screen on one hand and TV for sims that dot support triples well (ACC do you hear me?)

It wont come until the end of May at best but hope with all the humility possible that it can help people here

 

[Mr Latte]

Interesting you ate going there
These tools and 3d graphical representation are so called waterfalls and heavily used in automotove R&D where i come from
Beig for NVH analysis, engine harmonics or orders check as well as damage map of a specific component or system ( stress levels across engine rpm and dity cycle loads)
I might go there once i have sorted my hardware/software combination so that will remind me of my good old days in engine development

On my persoal rig topic i am going to ditch the stereo amps solution now that i am implementing 4 and maybe more pucs
I just ordered a 2nd hand 5.1 amp from onkyo that i can squeeze under the seat of my playseat
Its japan holiday all week and i am not home but i am planig to shate a walk through of my own solution with VMB software and thus in my both set up configuratio which is triple screen on one hand and TV for sims that dot support triples well (ACC do you hear me?)

It wont come until the end of May at best but hope with all the humility possible that it can help people here

Does the amp you ordered support multichannel inputs?
This thread has covered such in the past (if you want to search) Without multichannel inputs you can only input a 2 channel source. Taking into account, the audio from soundcards for telemetry based tactile is not encoded in digital like Dolby or DTS for a receiver to then decode multi-channel audio from.

 

[nolive721]

yes but the LIne out only from my soundcard will feed it so I am not sure about the sense of your question

important to me is that I could output the telemetry signal to multiple pucs via a single amp

 

[Dan Costa]

Yeah I'm also using an AV receiver. The Yamaha R720

Does 7.1 multichannel input (8 shakers) with simhub.

But I'm starting to agree with @Mr Latte. Yesterday at Watkins Glen club race the kerbs make a lot of rumble sound, but I felt nothing in the shakers using simhub.

I'm wondering how to mix the two information signals (simhub + game audio) to exit the same 6ch soundcard I'm using in simhub. My current 7.1 game audio is on a second 7.1 soundcard, so I will need to make windows output the same audio stream to 2 different soundcards. It should work

 

[nolive721]

Thanks for that

I am traveling across the country far away from my rig so cant make it proper but really to me at least VMB will be my software solution

You can virtualize output from multiple input like 2 soundcards you are mentioning

And with built in EQ in VMB kill the high frequencies to send only say 20 to max 100hz to the bass shakers

I am thinking your Yamaha can do that as well at the HW level too
My 2p

 

[Dan Costa]

Yes receivers kill frequencies above ~200hz but on the subwoofer channel only. My simhub soundcard software has an equalizer and I can kill those frequencies there.

I will test it when possible. I dont know if simhumb uses exclusive mode on the soundcard

 

[Mr Latte]

yes but the LIne out only from my soundcard will feed it so I am not sure about the sense of your question

important to me is that I could output the telemetry signal to multiple pucs via a single amp

View attachment 303872

Sorry but looking at this, to me Line 1,2,3 are all individual STEREO INPUTS only.
Amps that are suitable will generally be labeled as "Multichannel Input" or as "5.1 IN" / "7.1 IN"

These days it is NOT a common feature due to HDMI becoming the main standard for multichannel delivery.

 

[nolive721]

Hello,

fully respect your views and long experience&expertise in thsi area yet I am convinced it will work for my own purpose, which might be different from yours or others targets I reckon, either through SW or HW tweaking

I came to your thread very enthusiastic to learn but also help others with more simplified solutions for their needs if I can achieve such from my side, if you feel its not relevant I can leave the thread no problem.

 

[Mr Latte]

Hello,

fully respect your views and long experience&expertise in thsi area yet I am convinced it will work for my own purpose, which might be different from yours or others targets I reckon, either through SW or HW tweaking

I came to your thread very enthusiastic to learn but also help others with more simplified solutions for their needs if I can achieve such from my side, if you feel its not relevant I can leave the thread no problem.

Hi, the thread was created to get others to chat about tactile, so your own journey and progress is welcomed.

The image you showed and how its inputs are labeled. From a multichannel analog source (which is what we have) the amp will only accept 1x Stereo 2 Channel input at a time. Care needs to be taken when buying such for this reason and also to be sure an AV amp also supports the correct ohm resistance of the tactile being used. With many models, AV based amps are moving from 8ohm to 6ohm but they do not support 4ohm that the majority of tactile units use. Best to check the specifications.

2 Channel Sent To Multiple Channels
What the amp could do is use DSP program modes to upscale the stereo input used to then output this to additional channels. For example, using Pro Logic II based decoding or other Dolby/DTS types. These, however, may not maintain the output as intended and in some hardware cases the bandwidth of the rear channel can be frequency limited.

So you cannot have 4 independent channels for your wheels, or set different effects to operate on up to 6 specific channels. If telemetry based software like Shakeit, SSW, Simvibe or others operated via Dolby Based encoding/decoding then we could use Optical/Coaxial or HDMI but this is not the case.

Let us know how you get on but, like others in the past your welcome to ask people on the forums if certain hardware will be suitable for the intended purpose, before committing to purchases.