Tactile Immersion - General Discussion - Hardware & Software

[nolive721]

I am probably going to embarrass myself considering the level of DIY solutions I see here but since this thread is populated with experts,I hope for a bit of an easy guidance

I have decided to start with a simple/cheap solution Lepy 2.1 amp and Dayton TT25 pucks, 2 of them under the seat of my Playseat evolution

I have received the pucks today and I am confused at how to mount them. the fixing holes are in the center plane of the puck itself so I was thinking to stick the pucks face , opposite side of the Dayton logo, directly to the wood plate I will be using as support and use some wood screw to secure them

1st question, would that option being secured enough for long term use considering they are going to shake quite badly, obviously, during long gaming sessions
2nd question, there seems to be 4 tiny holes on that surface. are they functional at all?like heat exhaust of some sort which in that case would not be a brillant idea for reliability on the long term

I know that there is a mounting kit existing for these pucks but the shops where I see them in the US dont ship to Japan where I live and the ones on Ebay have atrocious shipping costs.
And I dont have the tool to bore the mounting plate like some of DIY solutions I have seen on the Internet

Any guidance then is appreciated, thanks so much

Olivier

 

[Mr Latte]

Hi Oliver,

Dayton do sell an additional mounting kit for those units.
See Here

Simhub Discord channel has a member that made a 3D printed mount called the "Puckicker"
See Here

 

[nolive721]

thanks so much.Might go for the DIY version considering the reviews this mounting got and the actual shipping costs.

I am still in the planning about how to position the pucks so I will try to read the entire thread to get some idea about the ideal location for the intended purpose

My initial thinking is to start with 2 pucks under the seat of my PLASYEAT Evolution and 2 more close to the pedals later down the road.

I am hopefully finishing this week-end a cart type support for the PLAYSEAT so I can move it easily in the 2 positions I Sim race (triple screen or large TV), but also raise the actual sitting position so I manage a better FOV in these 2 scenario. The bottom of the seat on the PLAYSEAT is indeed a bit too low

 

[Mr Latte]

Done some testing with one of the tactile exciters that I ordered.
Dayton Audio DAEX32U-4 Ultra 32mm 40W 4 Ohm

So, a bit as expected.........

Why Did I Wait So Long To Experiment With These?
After some brief exploration, I would say that indeed these can help greatly to enhance engines or other effects. I got really nice sensations by mixing the audio-tactile with Shakeit. Even with only using it for rpm and speed sensations. Makes me curious for future tests when I start adding all my tactile again.



This is the seat I have
LINK


Direct Body Region / Seat Installations
For this test had them stuck behind my shoulder regions (Red) attached to the carbon fibre back of the seat via the 3M. Not an easy location for typically installed tactile to reach with good energy but the shoulders being a very sensitive body region, we can utilise them better with some creativity.

Having these installed here, made what tactile they generated really easy to feel/sense. This also helped highlight the directional stereo of left/right curbs (from the game audio). Often with audio, it has tactile/sensations with lots of curbs or additional feel that telemetry based bumps may not offer. An example is the audible bbbrrrzzz from tyres.

What was also superb was feeling tactile from the game audio for various cars engines. Bringing their own unique sensations and effects we can't get with the telemetry based tactile solutions. I doubt I will ever go back to using Simvibes harmonics for engine based effects while feeling decent it lacks character or authenticity.

* Additional units (Blue) will later be installed at the seat sides, illustrated above for future tests/comparisons. Will be interesting to try different things and add some creativity but also testing the side/body region for specific stereo effects enhancement and combined with other units. More body regions can greatly help to increase the immersion/detection of specific effects.

With some early tweaking found that the unit is working well from 30Hz-200Hz. At this range, it avoids being too loud or speaker like.

Crossover Control
Surprised with the depth/strength it had at 30Hz as didn't expect that. Taking it above 200Hz starts to make it much more audible (seat becomes even more like a speaker) but yes I could feel additional mild sensations with a temporary crossover set to operate only between 200Hz-300Hz. I could even feel detail beyond 400Hz with this unit (from game audio) but it does start becoming too audible for how I want to utilise them.

Personally, I want to limit the sound that these can make as previously noted we seek more the tactile they can create than their speaker abilities.

PC Software Based Crossover
This may be possible for some people to use that do not have audio hardware based crossovers. Will have to investigate some possible options or if others can recommend some?


Thoughts
Really, excellent potential for future testing and combining with other units. Pleased that the theory worked and these being affordable and easily powered makes them accessible for anyone. It appears that indeed with (crossover control) we can use these exciters to enhance the tactile detailing over common models purchased that may struggle to deliver good detailing with mid/high bass frequencies. I also see some potential benefits in possibly using Shakeit with units utilised solely for specific effects detailing. More tests will help confirm how this can be done.

Shakeit Issue?
I still find that in Shakeit when using RPM/SPEED it's hard to avoid a thumping sensation as the tactile unit seems to struggle with both effects operation. Now, this could possibly be Hz or settings related in my case but I felt this on other tactile models too. Curious if others have noticed the same? The simple solution seems to be avoiding, having both effects on the same unit.

Having a central unit or even 2 could be used for highlighting some effects like (speed/gear) etc and enable the other units to avoid mixing certain effects to one unit if it causes issues like this one I am finding.

 

[andycolh]

What is Shakeit?
Ok repost, i know what it is. I didnt read correctly.
For engine vibrations i think its very wierd vibrations on simhub bass Shakeit.

 

[Hiro Abe]

@Mr Latte I have definitely felt the same sensations you describe regarding ShakeIt's RPM. Anytime I try to employ any other effect on the same unit, I get what I consider a pulsing sensation.

I'm real curious on how you attached the exciter to your seat. Did you just stick it on? I see that your seat has a hard back as does mine. I am still looking for that engine vibe solution and perhaps this might suit me.

 

[Mr Latte]

@Mr Latte I have definitely felt the same sensations you describe regarding ShakeIt's RPM. Anytime I try to employ any other effect on the same unit, I get what I consider a pulsing sensation.

I'm real curious on how you attached the exciter to your seat. Did you just stick it on? I see that your seat has a hard back as does mine. I am still looking for that engine vibe solution and perhaps this might suit me.

I would try placing the "speed" effect on a different channel that is not using the RPM effect. It really seems to help. Part of the problem may be that both are very constant operational based effects. Think I set a threshold on the speed as well to @20 to have it not operating at really low speed values.

Yes this unit was simply stuck on. It will generate a lot of sound without crossover control.
I think we need to find a cheap solution in an amp/crossover that can power and control these how we need them to work. Mixed properly with audio and using multiple units on a seat for specific effects would be possible. Much potential and many options that need tried/tested.

Using iNuke DSP amp for such is overkill

Cheapo Crossover Example

 

[anton_Chez]

I get the knocking as well. I've tried to tune it out with lowering the % of Speed on the slider but at really high speeds, top of the rev range it's still there. I might try one at a time and see what happens. If you find a setting that tunes it out drop it in here. I know we might need to change it for our own setup but if we know which setting is the cause, we can play with it. I thought it was just the Mini's acting up again but it seems they're not the main cause..

 

[Mr Latte]

I was giving some thought to how on my own rig I will place the effects over the channels and tactile. At present the idea is still to have 4 outer channels combined with 4 inner channels placed on the rig. Using either 1x 7.1 card or 2x 5.1 cards.

Which effects are placed together takes into account their activity
With the Behringer HA6000 mixer units I use its easy to take some time to see what/when effects are operational to others. For me it is important to try to ensure two effects that operate at similar times/ways are not placed on the same unit.

My Proposed Config To Test

Effects on outer 4 channels
Wheelslip
Wheellock
L/R Bumps
Suspension Bumps
Speed
Lateral G

Effects On Inner 4 Channels
Engine RPM
Gear
Longitudinal G ACC & DEC

It would not be that expensive or impossible to use a seat with these units to place 4-6 units on a seat but then some of the individual units be used for specific effects.

You guys should really look at testing and utilising seat/body zones (under knees, shoulders, spine, sides). It's an excellent way to enhance the tactile you feel. Having these units combine with other larger or more capable units. Shakeit gives us excellent control of placing what effects go where. Also unlike Simvibe or other software it is not limited to a single soundcard or supporting only 4 units per card. We can use multiple cards/multiple units and easily place any effect to one or all channels.

It is worth experimenting with.
General tactile under the seat frame or seat supports is only one option, not necessarily the only thing we should do or consider. Once you have knees/shoulders/sides all feeling stereo based effects it greatly increases the immersion of them.

 

[nolive721]

@Mr Latte
You think what I mentioned few posts back makes sense then?
To create this upgrade path, starting with 2 pucks+1 amp(2.1channels) under my seat to get some stereo effects then add another 1puck under pedal and 1puck in the backseat driven by another 2.1channel amp, later down the road.

willing to go a bit cheap on the costs of this upgrade to my rig sorry, so reading some of your other comments about crossover control.
would such an amp be fine for that purpose?

https://www.amazon.co.jp/【新登場！】Nobs...85SA9M94TVW&psc=1&refRID=C36TKHVZM85SA9M94TVW

 

[Mr Latte]

@Mr Latte
You think what I mentioned few posts back makes sense then?
To create this upgrade path, starting with 2 pucks+1 amp(2.1channels) under my seat to get some stereo effects then add another 1puck under pedal and 1puck in the backseat driven by another 2.1channel amp, later down the road.

willing to go a bit cheap on the costs of this upgrade to my rig sorry, so reading some of your other comments about crossover control.
would such an amp be fine for that purpose?

https://www.amazon.co.jp/【新登場！】Nobsound-2-1チャンネル-パワーアンプ-サブウーファー-メール便発送不可/dp/B07BDL65Z2/ref=pd_sbs_23_4/356-0177722-0955853?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B07BDL65Z2&pd_rd_r=ebd8dc37-4734-11e9-9946-fb264a2a1625&pd_rd_w=AQsmq&pd_rd_wg=DSgp5&pf_rd_p=ad2ea29d-ea11-483c-9db2-6b5875bb9b73&pf_rd_r=C36TKHVZM85SA9M94TVW&psc=1&refRID=C36TKHVZM85SA9M94TVW

The problem with that amp and many similar amps in being a 2.1 based amp.
These I believe will filter the bass from the L/R channels to then output their bass (determined by crossover settings) as mono to an independent subwoofer channel. This is often referred to as a .1 channel. That is the same principle in using a 5.1 soundcard to output bass to the subwoofer channel.

What we need instead, is control in determining what frequency range we limit the L/R channels to use. Yet still maintaining the bass over stereo. Both are not the same thing

When we start to look at other hardware to do such then if taking into account the price of the additional hardware and a decent/budget type amp. We could run into a scenario that an amp like the Behringer NX 1000D may come in at an acceptable/similar price and contains the hardware already within the amps DSP.

Perhaps if some are interested, we need to look more into affordable options.There are cheap type manual controllers, also other EQ or DSP based hardware that bring "Crossover" control with additional features they may have.

The alternative is "software" based EQ/Crossover programs that could be used.


If you buy two affordable/basic tactile units its a good way to discover if you like it. There is nothing stopping you trying them in different places and experimenting.

 

[nolive721]

ok I guess you could mean that type of amp then?

https://www.amazon.com/rolls-SX45-Tiny-Stereo-Crossover/dp/B00102VWJK

 

[Mr Latte]

ok I guess you could mean that type of amp then?

https://www.amazon.com/rolls-SX45-Tiny-Stereo-Crossover/dp/B00102VWJK

It appears that offers some crossover control for the L/R stereo channels, also seems to support a mono low output as well. Note that its not an amp but just a crossover unit.

Manual
Is advertised as having a 12dB roll off.

Still doesn't appear to enable a user to manually set both the "high cut" and "low cut" filter range. For example, say we only wanted general operation for 0dB to be from 30Hz-200Hz.

Software Solutions
Some PC software based equalisers may be suitable and offer "crossover" control for a soundcard and then also be usable over multichannels. If we find an easy to follow/suitable software then normal amps can still be used.

Not got time at present to look much into options.
One option may be Equalizer APO

 

[Mr Latte]

Ongoing tests.
Well damn, two of those little Dayton DAEX Ultra units are quite surprisingly punchy for all their size.

They also responded well with some EQ and crossover control that I played around with via my iNuke amp. I very strongly recommend people try these. Place 2x of them on your shoulder regions, as shown. Just can't get over how good they are for so little money, they feel as if they are much bigger than they are. We just need to find ideal solutions to configure them right with a crossover/equaliser.

This video below with them being used for "Audio Tactile" was just superb.
If you use Simvibe or other telemetry only based tactile, then do yourself a favour and try a couple of these to either have as just additional "Audio Tactile" role or to mix in with telemetry based tactile effects and units you already use.

 

[anton_Chez]

Would you be able to Velcro or double side tape these little things to the seat? I don't want to drill into it but I do have some space exactly where you've shown in your pic. I have a spare SMSL amp too now, since I moved from 4 to 2 units. Would that be too powerful for the little pucks. I'd be interested in adding a couple of these, with audio tactile if possible. I have 2 sound cards and now the Pimax can be used as an audio source. Pretty sure it won't need to be run through the sound card I'm using now. Just some thoughts.

 

[Mr Latte]

Would you be able to Velcro or double side tape these little things to the seat? I don't want to drill into it but I do have some space exactly where you've shown in your pic. I have a spare SMSL amp too now, since I moved from 4 to 2 units. Would that be too powerful for the little pucks. I'd be interested in adding a couple of these, with audio tactile if possible. I have 2 sound cards and now the Pimax can be used as an audio source. Pretty sure it won't need to be run through the sound card I'm using now. Just some thoughts.

Anton, just to confirm mate, these units come with "3M VHB" (Very High Bond Sticker)
Peel / Press On and your done.

These do arrive, requiring a crimp terminal to be connected to the speaker cable. Also, they are only 20watt @ 4ohm so very easy to power as well. Care would perhaps be needed not to overpower them. These do not need to be driven that hard to remain comfortable, yet still, feel their detail. They can bottom if being run hard. With them so directly attached to the seat, if you set them to a moderate feeling sensation then this should be well within their wattage specifications.

We could purchase and re-apply more 3M VHB if testing at different positions.
An alternative may even be industrial strength velcro.

 

[Mr Latte]

TIP:

I think having 4 of these, with 2 on shoulders and 2 on sides would be very good to increase the STEREO tactile sensations. Some testing/experimentation could be interesting, a future deeper look into this will come and also covering how to mix/combine both audio and telemetry tactile to get the best of what both can bring.

Contact with other cars and curbs are examples but as this is "audio tactile" then in some titles you may feel the CPU or Opponent cars engine/exhaust positional reverb as they are alongside your car. This is one thing telemetry based tactile is also missing. Various titles allow us to alter the "opponent car" volumes so we have some level of control how we want this to feature.

If set with a high volume then the power output can travel from the left shoulder region to the right and vice versa, giving a stronger but more of a mono based sensation. So for improved channel detection using more than one pair of units at a lower volume output should improve this. As it will give excellent dispersion over the seat but restrict and better maintain the "hotspot" of tactile energy each unit displaces confined more to the point of its own installation.

Personally, I think that may be better.
Running each as an amplified pair on their own amps would give more volume control to each pair as opposed to wiring them to operate as 8ohm and 2 units per channel.

Heres some other excellent videos for testing:

Cockpit at 3:47


I will later look to run further tests and purchase another model based on the performance of these to also try this 40W model

 

[Mr Latte]

@Mr Latte I have definitely felt the same sensations you describe regarding ShakeIt's RPM. Anytime I try to employ any other effect on the same unit, I get what I consider a pulsing sensation.

I'm real curious on how you attached the exciter to your seat. Did you just stick it on? I see that your seat has a hard back as does mine. I am still looking for that engine vibe solution and perhaps this might suit me.

Try these settings.
Alter volumes to suit but keep the Hz working in harmony.

 

[Shrive81]

kinda jumping in here and haven't seen I but I have Rseat N1 and had the transducer adapter with two mini LFE's and loved it but recently put on a Next level motion seat and trying ot find a place to mount the units. Has anyone attached the mini LFE to the a actual seat back?

 

[anton_Chez]

Had mine mounted on a plate sticking out behind the seat. Screwed the plate in between the platform and the seat.