Tactile Immersion - General Discussion - Hardware & Software

[RCHeliguy]

Reality check time.

This looks like a lot of work even for someone who was vested in the outcome.

Asking for a complete technical specification from a non-technical person is guaranteed to fail every time.

Asking someone to do work to disprove their personal opinion is guaranteed to fail every time.

Hell, I'm interested in the results, and I'm an engineer and it still looks like a lot of work.

Just saying that I have an idea who's going to end up doing some of this analysis. Please be patient and remember this needs to be fun

I'm keeping an open mind to what the D-Box is capable of. I understand theoretically where limitations may be, but sometimes people come up with creative solutions.

Can we take a rain check on this circular debate for a little while?

 

[metalnwood]

How many times do we have to bring the same ol’ minutia to the forefront - resulting in distraction . In the end, it’s what the full experience brings the driver/player. All the measuring and calculations in the world don’t matter. Plenty of player/driver opinions (recent and coming soon), which is a good thing

I agree about the full experience.. Optimising one thing doesnt necessarily lead to the best full experience for somewhen when different systems are in play.

When I added the RB isolators to my rig I did it at the same time I added my lfe/tst's. It made sense for me to do it in one lot of work. I really, really dislike pulling my rig apart. I dont like getting in to tight places, neither does my back or my neck

The end result is that immediately I felt the dampened effect it had on some motion effects. If I wanted it to feel like that I could have done it through software to dampen them but unfortunately you cant really reverse the effect in software to make up for the isolators.

I am now used to it and dont consider it a problem but I have wondered about removing them as I astill have options to get my tactile very close to the seat so I think it could still be ok. I cant say if it will be better or worse for me but I probably fall in to the bracket right in the middle of the bell curve of people who are satisfied and value time in the seat more than time pulling apart the seat.

I dont think we see a lot of people getting in to the minor details of motion tactile because it really is secondary.

Just a thought on the captured feet. dbox dont really list any specs on how fast it moves, how fast it accelerates to get to particular speeds under normal working conditions. I think that more than one vendor here has shown that the ramp up times have in impact on how fast these actuators can actually move for small movements - the majority of movements we have that generate a lot of speed. Also, with a captive foot I guess you could pull down at faster than 1G but depending what you drive, most cars are not coming back to earth any fast than gravity is assisting them. Aside from that, my rig without captured feet can certainly be uncomfortable and make driving in VR very difficult if I wanted to make it that way so I am far from needing more ability to have it more responsive.

 

[MarkModdy]

…I really, really dislike pulling my rig apart. I dont like getting in to tight places, neither does my back or my neck

…glad it’s not just me that feels like that then!

 

[RCHeliguy]

…glad it’s not just me that feels like that then!

Some of us enjoy messing with our rigs a little too much.

 

[MarkModdy]

I remember as a kid playing with Lego, scalextric or Meccano for hours on end sitting/ laying/ kneeling on the floor…

…now just 10 minutes on my knees, making adjustments to the latest ‘fandango widget’ on my rig…and I am looking for medical assistance to get me off the floor!

I don’t like getting old…. But still more tactile tweaks planned in a weeks time… just a glutton for punishment

 

[RCHeliguy]

I remember as a kid playing with Lego, scalextric or Meccano for hours on end sitting/ laying/ kneeling on the floor…

…now just 10 minutes on my knees, making adjustments to the latest ‘fandango widget’ on my rig…and I am looking for medical assistance to get me off the floor!

I don’t like getting old…. But still more tactile tweaks planned in a weeks time… just a glutton for punishment

Sorry to hear that!

There are always limits and I'm not enjoying getting old either.

However I still managed this last bit of rig surgery while sick with Covid, so I think I still have a few years of wrenching on my rig ahead of me.

However, the take away is always that we do this hobby for fun. There is such a thing as good enough, where the relentless search for perfection is work and not fun.

 

[NetLawMan]

Your the one that tried different tactile solutions and still are seeking to get something to work well?

When asked you do not seem to be able to even answer questions about how the D-Box haptics operates. On every occasion, you seem to get defensive but just can't go out of your way to actually help better understand what it does.

You have been given plenty of information on advanced tactile options or potential benefits. The least you could do is offer to help with some of the queries I asked.

It may indeed matter in knowing what D Box outputs for haptics if you want to apply additional effects from Simhub. Knowing what some of its effects use, enables us to then apply subharmonics, additional octaves, and higher frequencies with additional harmonics directly into the seat that are in line with what it already outputs. Worth a try certainly, done before, not to my knowledge.

You question Sigma repeatedly over multiple times seeking detailed info about how their own motion haptics operate and considering if that is an option to change to. I find that quite weird you seek improvements but refuse to help me seeking to help you, especially as what we can help you experience is not done by many people...

As for your TSTs you fell into the typical trap of having one single unit/model try to handle all the frequencies the effects have to generate. On top of that the quality and how the effects work are major factors in determining how good what it is you are feeling. You give no indication of the effects you tried.

So either, please stop talking and talking and talking but instead pull your finger out and perhaps try to be more cooperative or try the advice given.

You spend too much time looking at my old posts . It’s creepy!

If you had read carefully, my questions to Sigma were about determining whether I would get the same haptic benefit with their system, if I go with their 6” system to replace my 1.5” d-box system. My experience is that the d-box haptics are sufficient. I am not anti-tactile. I just personally don’t see the value in the type of highly-complex tactile you promote given the type of rig I have. Therefore, not sure what your point is.

It’s not a trap to use only one type of transducer. It’s quite intentional on my part as I am not interested in the complexity of multiple channels and multiple transducers for what on my rig, would be of limited additional benefit. As I have said before, the game companies put time into engine sounds, so I like taking advantage of that with my Clark transducer.

I am also not interested in additional simhub effects because for me, they are trivial relative to the multiple systems working together (motion and motion based haptics, gseat, Gbelt, pedal exciters, and wind).

Other than custom tuned engine sounds, you have yet to be clear about what other benefit I would get given all of the effort your solution requires.

Instead of arguing with me because I don’t subscibe to your premium tactile obsession, go out and buy a d-box…test it….dissect it…..criticize it. At least then your comparative conclusions would have legitimacy and merit . And you wouldn’t need to keep asking people to do your hobby for you. You could enjoy diving deep on your own (as much as you want)

BTW - I didn’t measure frequency ranges today. Instead I did a bunch of stages in DR 2.0 after about 8 GT3 laps at Spa in ACC. Time well spent!

 

[NetLawMan]

…glad it’s not just me that feels like that then!

I find every minor adjustment is a project now. No going backwards. I am almost done with my fiddling though. Building a custom dashboard and then I am done, as it will have been 1.5 years of building, learning and rebuilding.

 

[NetLawMan]

I agree about the full experience.. Optimising one thing doesnt necessarily lead to the best full experience for somewhen when different systems are in play.

When I added the RB isolators to my rig I did it at the same time I added my lfe/tst's. It made sense for me to do it in one lot of work. I really, really dislike pulling my rig apart. I dont like getting in to tight places, neither does my back or my neck

The end result is that immediately I felt the dampened effect it had on some motion effects. If I wanted it to feel like that I could have done it through software to dampen them but unfortunately you cant really reverse the effect in software to make up for the isolators.

I am now used to it and dont consider it a problem but I have wondered about removing them as I astill have options to get my tactile very close to the seat so I think it could still be ok. I cant say if it will be better or worse for me but I probably fall in to the bracket right in the middle of the bell curve of people who are satisfied and value time in the seat more than time pulling apart the seat.

I dont think we see a lot of people getting in to the minor details of motion tactile because it really is secondary.

Just a thought on the captured feet. dbox dont really list any specs on how fast it moves, how fast it accelerates to get to particular speeds under normal working conditions. I think that more than one vendor here has shown that the ramp up times have in impact on how fast these actuators can actually move for small movements - the majority of movements we have that generate a lot of speed. Also, with a captive foot I guess you could pull down at faster than 1G but depending what you drive, most cars are not coming back to earth any fast than gravity is assisting them. Aside from that, my rig without captured feet can certainly be uncomfortable and make driving in VR very difficult if I wanted to make it that way so I am far from needing more ability to have it more responsive.

Totally agree. These days, the tuning for me is really focused on having the systems all work together seamlessly and feel as one. And, it’s a different effort for different titles. But when it’s done … what an experience!

 

[NetLawMan]

Your the one that tried different tactile solutions and still are seeking to get something to work well?

When asked you do not seem to be able to even answer questions about how the D-Box haptics operates. On every occasion, you seem to get defensive but just can't go out of your way to actually help better understand what it does.

You have been given plenty of information on advanced tactile options or potential benefits. The least you could do is offer to help with some of the queries I asked.

It may indeed matter in knowing what D Box outputs for haptics if you want to apply additional effects from Simhub. Knowing what some of its effects use, enables us to then apply subharmonics, additional octaves, and higher frequencies with additional harmonics directly into the seat that are in line with what it already outputs. Worth a try certainly, done before, not to my knowledge.

You question Sigma repeatedly over multiple times seeking detailed info about how their own motion haptics operate and considering if that is an option to change to. I find that quite weird you seek improvements but refuse to help me seeking to help you, especially as what we can help you experience is not done by many people...

As for your TSTs you fell into the typical trap of having one single unit/model try to handle all the frequencies the effects have to generate. On top of that the quality and how the effects work are major factors in determining how good what it is you are feeling. You give no indication of the effects you tried.

So either, please stop talking and talking and talking but instead pull your finger out and perhaps try to be more cooperative or try the advice given.

Ask me a question that makes sense, and that I can actually answer, and I am happy to answer. But don’t expect me to pretend to be an expert in things I am not, or ask me to go do a bunch of work because you think it will result in you proving something. I have always provided my thoughts on tactile as my opinion about what I like as a user of my rig. I am not interested in DIY, so I don’t have a bunch of DIY info for you.

 

[Mr Latte]

@NetLawMan
I wasnt searching for your old posts, I just stumbled across them within the excellent info Sigma give about their own motion.

Simhub and espically trying to do advanced tactile is very much explorative and d.i.y focused. Creativity and testing are needed to achieve new potential and possibilities. Does that mean people coming into it cant enjoy the effects developments, ideas or work of others and not just my own btw. Of course they can and if you want improved tactile you have more insight now than you had before.

We have already helped GS5 owners who took advice and installed multi exciters I recommended. These operate better than the Dayton Pucs Simxperence designed it to use, offering more wattage output and wider frequency range. Now those guys can enjoy 4 units in the base paddles of the seat and 4 units in the rear back paddles.

If you dont want the bother of installing or testing additional tactile options or if the effort is not worth the prize. Then what or why are you getting involved with tactile discussions here in this thread when in the past, mention of additional tactile options in motion based thread with talk of haptics annoyed you. Clearly you have issues with such discussions.

I offered to reach out to you personally and help you on a 1-1 as you are far from the potential possible in how you could be enjoying more tactile but seem to dismiss everything or play down things and are not willing to try.

You could of given simple feedback on what for you D-Box haptics does well and what it does, that you find is not so good regards any of its effects.

 

[Philip K]

@NetLawMan and @Mr Latte, just to interject before this gets silly, our hobby is all about enjoyment, once that stops, nothing else really matters. This is about us (well me) being failed racing drivers and wanting to feel some of that exhilaration. So, either just agree to disagree or hug it out and be done.

I‘m loving my (nearly finished) racebass install with my sim3d pedal rumblers along with motion, gseat and gbelt. They all bring something to the table in different ways, but it is a lot of money invested and it’s not for everyone. Same as the triples v vr arguments or even clothes, one size does not fit all.

we can’t all agree on everything in life and priorities will differ, some just want to race, some love the in depth detail. Just enjoy what you enjoy and let’s all just keep it friendly and get along like the nice bunch of folk we all are!

thank you and good day to all

 

[No Depth]

Hello,

I would like to have vibrations on my pedals for ABS, wheel slip lock,....and saw videos of the rumble kit of Sim 3D:

View attachment 591092

Pedal Rumble Motor Kit | Sim 3D

Please Note: Please note that due to VERY high order volumes lead times on this product are quite long at present, for an update on your order please get in touch. Although my aim is to process within 6-8 weeks at present it can be longer than this. Having the ability to feel when the car is at...

www.sim-3d.co.uk

and DIY from Amstudio:

That sounds very good but I am also thinking if using transducers for this purpose.

Something like that:

Dayton Audio - TT25-8 PUCK Tactile Transducer Mini Bass Shaker

TT25-8 PUCK Tactile Transducer Mini Bass Shaker

www.daytonaudio.com

View attachment 591084



What do you think is better? the Xbox/PS vibration motors or the transducers?

I’ve run both on my pedals.

I actually found the puck worked ok, it offers a better range of vibration feel in simhub(but still limited next yo bigger transducers). It was unwieldy though, bulky and unless you get a good mount, it can be a pain at times.

Personally once I swapped to Sim3D motors I never looked back. Just fits much nicer, it’s vibration effect feels unique and easily identifiable. It’s become one of my favorite rig elements.

That said, I do have a Buttkicker under my pedals handling some effects like suspension, so it and the Sim3D together output an interesting concert. The sim3D acting as warning effects, while the buttkicker is giving immersive stuff. It’s great and there is no confusion in feel.

Also the sim3D printed Arduino housing and cabling is very well produced. High recommendation.

 

[MarkModdy]

Personally once I swapped to Sim3D motors I never looked back. Just fits much nicer, it’s vibration effect feels unique and easily identifiable. It’s become one of my favorite rig elements.

That said, I do have a Buttkicker under my pedals handling some effects like suspension, so it and the Sim3D together output an interesting concert. The sim3D acting as warning effects, while the buttkicker is giving immersive stuff. It’s great and there is no confusion in feel.

Also the sim3D printed Arduino housing and cabling is very well produced. High recommendation.

Plus one for all the 3 paragraphs above…

Exactly my experience too… like for like …

I too recommend sim3D kit… top notch indeed!

 

[NetLawMan]

Plus one for all the 3 paragraphs above…

Exactly my experience too… like for like …

I too recommend sim3D kit… top notch indeed!

Likewise. I have the Sim3D pedal kit and it works just dandy. I still go back and forth as to whether I like driving it with Simhub or SRS. I also find that for many games I get sensory overload if too many effects are tied to them. For example, in DR, I do wheel lock only.

 

[No Depth]

Likewise. I have the Sim3D pedal kit and it works just dandy. I still go back and forth as to whether I like driving it with Simhub or SRS. I also find that for many games I get sensory overload if too many effects are tied to them. For example, in DR, I do wheel lock only.

Yea, I kind of settled on just doing the usual Lock/Slip assigned to appropriate pedals. I ran only these for a good while at first, but eventually wanted more as there was a lot of dead air I found.

So I added Deccel G-Force on brake(I enjoy getting that harsh vibration under foot as I brake, gives a feeling of activity). Finally, RPM with a custom curve spiking at around 80-100 as it hits limit.

Feel like all of those usually work well in tandem. Deccel may impede on Lock on occasion, but eh...I can tell regardless.

Bottom-Line though, they are awesome.

 

[OlaGB]

Stop comparing motion vs tactile, it’s just not a topic.
Neither does both motion and tactile _best_ by them selves.

If you got the money and time, get both, and learn to use/setup properly. Thats the best solution.

The rest of the discussion is about personal compromises of economy, labour, level of competence, system complexity, and what you want to achieve in the end.

 

[drvrn]

@ No Depth
@ MarkModdy
@ NetLawMan

THANK YOU for your feedback on the transducer/bass shaker/ vibration motors for the pedals guys!

That helps!

 

[Alvaro de la Orden]

I remember as a kid playing with Lego, scalextric or Meccano for hours on end sitting/ laying/ kneeling on the floor…

…now just 10 minutes on my knees, making adjustments to the latest ‘fandango widget’ on my rig…and I am looking for medical assistance to get me off the floor!

I don’t like getting old…. But still more tactile tweaks planned in a weeks time… just a glutton for punishment

isn´t that why some installed a PANIC button for their rigs??? xD

 

[Alvaro de la Orden]

I’ve run both on my pedals.

I actually found the puck worked ok, it offers a better range of vibration feel in simhub(but still limited next yo bigger transducers). It was unwieldy though, bulky and unless you get a good mount, it can be a pain at times.

Personally once I swapped to Sim3D motors I never looked back. Just fits much nicer, it’s vibration effect feels unique and easily identifiable. It’s become one of my favorite rig elements.

That said, I do have a Buttkicker under my pedals handling some effects like suspension, so it and the Sim3D together output an interesting concert. The sim3D acting as warning effects, while the buttkicker is giving immersive stuff. It’s great and there is no confusion in feel.

Also the sim3D printed Arduino housing and cabling is very well produced. High recommendation.

gosh now I have to order them for my DCSimracing pedals... my wallet thanks you