Tactile Immersion - General Discussion - Hardware & Software

[anton_Chez]

I am just pointing out that tactile, just like motion, just like DD wheels that Mark points out above have people searching the net for profiles because they will probably find something that makes them happy

And there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that. People have different strengths and interests. That’s why we have drivers/riders and engineers. Some want to think, others want to DO. There’s nothing wrong about using a profile or system that someone else has put together. How many of us has asked at least once, “anyone got a setup for xxx car/track?” I’d say most of us at some stage.

 

[metalnwood]

And there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that. People have different strengths and interests. That’s why we have drivers/riders and engineers. Some want to think, others want to DO. There’s nothing wrong about using a profile or system that someone else has put together. How many of us has asked at least once, “anyone got a setup for xxx car/track?” I’d say most of us at some stage.

Maybe I wasn't entirely clear I 100% agree... my wheel profile, off the net.. my sfx profiles... all copied with a small change for rig specific thing.. tactile. pretty much a copy I like to race and fly these days, my hobby is not in the equipment.

I have also spent ages mucking about so there I can empathise with that side of it but for most of us we want to get what we need to do for a good experience and enjoy this sim. Thats pretty much me today. I like having the gear, using the gear but I dont spend a week to get a single effect right. I am going to get bigger tactile units... Will I get them as good sa they can be? Probably not unless someone shares their profiles but I will have better than what I have now.

 

[anton_Chez]

I was agreeing with you too. I am more of a tinkerer than most, but it comes time to actually draw the picture rather than stare at the pretty pencils.

 

[anton_Chez]

Aaaaaaaand baited into buying a TST. The Gold and Platinum are MORE expensive than the BK CT & LFE's, so I went with the TST 239 Silver and intend to mount that under my seat (there's heaps of room for this one due to the shape and profile) and leave the BK CT on the rear of the frame on the timber mount, upright behind the seat.

Everything else is going. The 2 x BK Mini LFE's I have should server no purpose now, the 2 channel SMSL amp that is powering them should also be able to go IF I can run the TST with the CT on the one NX1000D. I'll need to see how it behaves with one channel needing 4ohms and the other requiring 2ohms. I wonder what will happen if I just run the TST at 2ohms and limit the power?

Anyway, thought I'd give it a go. The CT has so much power now that the Mini's are pretty much wasted and at least I'll get a whole different level of feedback with the TST and it's much different approach to tacile and hz range than the CT.

 

[Mr Latte]

Something I’ve been thinking about regarding stereo effects…. It has been discussed many times that in order to avoid “cross-talk” of the vibrations, you need to isolate pedals, different areas of your chassis, etc. But a race car doesn’t have that left/right isolation. I’d imagine in a real race car there is plenty of “cross-talk” as well. (I don’t have any experience in a real race car).

Isn’t it possible that having the visual stereo representation (we can see that we just drove over kerbs with our left wheels) and an aural representation (we hear the game audio of the kerb more in our left ear) makes our body interpret the tactile as coming more from the left side? And that this is how it would be in a real race car, even if you “think” you felt the vibrations coming from one side or the other?

(I know this touches on the debate between “realism” and “immersion” - and whether or not a sim should strive for one over the other).

Just throwing this out there to get some thoughts from others.

Will respond more to this later but a motion rig if it had crosstalk then how would it properly move each independent actuator?

 

[No Depth]

Yeah that’s cool. Fully understand that. I have tried the exciter setup but found them for the most part ineffective compared to the larger units and even when they were running on their own were fairly underwhelming. That was only compared to the Mini LFE’s, which obviously are no match for the big boy.

Just going to add that I feel similarly after putting four Exciters on my seat. They are felt when off vs on, especially testing by themselves, but when i also flip on the other two larger BK I have alongside my seat mover, they just get drowned out.

I tune, tweak, range hz all over the place too. Either I have the gain too high so they clack and irritate, or too low that i question if they are on at all.

I am not ready to give up on them yet, but am considering the possibility of ditching them all for a BK Advance or something bolted directly to the seat somewhere.

 

[anton_Chez]

Get an LFE or Concert. I liken the exciters to being tickled on the neck while being smashed over the head with a sledgehammer. They just cannot compete (in my testing) while other units are active. They indeed are very easy to overdrive, and the problem lies in the fact that even when mounted directly up against your body on the seat, you feel the need to drive them as hard as you possibly can to get anything out of them. And my experience is only with the BK Mini LFE's, I can't imaging how I'd feel them with the Concert banging about.

This is MY experience and I have every right to share my thoughts based on what I have personally experienced. People are obviously free to try them but I am definitely in the camp now of less, larger units rather than a bunch of small ones. My intended setup of 1 x BK CT and 1 x TST 239 should offer me the best tactile I've had to date. Couple that with the G-Belt and it should be a very complete and rounded sim racing experience.

 

[iv13]

Hello everyone,

Im curious about tactile stuff. I am an absolute newbie when it coes to this.
Only thing i successfully mounted is the rumble kit from sim3d on my pedals.

Im looking for something that would help me understand better whats going on with the car. Ive read that there are buttkickers or something else to help with this.

Hardware wise, how it looks to me, ill be fine with 2 bass shakers, at the back end of the rig, and something to get the signal to them. Correct?

If so -> any hardware recommendations? Are there some go-to devices that would be economically alright?

P1X rig is what i have to mount it on, also recommendations on what to mount, and where, would be appreciated.

 

[No Depth]

Hello everyone,

Im curious about tactile stuff. I am an absolute newbie when it coes to this.
Only thing i successfully mounted is the rumble kit from sim3d on my pedals.

Im looking for something that would help me understand better whats going on with the car. Ive read that there are buttkickers or something else to help with this.

Hardware wise, how it looks to me, ill be fine with 2 bass shakers, at the back end of the rig, and something to get the signal to them. Correct?

If so -> any hardware recommendations? Are there some go-to devices that would be economically alright?

P1X rig is what i have to mount it on, also recommendations on what to mount, and where, would be appreciated.

It’s not the easiest question given this is a rabbit hole that has filled 200+ pages of this very thread(and worth skimming with a bit of free time). Much of which can get technically overwhelming, that may not appear useful to most curious users that similarly just want a plug n play fun option.

That said, the easiest initial solution I find is the Buttkicker Gamer 2. It’s an all in one box with a transducer, amp, and you only need a mounting solution to fit to your seat or the p1-x rail. It’s a good entry to see and feel how this all works and it often may be plenty to just get some fun feedback before considering going crazy as many here have.

Otherwise you are looking at sourcing everything separately, cables, amps, soundcards, tools, not to mention means of isolation….it’s a lot. So the Gamer 2 is popular for good reason. (And you may love it enough that you end up wanting more).

Plenty of resources via YouTube or google on setting up the Gamer 2 with Simhub and mounting easily too. So again start there I’d say and once you get a feel with it, then you can consider going deeper.

 

[EsxPaul]

I'm surprised that you guys feel that you never got much feeling out of the Exiters. I'm only using four of them and although they certainly don't have the massive punch of a LFE/Concert, I could happily run mine on their own and get plenty enough feeback to be satisfied. I can easily distinguish what they are doing, even when the Concert is banging away and doing it's thing

 

[anton_Chez]

I could feel them but after the faff of having the wires running all down the seat and comparing their effectiveness with the larger units (even though they were really the smaller units of the BK range) then I decided it was not worth keeping them. Espcecially with a harness attached, now a G-Belt mounted on the seat also, as well as the previous SFX-100 build, it wasn't giving the amount of feedback I'd deem worthy of their keeping. Add to that the fear of destroying them with over-driving. But I can definitely see others finding them much more useful than I did.

 

[No Depth]

I'm surprised that you guys feel that you never got much feeling out of the Exiters. I'm only using four of them and although they certainly don't have the massive punch of a LFE/Concert, I could happily run mine on their own and get plenty enough feeback to be satisfied. I can easily distinguish what they are doing, even when the Concert is banging away and doing it's thing

Perhaps I need to reconsider what effects I have them used for in Simhub.

I too have four of them mounted direct to my NRG Prisma seat, currently settled on having them setup for suspension effects(ie. “Road vibration etc..” in Simhub. All pushing in the 50-80hz range).

May I ask how you set yours up? Willing to try something else before I give them up.

 

[EsxPaul]

Perhaps I need to reconsider what effects I have them used for in Simhub.

I too have four of them mounted direct to my NRG Prisma seat, currently settled on having them setup for suspension effects(ie. “Road vibration etc..” in Simhub. All pushing in the 50-80hz range).

May I ask how you set yours up? Willing to try something else before I give them up.

Sure, here's a few pics showing my channel mapping so you can see which effects (mainly taken from the various templates that Mr. Latte has posted in this huge thread) are being sent to them. They are running somewhere in the range of 39-91Hz, depending on the effect. I'm also running them through a t.racks DSP which helps with boosting volume, but only in the ranges where it's wanted.

 

[mgh24]

@anton_Chez - thanks for your perspective. I was thinking along similar, or parallel, lines this morning. I think many (most?) of us are looking for bang-for-the-buck to add a little something to our experience. I have nothing but admiration for someone that can design and fabricate a rig like what was mentioned and linked to earlier, but I would not know how to even guess at the money invested in that rig. $10,000? $15,000? More? There is a very small percentile of sim racers that can afford that, then subtract from that the number of people that can afford it, but can't fabricate their own parts.

Back to my audio analogy. There are folks that spend $2-3000 on a pair of headphones, and they are worth every penny to them, but I know for a fact, that a fraction of that can get you extremely good quality sound. As good as the $2000 pair? No, but darn good, and probably 80-90% there. So I am trying to wrap my mind around what is recommended, and what can be had for less, but still be very enjoyable.

 

[metalnwood]

@anton_Chez - thanks for your perspective. I was thinking along similar, or parallel, lines this morning. I think many (most?) of us are looking for bang-for-the-buck to add a little something to our experience. I have nothing but admiration for someone that can design and fabricate a rig like what was mentioned and linked to earlier, but I would not know how to even guess at the money invested in that rig. $10,000? $15,000? More? There is a very small percentile of sim racers that can afford that, then subtract from that the number of people that can afford it, but can't fabricate their own parts.

Back to my audio analogy. There are folks that spend $2-3000 on a pair of headphones, and they are worth every penny to them, but I know for a fact, that a fraction of that can get you extremely good quality sound. As good as the $2000 pair? No, but darn good, and probably 80-90% there. So I am trying to wrap my mind around what is recommended, and what can be had for less, but still be very enjoyable.

That is the hard part, I agree with your audio analogy but as far as tactile transducers there is something like the exciters, the mini lfe and ones like it and the larger units. All at their price points, all delivering more tactile because of their physical properties and no one undercutting the market selling basically the same thing for 20% of the cost.

Where the anology becomes more relevant is getting a couple units that add to the experience over getting many units, and the required amps, etc.

Interested to hear about the exciters mixed with the other ones. I was going to get a bunch of exciters but they went out of stock. As I already have the 4 mini lfe's, bolted directly to the seat doing a good job for what they do I get the feeling that they should just stay where they are and add the lfe/tst on top.

 

[iv13]

It’s not the easiest question given this is a rabbit hole that has filled 200+ pages of this very thread(and worth skimming with a bit of free time). Much of which can get technically overwhelming, that may not appear useful to most curious users that similarly just want a plug n play fun option.

That said, the easiest initial solution I find is the Buttkicker Gamer 2. It’s an all in one box with a transducer, amp, and you only need a mounting solution to fit to your seat or the p1-x rail. It’s a good entry to see and feel how this all works and it often may be plenty to just get some fun feedback before considering going crazy as many here have.

Otherwise you are looking at sourcing everything separately, cables, amps, soundcards, tools, not to mention means of isolation….it’s a lot. So the Gamer 2 is popular for good reason. (And you may love it enough that you end up wanting more).

Plenty of resources via YouTube or google on setting up the Gamer 2 with Simhub and mounting easily too. So again start there I’d say and once you get a feel with it, then you can consider going deeper.

Yeah exactly, thats why Im asking, 200 of pages and im not sure where to look. So i am asking here:

Ive read about the gamer 2, and i wasnt sure if it will be "enough" to get that feeling to understand the car.

Ive had a feeling that only 2 buttkickers (nongamer) or something similar, with an amp, would be enough. I dont mind spending a few hundred, but im also not ready to get into some insane amounts.

 

[mgh24]

Hello everyone,

Im curious about tactile stuff. I am an absolute newbie when it coes to this.
Only thing i successfully mounted is the rumble kit from sim3d on my pedals.

Im looking for something that would help me understand better whats going on with the car. Ive read that there are buttkickers or something else to help with this.

Hardware wise, how it looks to me, ill be fine with 2 bass shakers, at the back end of the rig, and something to get the signal to them. Correct?

If so -> any hardware recommendations? Are there some go-to devices that would be economically alright?

P1X rig is what i have to mount it on, also recommendations on what to mount, and where, would be appreciated.

I just put a very basic setup on my P1-X (have a thread "first foray into tactile feedback").

I have very little experience, but one thing I learned for certain, mounting something directly on the the side of that rig will not transfer well to your seat. I had to put something between my seat rails and the main part of the frame to keep the feedback from being lost throughout the rig.

This was with two transducers, not a Buttkicker.

 

[metalnwood]

I might have said it on here before but I still wonder how a design like this might feel for rpm kind of effects.

Instead of a transducer, a shaft supported both ends with a reasonable sized eccentric weight on it. Driven by a servo.

It wouldnt rotate at a continuous speed but make half revolution with a stop and do it over and over. Aeceleration/decceleration and top speed of that half revolution would impact how it felt. As it got faster the characteristics of this would change again.

I have a feeling something like this could be tuned quite well and give good output. But it would be something that would take up most the space under your seat so.... Dont know, the idea interests me but I dont have a 6th servo to try it.

 

[mgh24]

Get an LFE or Concert. I liken the exciters to being tickled on the neck while being smashed over the head with a sledgehammer. They just cannot compete (in my testing) while other units are active. They indeed are very easy to overdrive, and the problem lies in the fact that even when mounted directly up against your body on the seat, you feel the need to drive them as hard as you possibly can to get anything out of them. And my experience is only with the BK Mini LFE's, I can't imaging how I'd feel them with the Concert banging about.

This is MY experience and I have every right to share my thoughts based on what I have personally experienced. People are obviously free to try them but I am definitely in the camp now of less, larger units rather than a bunch of small ones. My intended setup of 1 x BK CT and 1 x TST 239 should offer me the best tactile I've had to date. Couple that with the G-Belt and it should be a very complete and rounded sim racing experience.

I'm confused (easily done). I like the idea of fewer and stronger for simplicities sake. You are changing to 1 x BK CT, 1 X TST 239, but what are you changing from?

When writing of "exciters", does that mean a small transducer like the PUI audio ASX11504? I am using two of those mounted on a board below my seat, not to my seat. Still trying to understand terminology and all the different combinations of transducers.

Thanks! And would love to hear back on results when you make the change.

Edit - the BK-CT needs 400 Watts! I better learn quite a bit more about amplification before I even start thinking about that

 

[blekenbleu]

a shaft supported both ends with a reasonable sized eccentric weight on it. Driven by a servo

While allowing direct control of frequency, strength of vibrations will be determined by effective rotating mass, mass to which it is attached, and attachment stiffness (spring constant) which determine resonances. In other words, unlike bass shakers and exciters, amplitude and frequency cannot be independently controlled.