So you think you know about force feedback?

[Metla]

They could still use the info to build a better FFB model, after all they have the budget for it and it would make a better product.

.I'm firmly of the opinion that epic arcade games can and should be built on a detailed physics and ffb model.

 

[Flip-Flop Driver]

They could still use the info to build a better FFB model, after all they have the budget for it and it would make a better product.

.I'm firmly of the opinion that epic arcade games can and should be built on a detailed physics and ffb model.

They actually updated the FFB at the end of last year. Before it all you have in the settings files were several rumble effects.
But I still don't like it at all in FH4.
Their FAQ even mention some of the stuff from this topic:

Q: What if I don’t want any FFB tricks like dampers and springs, just raw physics?


A: If your goal is as close to raw physics force as possible, try this:


Setting the damper and spring to 0 removes most of the tricks. Reduce rumble until you can barely just feel it. Reducing Force Feedback Understeer will effectively make you feel the understeer more, because it removes the mechanical trail effect, so you solely feel the pneumatic trail. If you run understeer to max you will feel less understeer (FFB drops when exceeds the peak), effectively it increases the mechanical trail effect, so post peak the force remains higher. Try leaving FFB minimum at the default setting. This will, roughly, give you pneumatic in raw. FFB Minimum alters the ramp-up of pneumatic trail (somewhat counterintuitively). Turning it down all the way is almost like having a flat tire; high forces at low lateral loads.

 

[ShredatorFIN]

If you think people playing Forza or NFS care, I'd say it's a safe bet you're mistaken.

But if they had a somewhat logical FFB that made some sense, they'd get new players in addition to existing ones. Wreckfest has been successful among both groups

Besides, I play Forza Horizon despite the lackluster FFB. And I'd kill for a game like that with a bit more realism and better FFB. The production values are just on another level compared to sims

 

[Metla]

Exactly, Wreckfest is the perfect example.

There is no need for arcade game driving models to continue to be as shallow as they were in 1997.

 

[Spinelli]

FFB is still fundamentally the same technology from the 1990s which I think is fine for standard, non-DD wheels but not for the power, acceleration, fidelity, etc. of DD-wheels.

1. "Real-life" FFB is basically torque-based, not position and/or velocity based like game-FFB.

2. "Real-life" FFB is a reactive (ie. passive) system, not an active system like game-FFB.

3. Microsoft Direct Input (limitations aside from previous 2 points)

Game's have gotten better with their side's FFB modelling - what they can do from their end - for example, less "canned" effects, modelling forces from a part of the virtual car's steering system and coding that into FFB, etc. but fundamental FFB technology itself that's running all our games has barely progressed, if at all, since it's inception in the 1990s.

Filters are very important in trying to get more realistic FFB behaviour. I believe telemetry-based filters can take things even further. I have advocated a SAT filter to Granite Devices (Simucube makers) to help with way disproportionately over-powered SAT forces in basically all sims. GD said they have thought about this but it would be extremely tricky and probably almost impossible to do if it's not-telemetry based. I hope GD ventures into telemetry-based FFB (but in a very simple manner, not like Accuforce which I think is way too convoluted and obscure).

 

[bogani]

I wish certain AAA development studios would watch this video... the likes who make Forza Horizon, NFS and such. Maybe even Codemasters could check it. Okay Slightly Mad studios too

Codies tried to go with what you actually feel through the wheel at first with DR2 but "hurt durr it's WRONG, the wheel should shake etc etc" changed that.

Good thing you can tweak it still.

 

[diezz]

I m only one with DFGT here?

 

[PAWANH]

WARNING LONG (BUT NOTE WORTHY) POST!.

With this FFB topic getting more attention than ever with the introduction of the DD wheels, i feel i have to at least give a little of my perspective on this...

A few months ago, i decided to start into the world of 'real' sim racing; in that i mean purchasing an actual wheel & pedals. Now, obviously as this was my first step, i didn't want (or need) to purchase a set that wouldn't cost a significant amount but just enough to give me a taste as to what sim racing with a wheel is all about!.

I eventually decided to go with a Thrustmaster TX Leather Edition/ T3PA Pro pedals and the TH8A shifter.
To most, they would've most likely have advised that i go for the Fanatec kit and while that may be true, spending an increased amount of money on something which effectively produces the same results (albeit a tad smoother), was not something i was prepared to do; given the minimal gains i would experience (but NOT in the wallet!).

I had initially had planned on an OSW with the Heusinkveld Pro set, along with a SimLabs rig (and a few extra bits n' bobs)....however...Not purchasing these has now put me in a position where i feel i have made a huge mistake!
The main reason is is that from a 'feel' standpoint and immersion, the TMTX and is just not what i expected; looking at it from a financial point of view i should have purchased what i'd originally intended.
You only have to look on eBay at the amount of 'mid-range' wheels up for auction/sale, both new and in used condition...that's enough to tell anyone where the market is headed!.

However, i've had the TMTX and TH8A for a while now and although it has served it's purpose and has given me the step up into the sim racing world, i feel it's time to begin looking at the direct drive market.
I'm not entirely sure what i will end up with, but i do know that the DD wheel will be probably the last base i'll ever need!.

Right...to my main point...

What unfortunately aggravates the most is wheel users babbling on about is "the incredible amount of force you a DD wheel has!"...which in actual fact is complete and utter balony!
From my research, viewing many videos of actual real racing drivers of all disciplines using a direct drive wheel and giving their feedback (pardon the pun!), they seem to all come to the same conclusions...
A direct drive wheel which can put out a ridiculously large amount of NM is not in reality required.

I recall watching a video in which a current GT3 racing driver (real) had spent a good while on a DD wheel; i believe it was the OSW and a couple of hours later, his setup in comparison with his real life car and track combination had only equated to around 6nm at most (primarily at speed with the car under load).

So with that said, users boasting about their DD wheel having 20/30 nm and "my base is better than your base because i have more nm!", is both childish and more to the point... redundant!.

Admittedly speaking though, before the power steering era, the cars were harder and more strenuous to drive due to that fact, and is very plausible that the forces produced were possibly up to the 10nm mark; but those cars in the sim world are not that accurately produced (feedback wise), so the response would be to just increase the nm on the base...and that's fine.

My point is, having a large amount of nm in a DD wheel/base is just not either practical nor required; In fact, given the fact of the GT3 drivers' conclusive results, i'd say that 6-8nm is completely sufficient...but that's my opinion.

Anyway, i've babbled on for too long but in essence, i wish that users of DD bases/wheels that have a large amount of nm would just refrain from mentioning the fact; It's just their male pre-occupation with power and size that does the talking, rather than researching the real facts!
(BTW - Not a feminist).

THX!

 

[Case_]

You only have to look on eBay at the amount of 'mid-range' wheels up for auction/sale, both new and in used condition...that's enough to tell anyone where the market is headed!

I'd just like to point out that this is a very good example of confirmation bias. You are just trying to find validation of your own opinions based on data that doesn't really validate it.

The sheer amount of cheaper wheels on sale on Ebay is not really indicative of where the market is headed. A part of that market certainly is heading that way, but I would expect that it is still a fairly small part of said market, DD wheels are still way too expensive for most people who want a reasonably priced wheel, even if the main RD audience, the wealthy middle-aged simracer with equipment worth thousands of dollars, might not think they are.

It is simply indicative...of the sheer amount of cheaper wheels owned by people. Nothing more. There's a lot of cheaper wheels out there, so there's a lot of cheaper wheels sold on Ebay. It doesn't mean everyone selling a cheaper wheel on Ebay is selling it because it was replaced with a DD wheel.

 

[PAWANH]

I'd just like to point out that this is a very good example of confirmation bias. You are just trying to find validation of your own opinions based on data that doesn't really validate it.

The sheer amount of cheaper wheels on sale on Ebay is not really indicative of where the market is headed. A part of that market certainly is heading that way, but I would expect that it is still a fairly small part of said market, DD wheels are still way too expensive for most people who want a reasonably priced wheel, even if the main RD audience, the wealthy middle-aged simracer with equipment worth thousands of dollars, might not think they are.

It is simply indicative...of the sheer amount of cheaper wheels owned by people. Nothing more. There's a lot of cheaper wheels out there, so there's a lot of cheaper wheels sold on Ebay. It doesn't mean everyone selling a cheaper wheel on Ebay is selling it because it was replaced with a DD wheel.

I absolutely agree.

Obviously, there will be many many individuals whom are/will continue to use wheels/bases in the 'mid-range' market (and may i add that isn't a bad thing - i'm still using one); and i will agree that DD bases/wheels are very expensive, but in time as their popularity and/or manufacturing costs reduce, it's only a matter of time before DD wheels will be both the most immersive AND cost effective solution.

Believe me, i have been a 'sim racer' for many years; well...since the beginning of real simulation titles from those of Geoff Crammond, and even after many years of using a gamepad/controller, it was only until last year that i decided to move on.
So, even though i'm still using the TMTX and other associated hardware, i just feel (even in that short space of time), that my skills now require a more advanced piece of equipment for me to attain the immersion i so require.
The TMTX, like any belt driven wheel, will always have limitations and with that said, i have to be honest and say that i just do not like the feel of the 'notchiness' being produced BECAUSE it's a belt driven wheel.
My goal was to enter the sim racing genre with a package that i'd feel both financially acceptable and user friendly, and the TMTX does indeed provide that.

All i regret is that, due to short amount of time of getting used to a wheel package and migrating my skills from a gamepad to a wheel, i just feel that from a financial standpoint, i actually should've purchased what i initially had intended. However, at that time and had never used a wheel at all, i thought it was the best solution.

All i am stating is, i'm just talking from a personal perspective and is in no way aimed to annoy or either discourage anyone from using what they feel both comfortable and financially accepting.
Of course they'll be belt or gear driven wheels for many years to come, but as i said, to those users whom have passed the stage of using traditional belt driven products, the direct drive market is the only solution to gaining what all us sim racers desire....the ability to reproduce (artificially) the feeling of something that otherwise they cannot do in the real world, i.e. racing in real motorsport.

Again, everyone has their own opinions and thoughts; I just wanted to point out that owning a DD wheel with a ridiculous amount of NM isn't neither practical or in reality...required.

 

[BrunoBæ]

1. "Real-life" FFB is basically torque-based, not position and/or velocity based like game-FFB.
2. "Real-life" FFB is a reactive (ie. passive) system, not an active system like game-FFB.
3. Microsoft Direct Input (limitations aside from previous 2 points).

I think you have something here.
And also with your following "telemetry-based filter" comments.
But something that will probably not be discussed much - because it is so fundamental and probably with so radical implications that it questions the FFB effects as they are produced now.

Back in 2011 Bodnar produced an article about this fundamental issue "Why FFB in Simulations Does Not Work" - but seen in the rear mirror this article didnt cause any change in the way FFB effects are produced (SW/HW-wise) in racing sims.
And Bodnars DD wheels are high end but are not fundamentally different from other DD wheels in the way they produce the FFB effects.

CatsAreTheWorstDogs: The way DD wheels produce the FFB effects are again not fundamentally different from the way non DD wheels produce the effects - so...

 

[Xenozoid]

get a car and race,ffb will always be a simulation,may be one day it will be possible to simulate death who knows,at this moment the only simulation brought to the game world is money....think about it,that is all you need to buy a rig that simulate better,and all those gizmos, you'll bee racing all over the world without having a private jet,and living in monaco or switzerland,
i guess they will sell us fun with dlc and drm all the same....long live simulation

 

[Deleted member 955978]

WARNING LONG (BUT NOTE WORTHY) POST!.

With this FFB topic getting more attention than ever with the introduction of the DD wheels, i feel i have to at least give a little of my perspective on this...

A few months ago, i decided to start into the world of 'real' sim racing; in that i mean purchasing an actual wheel & pedals. Now, obviously as this was my first step, i didn't want (or need) to purchase a set that wouldn't cost a significant amount but just enough to give me a taste as to what sim racing with a wheel is all about!.

I eventually decided to go with a Thrustmaster TX Leather Edition/ T3PA Pro pedals and the TH8A shifter.
To most, they would've most likely have advised that i go for the Fanatec kit and while that may be true, spending an increased amount of money on something which effectively produces the same results (albeit a tad smoother), was not something i was prepared to do; given the minimal gains i would experience (but NOT in the wallet!).

I had initially had planned on an OSW with the Heusinkveld Pro set, along with a SimLabs rig (and a few extra bits n' bobs)....however...Not purchasing these has now put me in a position where i feel i have made a huge mistake!
The main reason is is that from a 'feel' standpoint and immersion, the TMTX and is just not what i expected; looking at it from a financial point of view i should have purchased what i'd originally intended.
You only have to look on eBay at the amount of 'mid-range' wheels up for auction/sale, both new and in used condition...that's enough to tell anyone where the market is headed!.

However, i've had the TMTX and TH8A for a while now and although it has served it's purpose and has given me the step up into the sim racing world, i feel it's time to begin looking at the direct drive market.
I'm not entirely sure what i will end up with, but i do know that the DD wheel will be probably the last base i'll ever need!.

Right...to my main point...

What unfortunately aggravates the most is wheel users babbling on about is "the incredible amount of force you a DD wheel has!"...which in actual fact is complete and utter balony!
From my research, viewing many videos of actual real racing drivers of all disciplines using a direct drive wheel and giving their feedback (pardon the pun!), they seem to all come to the same conclusions...
A direct drive wheel which can put out a ridiculously large amount of NM is not in reality required.

I recall watching a video in which a current GT3 racing driver (real) had spent a good while on a DD wheel; i believe it was the OSW and a couple of hours later, his setup in comparison with his real life car and track combination had only equated to around 6nm at most (primarily at speed with the car under load).

So with that said, users boasting about their DD wheel having 20/30 nm and "my base is better than your base because i have more nm!", is both childish and more to the point... redundant!.

Admittedly speaking though, before the power steering era, the cars were harder and more strenuous to drive due to that fact, and is very plausible that the forces produced were possibly up to the 10nm mark; but those cars in the sim world are not that accurately produced (feedback wise), so the response would be to just increase the nm on the base...and that's fine.

My point is, having a large amount of nm in a DD wheel/base is just not either practical nor required; In fact, given the fact of the GT3 drivers' conclusive results, i'd say that 6-8nm is completely sufficient...but that's my opinion.

Anyway, i've babbled on for too long but in essence, i wish that users of DD bases/wheels that have a large amount of nm would just refrain from mentioning the fact; It's just their male pre-occupation with power and size that does the talking, rather than researching the real facts!
(BTW - Not a feminist).

THX!

So this might be enough?

https://sim-pli.city/products/sw7c-7nm-direct-drive-wheel

what do you think guys and gals?

 

[CrimsonEminence]

what do you think guys and gals?

I think, it peaks at 7 Nm...as far as i remember...

So if you want to have some headroom on a DD wheel, you could probably run into some restrictions here, especially with things like Indycars or heavy downforce in fast corners, but i could be mistaken...

Also the software of this wheel seems to make problems with some games.

 

[Cote Dazur]

@numbersevenhull thank you for this link to such enlightening information. It is unfortunate that most of it fall in death ear as per the answers in most post, but not surprising.
Trough the years driving different sim with a FFB wheel, if paying attention, a SIM driver comes to the conclusion that a wheel is not an exercise machine and can only feed back so much. No one need a 1000$ dollar device with mega torque to get most of what FFB has to communicate.
so many misguided comments on this or that FFB is soooo much better because it is overly busy, totally confusing and nothing like we ever feel driving a real car, or about that wheel that will rip your arm off sign that it is a superior product, would be amusing if it was not a little sad.
This short video clearly state what FFB communicate, this is refreshing and hopefully will help elevate some conversation about FFB in general and as it relates to a particular SIM physic.
To me, for a while now, less is more when pertaining to force feedback, as in less saturation, and less wheel agitation, just what is supposed to be felt in a wheel, it makes the wheel feeling more like a wheel in a real car, so to me, better immersion.
Yes we are missing information when driving a SIM, and in a foreseeable future it will stay that way, but cramming as much as possible in the wheel movements is not a good solution. VR will help get you there with visual clues and tactile feedback will give you suspension feedback, I guess motion can also help, but I have no experience with it, even though it is high on my list of thing to do to get better SIM immersion. Way ahead of upgrading my perfectly adequate sim driving wheel.
The sooner those superstition about what FFB can and cannot do will be cleared from SIM driver mind, the sooner we can address the real limitations of simulating racing car in the comfort of our home.

 

[CrimsonEminence]

To me, for a while now, less is more when pertaining to force feedback, as in less saturation, and less wheel agitation, just what is supposed to be felt in a wheel, it makes the wheel feeling more like a wheel in a real car, so to me, better immersion.

I thought, this was already common knowledge?

 

[Cote Dazur]

I thought, this was already common knowledge?

If you mean common knowledge as in known by everyone or nearly everyone, usually with reference to the community in which the term is used. Then, I would suggest reading the thread, as a lot is about having overwhelming force and adding extra additional information to the FFB, so maybe not not so common in this community. I agree it should be, I am not pretending breaking any new ground, just stating where I stand. I you wish that it should be common knowledge, then we agree, as so do I.

 

[RobertR1]

The whole thing is fake anyway. If canned effects or other tweaked settings make you more confident in your input into the car, then go for it.

Just like people have different styles and different sensitivy to feedback in real driving, preferences between FFB wil also vary.

do what works for you. There will always be plenty of people on the internet to argue with.

 

[super_gt]

Am I the only one who thinks there is a resemblance between Niels Heusinkveld and Rowan Atkinson.
for example:

and

This post is not meant to offend anyone!

 

[Spinelli]

I think you have something here.
And also with your following "telemetry-based filter" comments.
But something that will probably not be discussed much - because it is so fundamental and probably with so radical implications that it questions the FFB effects as they are produced now.

Back in 2011 Bodnar produced an article about this fundamental issue "Why FFB in Simulations Does Not Work" - but seen in the rear mirror this article didnt cause any change in the way FFB effects are produced (SW/HW-wise) in racing sims.
And Bodnars DD wheels are high end but are not fundamentally different from other DD wheels in the way they produce the FFB effects.

CatsAreTheWorstDogs: The way DD wheels produce the FFB effects are again not fundamentally different from the way non DD wheels produce the effects - so...

You got it, Bruno. Every word you said