So you think you know about force feedback?

[BrunoBæ]

Pretty informative and above all intelligible/graspable video.
Thank you.
CatsAreTheWorstDogs: Maybe I should begin using my FFB wheel instead of the non-FFB wheel(SRW-S1) I have been using for years. Allways felt that the FFB effects feels pretty artificial.

 

[protonv5]

-removed-

 

[KittX]

pff. Thought you're better than that.

 

[Richard Wilks]

Simply not true. I know where my front tires are at maximum grip and when they start to lose that grip. So does a racecar driver. He knows exactly where the limit is. It's why he's being paid so much to drive the car.

Yes, he KNOWS where that is, but it is NOT through a change in resistance from the steering. See the video again.

 

[protonv5]

pff. Thought you're better than that.

Yeah. But don't give a **** anymore. I hang with people that are honest and people I consider friends. Sim racers apparently are less and less in the at group. It's just the way it is. Hate to say it, but...

 

[KittX]

Yeah. But don't give a **** anymore. I hang with people that are honest and people I consider friends. Sim racers apparently are less and less in the at group. It's just the way it is. Hate to say it, but...

so everyone who disagrees or find your opinion funny or amusing in their eyes, is automatically loser and dishonest? The whole attitude like that is you are not allowing any honesty to happen, apart from what you would like to hear.

 

[protonv5]

so everyone who disagrees or find your opinion funny or amusing in their eyes, is automatically loser and dishonest? The whole attitude like that is you are not allowing any honesty to happen, apart from what you would like to hear.

Thanks for your concern, but it's not about that. I mean you know when someone you meet in the pub is a real prick, right? If they mouth off to you and get into it with you, you let them know. Hey asshole? What's your problem? That's what I find more and more of the crowd here acting like. Sure there are many great guys and gals here. But more and more unfortunately serve no purpose other than to spout nonsense and be degrading and insulting. So, I give it back. But since this such a 'safe-place' world, we're not allowed to do that. Whatever. In the end, who needs the hassle? It's just a video game after all.

 

[randomcallsign]

It's FFB, not a philosophical statement about the meaning of life the universe and everything. Some people get it right, some less right.
I'm glad Niels took time to explain it

 

[Brandon Wright]

so everyone who disagrees or find your opinion funny or amusing in their eyes, is automatically loser and dishonest? The whole attitude like that is you are not allowing any honesty to happen, apart from what you would like to hear.

Welcome to the new world where everyone's opinion is right and anyone who disagrees is stupid and evil.

 

[protonv5]

It's FFB, not a philosophical statement about the meaning of life the universe and everything. Some people get it right, some less right.
I'm glad Niels took it's time to explain it

Me too. Tell that to BrunoB. He got a laugh out of it. So I think he thought it was stand up comedy

 

[protonv5]

Welcome to the new world where everyone's opinion is right and anyone who disagrees is stupid and evil.

Ahh, and now we've got Brandon in on it. You don't happen to know BrunoB do you? Surely you guys must hang out.

 

[protonv5]

Anyway, I think we're done here. This whole sim racing crowd is really not for me. So cheers. Just bought the new GT3RS and will spend a lot of time driving it and doing some track days etc. Perhaps get away from sim racing for a while. Cheers

 

[Koen Verlinde]

More likely it makes you noober.

Quite the contrary, but I only talk from my personal perspective.

 

[RasmusP]

Who's Bruno? Can't see it... Oh, he's on my ignore list!
Just like proton might be if he continues this rage...

Proton, I know where it comes from, I feel the same way too often but raging on this forum won't make you feel better.
The ignore list golden! Just put guys that make you rage on it and you'll see that 99% of this forum is still nice

 

[KittX]

Thanks for your concern, but it's not about that. I mean you know when someone you meet in the pub is a real prick, right? If they mouth off to you and get into it with you, you let them know. Hey asshole? What's your problem? That's what I find more and more of the crowd here acting like. Sure there are many great guys and gals here. But more and more unfortunately serve no purpose other than to spout nonsense and be degrading and insulting. So, I give it back. But since this such a 'safe-place' world, we're not allowed to do that. Whatever. In the end, who needs the hassle?

yup, i see where you're coming from, but imo the least things we need are the safe-spaces where everyone praises just one opinion. Being politely disagreed and finding the way through it while sticking to your paradigm (or even better actually listening to your "opponent" and fully understanding his point, realizing that you both agree on many smaller points inside one big point, and working your way from there, for the future that is better for both of you) - is something we're losing nowadays in this nu-authoritary era with safe spaces, tighter borders, and other self-defending stuff. It leads to stagnation inside groups, and big conflicts between groups. And to huge problems to those people who have new ideas but happened to be forced territorially or in some other way, inside group with stagnated ideas. Might be that instant gratification that we're getting used to now, with all the one-click apps and evreything super available instantly, is naurally leading us into that authoritary, narcissistic, safe-space mentality. But it's a trap really.
As for trolls, well let them just do their thing unless it's not a physical treat. Someone laughs at your opinion - if you just keep that unnoticed, or have a distant friendly laugh back, works just way way better, than any negative reacting, or even worse calling names.

 

[mantasisg]

I am not sure what he's talking about here. I must completely disagree. I feel understeer all day long in my road car when pushing through corners and over-doing it and I know what it feels like. To say you don't feel it in real life? What?

Your car most likely has small amount of caster, or mechanical trail. In that case you should feel drop of self aligning torque, because pneumatic trail is significant.... It is not a new thing, and it was demonstrated in the video perfectly well, so it is a bit weird how someone is arguing with you and using video as an argument when in fact Niels told that there indeed is an effect which results in drop of SAT with increased slip... simracers...

I am also stupid to repeat this stuff since 2017 lol, no one reads my posts anyways, let alone taking them seriously.

 

[RCHeliguy]

We do like to bicker about things don't we

It's interesting how an informative post still allows us to find friction points with each other.

Sim racing software will continue improve and with it the physics, FFB and tactile, motion effects, video, audio etc.. It's just going to keep getting better.

However, I'm past the point of wanting for anything better. I'll just enjoy the improvements as they come. I'll be excited by new things as they arrive, but I'm good right now. I have plenty to keep me busy now that I'm actually focusing on learning how to improve my driving. This will take me years, but I can see improvement now, so lots of fun to come!

Do I know what I'm feeling through my wheel? Not really, but it feels pretty good.

Sooooo... I guess now I need to fling some feces at someone. Duck!

 

[Richard Wilks]

Your car most likely has small amount of caster, or mechanical trail. In that case you should feel drop of self aligning torque, because pneumatic trail is significant.... It is not a new thing, and it was demonstrated in the video perfectly well, so it is a bit weird how someone is arguing with you and using video as an argument when in fact Niels told that there indeed is an effect which results in drop of SAT with increased slip... simracers...

I am also stupid to repeat this stuff since 2017 lol, no one reads my posts anyways, let alone taking them seriously.

Did you even saw the video? Caster loses its "force" when the rear comes out, basically aligning the car again. Did you miss the part where he showed that if you have tire forces alone, the maximum grip is way BEYOND the point where the wheel actually loses ALL its resistance?...

 

[mantasisg]

Did you even saw the video? Caster loses its "force" when the rear comes out, basically aligning the car again. Did you miss the part where he showed that if you have tire forces alone, the maximum grip is way BEYOND the point where the wheel actually loses ALL its resistance?...

Well I was probably one of the first guys who noticed this upload by Niels. And sure, I watched it. First of all I want to ask you where did oversteer suddenly come from, because we were specifically talking about SAT drop during understeer.

Also, second thing, caster doesn't hold any force, it is mechanical leverage. To be more accurate the mechanical trail is leverage, that is resulted by caster angle.

Third I am way aware that self aligning torque peaks earlier before slip curve does, and I knew it before, but it was awesome to learn from Niels the reason for that. Though he didn't explain the reason why pneumatic trail shrinks, or did he ? But I know the reason anyway let me flex about it

I'll try to explain you again about understeer. There are two types of leverage - mechanical and pneumatic. Mechanical trail depends on geometry. Pneumatic trail depends on load and slip, and with slip it gets smaller, till it goes. If there is very little of mechanical trail, then the decrease of pneumatic trail decrease will be very noticeable as understeer happens, because the drop of SAT will be more noticeable as there won't be much permanent leverage that stays the whole time. it is so simple, please.

Do I know what I'm feeling through my wheel? Not really, but it feels pretty good.

If you'd watch the vid with great attention a couple of times you would mostly know And this is not the case when the knowing less is better.

 

[TrumpetReich]

The problem is understeer doesn't really feel like sudden lack of lateral pull on the wheel like many people misinterpret it - very often understeer feels like the whole front end of car starts bouncing and producing very distinctive sounds. I haven't felt/heard it in any game yet tbh. Problem with bouncing that it shouldn't be lateral too, it should be more like those extra vibrating thingys on T-GT wheel.

Example can be found here at 8:04:

nice catch