I'm little bit extreme with that time spent. Most of it is due to rSeat N1 choice I made in the beginning
On 8020 rig it would take fraction of the time, but even with that rig it's still lot of effort.
SimXperience GS-5 Seat
- Thread starter HugoB
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- gs-5 gs/5 seat simxperience
I'm little bit extreme with that time spent. Most of it is due to rSeat N1 choice I made in the beginning
On 8020 rig it would take fraction of the time, but even with that rig it's still lot of effort.
Mr Latte
Premium
We do not have an agreement in what is possible for combined immersion, yet nobody is willing it seems to attempt to put these differences in theories or opinions aside and begin to discover the potential possibilities and overcome issues.
Doing this based on testing, research and getting stuck in, not just opinions or preconceptions of what is the limits or potential.
Doing this based on testing, research and getting stuck in, not just opinions or preconceptions of what is the limits or potential.
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Honestly, I think most are with you. I don't think anyone has said the SFX can do it all, I don't know anyone that had tactile and didnt keep it with their SFX, although I have read that they have not tried to use it as much and used it to concentrate on a few specific things.
I know tactile is staying on my SFX, no doubt it complements it. Early on in the SFX thread it was brought up and I think the proof is in the pudding that I have not read anyone throw away any tactile that they had. They probably dont use it for as many effects as they used to..
I think that the graph posted a few posts back shows nicely how different technologies fit in with what they can replicate and tactile transducers clearly fit the bill nicely.
The only time I have seen any discussion with disagreement is when it's mentioned that with nothing short of the most expensive transducers can you start to try and simulate a feeling of g force and heave. Thats when arms go up in the air and say why? I have real heave, I have the real feel on my back of G. Why would I spend an equal amount of money trying to simulate something that I have another tech that actually does it? Thats where the debate is IMO.
I know tactile is staying on my SFX, no doubt it complements it. Early on in the SFX thread it was brought up and I think the proof is in the pudding that I have not read anyone throw away any tactile that they had. They probably dont use it for as many effects as they used to..
I think that the graph posted a few posts back shows nicely how different technologies fit in with what they can replicate and tactile transducers clearly fit the bill nicely.
The only time I have seen any discussion with disagreement is when it's mentioned that with nothing short of the most expensive transducers can you start to try and simulate a feeling of g force and heave. Thats when arms go up in the air and say why? I have real heave, I have the real feel on my back of G. Why would I spend an equal amount of money trying to simulate something that I have another tech that actually does it? Thats where the debate is IMO.
why do you need vibration freq >20 Hz?
I did spectrum analysis on SimVibe and did find high freq modes. I have no idea why/how he make up these modes. I just have no base to understand on this. I did look into both vertical g and spatial (ride height) rF2 telemetry, the freq are way below 10 Hz. To me “vertical realism” feel cannot be realized by using high freq BK,,,,
The highest freq from road texture and micro bumps is near 5 Hz.
I'll say this, that the SFX-100 is much like a DD wheel in the way you don't really get vibrations the way traditional tactile is thought of. It's like the CSW having a vibrating motor in the rims that give you that engine vibe feel, or rumble strip or whatever you use it for. The direct drive wheel actually moves fast and powerful enough to give off those sensations under it's normal working load as a steering wheel.
So the actuators might not do much for things such as hz tests but under motion, in full movement, the power and speed of the motors are fully capable of giving massive rumble strip effect, especially on the saw tooth type and also huge bumps when hitting sausages and larger items.
I've no intention of using the actuators for things like engine vibes and perhaps even traction loss, although I am yet to delve into even someone else's custom profile let alone start learning the software and creating my own.
So the actuators might not do much for things such as hz tests but under motion, in full movement, the power and speed of the motors are fully capable of giving massive rumble strip effect, especially on the saw tooth type and also huge bumps when hitting sausages and larger items.
I've no intention of using the actuators for things like engine vibes and perhaps even traction loss, although I am yet to delve into even someone else's custom profile let alone start learning the software and creating my own.
Mr Latte
Premium
What took you so long?????
Blame Henk this time, I just wanted/asked a guy to do some tests.
Fact of the matter is, from what I see, we still haven't had someone combine the high-end tactile gear with the advanced motion options for the best of both or attempt to make such a successful combo.
However, I don't need to get smarmy or rude with folk to have an interest in its potential and I think it's huge in what could be accomplished.
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Don't blame me for anything, i just asked a simple question out of pure interest how it should be possible to replicate G-Forces using tactile.
And that question on itself does have to do with the main topic. I really really love my GS-4 and i just can't imagine how on earth you can replicate the panel pushing your body during an entire corner using something that vibrates.
Thats all, end of tactile discussing let's keep the topic about the GS-5 instead
Mr Latte
Premium
I have removed all my main comments, thread cleaned on my part....
Does acceleration in G Force for Longitudinal & Lateral G cause vibration?
Will a car/cockpit shake when under increasing "G" loads, Henk?
It's not necessarily about the tactile adding physical pressure on the body, its about it giving representation to heavy vibration loads, the car and the driver may sustain from such forces.
Does acceleration in G Force for Longitudinal & Lateral G cause vibration?
Will a car/cockpit shake when under increasing "G" loads, Henk?
It's not necessarily about the tactile adding physical pressure on the body, its about it giving representation to heavy vibration loads, the car and the driver may sustain from such forces.
This, I think has some merit. It's how I interpret the use of tactile when assuming the role of representing G force. But as has been said, let's keep this about the GS-5. In saying that, tactile does share the ability with the G seat to give sustained energy, whether it be through prodding with a paddle or the continuous generation of energy through the tactile units. This differs from a motion platform, which specialises in motion cues and changes of direction.
In the case of the Virtual GT freq >20 Hz and the Graph is done with custom designed silica, amplifiers, shakers and speakers. Proprietary to that company. We plan on using SIMVIBE as well to test what works better and have added Motion using SFX and the GS-5 seat to expand on the immersion.
I have removed all my main comments, thread cleaned on my part....
Does acceleration in G Force for Longitudinal & Lateral G cause vibration?
Will a car/cockpit shake when under increasing "G" loads, Henk?
It's not necessarily about the tactile adding physical pressure on the body, its about it giving representation to heavy vibration loads, the car and the driver may sustain from such forces.
Using all of the bass shakers is great for suspension, road texture, wheel slip but unfortunately no matter how much they shake of vibrate, they can't even come close to the feeling of g forces that the GS5 can produce. The pressure from the seat is needed to really convince you that you are accelerating, braking, corning. I could take off the bass shakers and loose some part of the simulation but now that I have the GS5, just like my GS4, it is a VERY important upgrade that can't be replicated. Hope this helps everyone on the fence about whether it's worth it. If you have the money and want an authentic feel of being in a car then look no further then the seat
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Mr Latte
Premium
The perspective being taken is possible that people think, I am trying to have tactile produce body pressure/force to compete with or compare with that of what a moving panel applies into body regions like GS4 / GS5. Or that somehow I am deluded in believing tactile can do everything, what else, oh that I disregard the energy potential from motion or motor based vibrations can also be more powerful.
- I have very limited experience with motion sims.
- I dont attempt to be an expert on the subject.
- I dont believe I am right on everything neither.
- I respect the talent and experience several on these forums have.
What I dont know and as owners, please, can you clarify....
If a GS4/GS5 user has no tactile whatsoever, and no other motion, tell me what vibration can be controlled via its settings or that it generates when it applies the forces? Hold on, I don't doubt the power that it may have in the pressure it applies to the body or it not being effective.
What I query here, is what "vibration stimulation" it brings with the applied pressure with operational "G Force" effects.
Rightly Or Wrongly
What I have experimented with, is find tactile based effects that yes can indeed be powerful but these are vibrations, to indeed represent and simulate the "vibrations" such energy from "G-Forces" may bring to a cockpit and its driver/pilot as these are very real factors in such a scenario. My own experimenting with tactile is for the purpose of doing what tactile does well, represent detailed vibrations. I am not trying to use tactile to represent "body pressure".
With Lateral G I can feel my earlobes vibrating or even headphones moving if I crank the volume, such is the low vibration energy going through my "whole body" with the vibration stimulation it achieves.
I cannot just writeoff the power and sensation I can obtain, from the effects I have experimented with, well at least with my own hardware. I do find them adding to the immersion, others may not. That's, just something Mr Latte does, in seeking to pursue more from what "tactile" can offer. It does not mean that I think tactile can represent everything or that I think it can replace motion, no, not at all......
So I can assure people these are not worthless sensations or fantasies bringing nothing to the immersion. The question I raise, time and time again and nobody it seems wants to do a "cival" thread for such discussion is how we can combine the best of motion with the best of tactile successfully.
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Do you mean tactile in general is good for suspension, road texture etc., or you mean you still use tactile for these effects in addition to D-Box? Many SFX100 users said it's not needed to use tactile with this kind of motion and that it is maybe also counterproductive.
@Mr Latte I think you know that the GS5 doesnt vibrate but that's still not the point. I can't say that I remember either here or over at iracing that people with a gseat dont have tactile.. It's pretty well established with people that have nice rigs.
So all these guys have tactile for some effect or another but I dont know who you are going to convince to go and spend a small fortune to make their earlobes vibrate in unison with their G seat?
So I understand that you are not saying this will compete with moving panels for the feeling of G but I am quite underwhelmed that when you said something along the lines of 'you will need the largest of transducers to create these G effects' that we were only talking about vibrating ears.
So all these guys have tactile for some effect or another but I dont know who you are going to convince to go and spend a small fortune to make their earlobes vibrate in unison with their G seat?
So I understand that you are not saying this will compete with moving panels for the feeling of G but I am quite underwhelmed that when you said something along the lines of 'you will need the largest of transducers to create these G effects' that we were only talking about vibrating ears.
I'd love to purchase a G-seat to add g forces to my SFX100 rig, (and congrats to those that have), but I'm just not willing to pay that price. If I could add a tactile setup at the $1000 or less price point to give me engine rev's, and some "brain tricking" sensation of G force, as well as any other force the SFX100 may not be well suited for, then I'm all in.
I have to admit I confused why some many here seem "violently" opposed to tactile? I don't think anyone has said that it's better than, or a perfect substitute for motion, or gseats have they? Why couldn't it be used to supplement overall immersion, and fill in the gaps? I agree few will want to spent an additional 3K + for a tactile setup, but surely many like me would do $1000 or so? Most will need it for engine rev's right? So why not see what else it could help out with? I believe it would be most useful to the greatest number of people to find out how a $1000 tactile setup can benefit SFX100 users, especially those without a GS-4/5.
Also, won't using the SFX actuators for all the higher freq vibrations wear then out rather quickly?
I have to admit I confused why some many here seem "violently" opposed to tactile? I don't think anyone has said that it's better than, or a perfect substitute for motion, or gseats have they? Why couldn't it be used to supplement overall immersion, and fill in the gaps? I agree few will want to spent an additional 3K + for a tactile setup, but surely many like me would do $1000 or so? Most will need it for engine rev's right? So why not see what else it could help out with? I believe it would be most useful to the greatest number of people to find out how a $1000 tactile setup can benefit SFX100 users, especially those without a GS-4/5.
Also, won't using the SFX actuators for all the higher freq vibrations wear then out rather quickly?
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I don't think its a question of opposition, more opinion on what effects one believes provides the most immersion or translation of Car sensations in a racing simulator. I think everyone would agree each has its merits. Back to the GS-5 more of a question as we await delivery...Does anyone know how much power the seats will draw? how many USB connections etc?
saxxon66
Micha
Racing Simulator and different types of Effects
Looking at most Racing Simulators we can see the common types of gear.
Headphones and speakers, tactile transducers (bass shaker), electric motors of all kinds (RC-Servos, DC Motors, AC Motors, Worm Gears, …), ... and of course Racing wheels and Pedals.
I am going to put theses into groups, because every element has its part in game.
· Sound (20 - 20.000 hz)
· Vibrations (5 - 120 hz)
· Movements (<1 - 10 hz)
Mixing them together for the most immersive experience is the end goal.
Sound (20 – 20,000 hz)
Sound is one of the most important parts, if not the most important part. It will bring you the sensation of speed, wind, tires, motor sounds and chassis movement, … all at the same time. So a decent pair of headphones or a surround speaker set is always a good investment.
Vibrations (5 – 120 hz)
Higher rate vibrations are a part of the sound experience and the lower fill the gap to the movement part. For the faster rates (20 – 120 hz) you can hear and sometimes feel it. The lower parts can only be felt by your body and bones. Like an earth quake, big machines or, in our example, a race car.
It can be used to simulate motor noise and vibrations, rattling motion like from the drive shaft, road textures what will give different sensation for different surfaces, rumble strips, tire grip, …
Movements (<1 – 10 hz)
There are different types of movements. I call them “Force” and “Jerk” effects.
Force
Force effects (using the gravity, or pushing forces) will bring you in a position so your body will feel the gravity forces i. e. by tilting you to the sides to simulate cornering G-Forces, pushing you against your steering wheel so you can feel the force like under breaking or pads that press against your body to simulate lateral forces.
It can perfectly simulate the torque coming from a steering wheel and the position of the car in the world, like going uphill, downhill, banking but without the acceleration part.
Jerk
Jerk (rate of change) effects are used to simulate G-Forces (acceleration) in all directions, but only for a very small amount of time. We cannot simulate G-Forces over a longer period, because we will quickly run out of motor speed and the travel distance our simulator is capable of.
The most prominent Jerk effect simulates the vertical G-Forces and is called heave.
For each type of effect there is an efficient gear to produce them.
Sound, that’s obvious, a speaker or headphone is the right choice.
Motors or shaker can produce sound also, but they are very limited in fidelity and range.
Vibrations, can be produced by speakers, motors, … but tactile transducers are the best for a simulator. They can be fine controlled and can produce substantial amount of vibrations.
Movements can be produced by different kind of motors using different types of mechanic.
We know RC-Servos, DC Motors, AC Motors, open loop and close loop setups, …
All of these have their pros and cons, so it depends on the type of motion which one is best.
Talking G-Seat
I am interested in which and how the forces can be simulated in a G-Seat and how they feel.
Lateral
I think it can simulate lateral forces very well.
But is it the best way to use these types of plates to simulate that?
Should the pressure not come more from the sides of the seat?
Or maybe more on your outer shoulders?
Longitudinal
Blades push you on acceleration but does this work for deceleration too, like under braking?
Vertical
Will your whole body lifted up or is is more a kind of pressure you can feel?
And does it apply more on the sides of your legs?
Looking at most Racing Simulators we can see the common types of gear.
Headphones and speakers, tactile transducers (bass shaker), electric motors of all kinds (RC-Servos, DC Motors, AC Motors, Worm Gears, …), ... and of course Racing wheels and Pedals.
I am going to put theses into groups, because every element has its part in game.
· Sound (20 - 20.000 hz)
· Vibrations (5 - 120 hz)
· Movements (<1 - 10 hz)
Mixing them together for the most immersive experience is the end goal.
Sound (20 – 20,000 hz)
Sound is one of the most important parts, if not the most important part. It will bring you the sensation of speed, wind, tires, motor sounds and chassis movement, … all at the same time. So a decent pair of headphones or a surround speaker set is always a good investment.
Vibrations (5 – 120 hz)
Higher rate vibrations are a part of the sound experience and the lower fill the gap to the movement part. For the faster rates (20 – 120 hz) you can hear and sometimes feel it. The lower parts can only be felt by your body and bones. Like an earth quake, big machines or, in our example, a race car.
It can be used to simulate motor noise and vibrations, rattling motion like from the drive shaft, road textures what will give different sensation for different surfaces, rumble strips, tire grip, …
Movements (<1 – 10 hz)
There are different types of movements. I call them “Force” and “Jerk” effects.
Force
Force effects (using the gravity, or pushing forces) will bring you in a position so your body will feel the gravity forces i. e. by tilting you to the sides to simulate cornering G-Forces, pushing you against your steering wheel so you can feel the force like under breaking or pads that press against your body to simulate lateral forces.
It can perfectly simulate the torque coming from a steering wheel and the position of the car in the world, like going uphill, downhill, banking but without the acceleration part.
Jerk
Jerk (rate of change) effects are used to simulate G-Forces (acceleration) in all directions, but only for a very small amount of time. We cannot simulate G-Forces over a longer period, because we will quickly run out of motor speed and the travel distance our simulator is capable of.
The most prominent Jerk effect simulates the vertical G-Forces and is called heave.
For each type of effect there is an efficient gear to produce them.
Sound, that’s obvious, a speaker or headphone is the right choice.
Motors or shaker can produce sound also, but they are very limited in fidelity and range.
Vibrations, can be produced by speakers, motors, … but tactile transducers are the best for a simulator. They can be fine controlled and can produce substantial amount of vibrations.
Movements can be produced by different kind of motors using different types of mechanic.
We know RC-Servos, DC Motors, AC Motors, open loop and close loop setups, …
All of these have their pros and cons, so it depends on the type of motion which one is best.
Talking G-Seat
I am interested in which and how the forces can be simulated in a G-Seat and how they feel.
Lateral
I think it can simulate lateral forces very well.
But is it the best way to use these types of plates to simulate that?
Should the pressure not come more from the sides of the seat?
Or maybe more on your outer shoulders?
Longitudinal
Blades push you on acceleration but does this work for deceleration too, like under braking?
Vertical
Will your whole body lifted up or is is more a kind of pressure you can feel?
And does it apply more on the sides of your legs?
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