SimXperience GS-5 Seat

[HoiHman]

Rodney, can you please explain to me how you can simulate G-forces using tactile? Tactile vibrates, right? As far as i know, G-forces are not vibration based. I would really love to know how this is even possible.

I tdon't think i need it, because my GS-4 (4,5) is working perfectly.

I just did a 25 lap race and my right side was getting a little sore at the end from being pressed in during 130R and especially Dunlop.

The feedback from the extra triangular foam is so big, that i just can't imagine having stronger forces against my ribs. Because the G-Forces are felt so good, i decided not to upgrade to the GS-5, because it has flat backpanels. (who will need modding again)

I just keep wondering how this feeling can be replicated through tactile

 

[Mr Latte]

Hussssssshhhhh.....

 

[metalnwood]

This is at the point where I think the tactile application is getting weird.

I fully understand that tactile can be used in many different ways to simulate many different things. As with Pavlovs dog, we can be conditioned to receive information in a different way and process it. So the brain can get used to tactile giving it a cue and relating it to some event. While it may not feel like the real thing, when the brain treats it as such then that can be fine.

So tactile may not give the ideal or best representation of a force but we can still use that in a game..

On to lateral g forces... I have been in the GS5, it has the BEST representation of lateral forces we could want because it most closely resembles what is happening in real life. It doesnt need any time for the brain to get used to this and associate it with cornering because it is what we expect for the very first corner.

While tactile may have a trick for those without a GS5 I cannot see why on earth you would want to use tactile here when you already have a better representation of a specific force.

No doubt tactile can complement a motion rig but also no doubt each part has strengths the other doesn't and tactile cannot be the best choice for every effect. In the case of lateral G this seems as silly as putting tactile in your real car to help you with the effect.

 

[Mr Latte]

Hussssssshhhhh.....

 

[metalnwood]

I understand what you are saying, and tactile can fill a number of gaps that us sim racers have. It can feel very natural for some of the effects that we are trying to reproduce so I am sure we are in total agreement there.

It's just on some things I don't get the point. That exercise machine using the terminology GForce is really stretching it when we are talking about the extended gforces that the GS5 is trying to simulate, which it does well in my limited time on a GS5. I saw the same argument with heave on the motion sim about implementing tactile to enhance the feeling of heave but tactile cant give you a better feeling on heave than a motion sim actually moving vertically and it cant simulate sustained G better then a GS5.

I think tactile, without motion or something like the GS5 has many possibilities to come up with something that over time the brain can associate with what we want it to be. That could include heave and some gforce. When you do have a GS5 or a motion platform then I think the effort should be in helping deliver what those platforms struggle to deliver. To me, 'gforces' from tactile with a GS5 is like putting tomato sauce on a $80 steak, it's not the right thing, you are muddying up something that is already great.

In all honesty, I applaud you for the time you put in to this area but tactile cannot out perform all other alternatives all of the time. Where they complement that is great as well.

 

[Mr Latte]

Hussssssshhhhh.....

 

[metalnwood]

I get your point entirely and that is why I reference Pavlov's dog. We can train ourselves to associate something that may or may not be very realistic with a sensation. Tactile works very well for that.

The point I am making is when we can replicate something that is more or less realistic in feel then why go out of our way to add something that is less realistic and hope we condition ourselves to it? I have been in the GS5 and would ask myself why would I would spend a considerable sum on top to add a competing effect that is not realistic? This is not a general statement, this is specifically in relation to the lateral G forces that were talked about.

I can also ask you what you have done to come to the conclusion you have? Perhaps the onus is on you to to spend the $$ on motion or gseats to prove what you want to prove rather then myself to spend thousands to give my own opinion?

 

[Mr Latte]

Hussssssshhhhh.....

 

[metalnwood]

There will always be tactile in my system to go along with motion, quite probably in that scenario it will be the wheel lock/slipping that will complement it well but am I going to buy a couple of the largest BK's available and the amps to power it just to try and add to the G effect? Well, not even you are prepared to do it.

 

[anton_Chez]

I think we're reaching the point of diminishing returns with the amount of high end hardware some of us are already running. I mean, I have 2 motion platforms, a direct drive wheel and tactile mounted to an 80 20 chassis. Slap my Rift on and it must be hard to feel gaps in what the brain is expecting to feel. Best leave the hardware dedicated to a certain job rather than trying to overlap everything. Especially with tactile where you need a massive amount of hardware to get all the positional information correct at the right amplitude with the correct hz. Something like my 2 x BK Mini LFE is perfect for dedicating to engine vibes. This removes some of the requirements of tactile from my actuators and allows them to concentrate on other things. If you've spent $3 - 5K on a G-Seat it's hard to justify going in the deep end with tactile. Especially when there is such a time investment as well with it. G-Seat you just bolt it on and run with it.

Tactile is great and it helps with a sense of speed and power especially on application of the throttle as well as under braking. I'd not race without it even with both motion platforms going.

 

[Mr Latte]

Hussssssshhhhh.....

 

[HoiHman]

Yes.... Rodney, but......

There becomes a point when enough is enough. Some effects don't need additional reïnforcement. I expect the GS-5 will be able to deliver as much G-force as you want to (or you body can handle) Only downside is that they are felt on the back and not on the side.

This is a side affect because the GS-5 is for all body types AND they want to use multiple effects. Acceleration forces would feel funny if the came from the side.

Because i wanted to have my effects pure, i only use the GS-4 for the G-force simulation and have disabled all other effects. My mod, as shown in a previous post in this topic, enhances the effect of the panels by a factor 2-2,5.

This morning when i got in my rig, i noticed that my right side was still a little sore from the long sessions yesterday. That's when you know : enough is enough.

If i can sell my GS-4 at a reasonable price, i might consider upgrade to a GS-5, but only after investigation if the same mod i have on my GS-4 will be possible on a GS-5.

Otherwise it just might be a step back for the G-force simulation

 

[Mr Latte]

Hussssssshhhhh.....

 

[metalnwood]

A large part of why you wont find those people here is the money aspect. A lot here have what most sim racers would call a dream setup. Something they will never have.

Still, most of us are on a budget although an extended one compared to a lot of people. The guys who can afford it all are not on these forums, if they are on any forums at all. Neither do they probably tinker, they throw down 50k or more and call it quits on their toy.

I know for a lot of SFX users that they have seen something they can finally afford, that doesn't mean they can afford it easily and it really doesn't mean they can then go double their investment to try high end tactile. I don't know why you have not added motion, or a gseat so you can try your ideas because I think that honestly, you are the person closest to being able to test your ideas, not someone that has an SFX and $800 in tactile that no use for your project.

It's a hard ask to suggest people that have already spent more than they ever thought they would to spend more again to test high end tactile and earn the right to comment on it.

 

[Requis]

Glad I found this thread...we have a GS-5 on order and have 8 Transducers and two Subwoofers, 5 Speakers on our SFX-100 build. The unit we are building from is a refurbished / used Virtual GT platform https://story.virtual-gt.net/ that uses Gary's patented signal processors and amplifiers. I'll be sure to report back on findings. Where our objective was to take an all immersive road trip to test those elements that derive the most immersion and what limitations, differences do the respective capabilities deliver on the best user experience. adding I look forward to sharing as we get closer to build date...currently at fabrication. maybe 30 days out. And thought this Graph did a great job showing Garys perspective and development efforts..

 

[Mr Latte]

Hussssssshhhhh.....

 

[metalnwood]

Mr Latte, nothing wrong with you asking someone to give something a go, my last post was just trying to say the predicament that most of us are in, when we have motion of a gs5 most of us have exhausted the funds to put towards this endeavour.

I wasn't implying you had told people to go and spend $800. It cost me that just for my simvibe, an amp and for of the small buttkickers. From what I have heard you say this is no good for the kind of effects you are talking about requiring a number of the largest buttkickers and amps to power them. That sounds like a much larger investment.

I really don't have any problem with you talking about it but it is not tried and it is certainly a point of debate. I didn't walk in to your thread to stir, a couple times you have brought this in to threads dedicated to other types of motion. I really don't mind but you can expect others views to be expressed if they like.

 

[Michal Burisin]

Just ran through discussion, quick note about high end tactile, I think I sank around 5k EUR towards tactile - tactile units, amps, splitters, cables, isolation and attachment to the rig and also I think over 500 hours of tinkering with it (maybe more, just guestimate). I have it complicated that I use rSeat N1 rig so I have to do custom work on all attachments but it would still be very expensive even on 8020 rig, maybe 3 - 3,5k EUR.

If SFX100 would be available when I started, it would be no brainer for me to invest in motion, g-seat and 2 big tactile units in dual role and I think I would have much better experience than with tactile alone I have now (6xBK Concert, 2xTST239, 4 amps, 2 splitters and shitload of cables ) for much less money and time invested.

This route I have taken have got me into more DYI mindset, so I don't regret it too much I have enjoyed the route but recently I don't have as much time for it, so it's getting little bit hard. With SFX100, GS5 I would have much more time for actual racing than constantly working on the rig

Also I think that when I go SFX100 I will have to remove all soft isolation which makes tactile feel so good, so lot of that effort and money invested will be greatly diminished... I think it might bring something more to motion than basic setup, but is it worth that extra 2 - 3,5k invested in tactile than what you get with basic setup (I mean 2 Big BK units + 2 TST 239 + 2 amps to drive it)?

This depends on individuals.

For me I'm not sure until I try it. But when I see those videos of SFX100, imagine G-Forces via G-Seat readily available, it seems much more fun than constantly tinkering with tactile.

Just my experience / opinion from more advanced tactile point of view.

Note for @Mr Latte. I don't want to seem ungrateful, I really appreciate all the advice you gave me and all your time invested in tactile info on this forum, big thanks for that. But in the recent changes with SFX100 being available for reasonable price I think it's better route to start a rig, add tactile for seat and pedals as I described (2 Big BK units + 2 TST 239 + 2 amps to drive it) and see where to go from there.

If you have unlimited budget, you can go wild of course

 

[anton_Chez]

I think Michael brings to light something that most of us don't even consider, although having done it myself, I do. The time it takes to get it all going as good as it can. It's very easy to get wrong or not do well, this tactile.

500 hours is 3 months of full time work, given a regular working week. Now, given we spend far more time working that playing, that could be up to an entire year spent in free time tinkering. I like tinkering but it gets old really fast.

So yeah another investment of not only a large sum of money for something until now very DIY and untried with software that has little to NO documentation and I can certainly understand why people shy away from spending time with tactile. Not saying it can't give great results, but why walk to work on your hands and knees when you can just use the car?

 

[Mr Latte]

Hussssssshhhhh.....