SimXperience GS-5 Seat

[Mr Latte]

The Dayton Puc has an additional mounting accessory available. You can see it matches the mounting holes of the GS4 and GS5. The Dayton Puc is listed at operating best between 20Hz-80Hz and this is why they feel much less involving with several effects. Exciters are typically used as speakers, hence why they are more lively with mid-high bass and support much higher frequencies. For the purpose we seek with them we can limit thier output to between 150Hz-200Hz as over 150Hz becomes more audible.

The exciters stick on with VHB (very high bond) 3M and as I presume some of you owners may use some form of additional padding on the panels (like memory foam) it may be possible to place the exciters on the top side of the panel with some additional rubber/foam support around them.

I dont think a small modification would be too hard to get 2 units on each panel but who knows as like you say I too have yet to see a detailed look at this being done before.

Just because these are small and low wattage. Do not underestimate how well these units can perform when you are using multiple sets of them and with direct body contact. While they cannot output high depth of bass, the detail you will get with being able to place multiple effects to different units and installed this way will very much outperform a typical Simvibe installation with two units attached to a typical seat.

This product review shows the Dayton Pucs and just a foam cushion approach. I thought it was rather basic and overpriced. It too did not seem to offer Lateral G or Speed Sensitive Steering stereo positional effects from the software used. So Simhub/Shakeit if used instead of what is shown here or Simvibe has advantages in effects and controls it offers. SSW does offer both Lateral and Lonfitidunal effects but it is very limited in how we can control the effect and has very limited engine sensations.

As I have said many times, much more is possible in how we combine tactile with the motion for each to benefit the other. It just depends on who is interested in seeking to push the boundaries and with some creativity taking the immersion further.

 

[mikemav]

Thanks, once I get the exciters we shall see what looks like it will work for mounting, maybe that will be the point at which I start the new thread in a few days.

Meanwhile since this is the GS-5 thread, any other owners have any software setups you'd like to share, or point me in the direction of best place to search to find starting points for Sim Commander w/ the GS-5? I need to rig up a temp mount on my low profile home-brew 80/20 rig to raise it up to test out while waiting for my P1-X to arrive, so I'll probably be in "hardware mode" for a day or two then be in a position to test setups.

 

[nerdthewise]

Here is my setup:

https://imgur.com/a/QjHZKa1

Four shakers in total. Have thought about adding the pucks, but haven't found a need just yet. Overall very pleased with my current layout. One plus for the pucks would be saving on a huge headache of trying to isolate the shakers on an 8020 rig (the P1-X at least).

I use Sim Commander as little as I possibly can (seat only), SimHub handles shakers and dashboard. I can share my profiles for either if you want them.

 

[Mr Latte]

@nerdthewise
Curious as to what Hz you are using for some effects, might be good to compare.

[edited]
Just yesterday, I was testing a new installation of my central BK CT unit to see how well it is working.
The large BK certainly are great for high energy feedback but they REALLY lack on the detailing with mid-high frequency ranges. This is where combining what you already have with some exciters would make a worthwhile upgrade.

I actually limited this unit for this quick test to only 30Hz via crossover. As a quick test it was tried with the following:.



All these effects were using very low frequencies and no higher than 19Hz for some really deep and strong sensations, they felt good but still could of been better. I will in future tests try having an effect that uses really low Hz for the BK unit. Combine with this another layer that is harmonically matched to the frequency it uses for an exciter. Doing that could help bring more mid-bass detail with the already really deep and strong sensation the BK is delivering.

The exciters certainly have plenty of additional immersion to offer (placed at body regions) for added detailing to work with the super low sensations, its an excellent approach to take.

 

[nerdthewise]

@Mr Latte

Here's my frequency settings (for the most part). In general I've end up running the LFE's at the same frequency as the Advances – anything lower than 20hz and I feel like something is going to break (that sharp punch does not feel realistic to me either). Otherwise effect frequencies are separated out into their space to I can tell the difference between say, wheel slip and lock. I've also added +/- 4hz of white noise into effects like slip to make it feel more organic/unpredictable.

 

[Mr Latte]

Perhaps, not best to get into the tactile too much here regards discussing settings. If you want to talk more about such then, by all means, create a thread on your rig if you wanted to do that at some time. Curious why you have duplicates of some effects (cant see additional settings) and I notice you're not close to using the lowest Hz at all with the settings you have, mmmmmm.

I wonder what settings other people are using for effects they use the larger BK with?

Is your amp DSP model?
If so this is just a quick configuring for a large BK, using the 30Hz Crossover and some EQ filtering. With this you should be able to get nice deep bass with moderate volumes. If you want we can share some effects in the future but it is possible to reduce the piston punch with some more precise configuring.

For EQ just use the Filter 1 & Filter Settings (ignore others 3-8)

 

[Mr Latte]

I placed those files I mentioned above on the Simhub Discord Channel for you to try if you want and use the amp settings above. Will take some messing around with volumes.

 

[mikemav]

@nerdthewise thanks for sharing the pics. Do you have a build thread or any more details about what you did for isolation for transducers on your rig? I see the isolators on the front-to-rear seat rails where they attach to the P1X base, and of course the buttkicker neoprene furniture isolator used on the "feet", any other details? Did mounting the seat to the frame that way make for any lack of stiffness on the overall feel, can you still really mash the brake pedal w/o those kinetic isolators raising the seat causing flex? What did you do for the pedals tactile iso? I hated the slag or movement available on my NLM V3 base "at rest" and would really like to take advantage of the inherent stiffness of P1X when I build it and the GS5. I will try the exciter direct to the GS5 panels mainly as suggested here, but also have several BK Mini LFE at least I'd like to use some for added effects so thinking of ways to isolate this same combo, would love your thoughts and experiences, thx! Have one idea of my own I tried temporarily on my old self-designed 80/20 until such time as the P1X arrives, I'll take a pic or two and post when I have a chance to test it.

 

[nerdthewise]

I have not created a build thread, but I will try to share some notes here.

1. Isolation is an absolute must with extrusion based builds. without those dampers between the seat rails and the rest of the rig I would have shaken the display to death pretty quickly. I am all but certain that is what killed my Ignition Controls button box. At first I tried one of these on each corner of the rail, but that was not stable enough (finding the perfect durometer for those was not going to happen) so I wound up doing two to a corner. Pretty sure this is what I used, but I have to dremel some of the excess threading off of each one for them to fit. With these feet in place the energy from the three shakers on the seat does not reach the pedal tray or display and the seat doesn't move under braking — even with my HPP's set to race brake stiffness and a large travel range.
2. The feet are the brackets from the P1-X feet with the Butt Kicker isolators attached and on carpet sliders so I can get the rig out of the corner easily. I used the 120 pound ones for a total load of 480 being roughly what I plus the rig weigh. With these installed my wife sleeping 10-15 feet away cannot feel the vibration (though she can hear bigger hits).
3. The RPM BK Advance is attached to an aluminum plate I had made locally through the three mounting holes for the BK Mini.
4. The LFE's work great and you maintain separation ( I have two support arms going off the seat rails to hold them. Plus they are hidden under the seat leading to a cleaner look. You could probably get away with BK Advances in place of the LFE's without any noticeable difference in effect.
5. Isolating the pedal tray so far has proven impossible without throwing away the easy adjustment system of the P1-X. For now adding a second shaker up there wouldn't change much as both would feel the same without isolation.

Overall I am extremely happy with how everything is functioning now, but I do have a spare Berhringer NX3000D that I might try to work in a second shaker for RPM higher on the back in the future.

 

[mikemav]

Thanks so much for the detailed response! I will likely use several of these tips in my build for sure. I hear my chassis is shipping this week so looking forward to the build. For now I had to replace my NLR V3 base which was much taller overall w/ the GS5+seat mounts it comes with. Do you use seat sliders? Was it you that commented what a pain they are to install on GS5? Scared me off a bit from doing it twice so for now, mounted on a temp basis and came up with what I think is a pretty cool idea.

These items pictured (with the leftover mis-matched round knobs to lock/unlock the sliding motion) are linear bearings from 80/20 supplier. One side (sliding) is made of self-lubricating UHMW and the other aluminum and there is a spacer built-in to allow a bit of gap between the fixed extrusion (attached to the aluminum interior part) and the extrusion which will move (attached to the white interior UHMW part of the bearing.) I know they are probably not designed for top/bottom use but in my limited testing just jury-rigging this thing together it seems to work without flex and the UHMW in effect "floats" my seat and 80/20 frame they are attached to from the chassis below. It does not slide that easily w/ all this weight of the GS-5 and frame I made on it, but in fairness I just cobbled this together and my linear bearing pieces are maybe 5 years old and not very fresh and clean, but seems to have promise for a mock-up at least. Also would be interesting to see what kind of kinetic isolation if any these provide for tactile improvement...I'm not taking them back off and mounting it a 3rd way to find out lol, but I'll at least see how these work when I get my transducers tested

 

[Mr Latte]

Guys, I would disagree that a BK Advance or indeed a BK Mini can achieve an output sensation with lowest bass frequencies like the fullsize LFE or CT models. It's NOT just a wattage or volume factor thing.

The piston weight of the LFE is almost 9x the weight of the one in the BK Mini lfe
The piston weight of the LFE is almost 4x the weight of the BK Advance

Buttkicker representatives themselves may try to tell you that the larger models are only needed for bigger seating solutions like comparing an office chair to a large 3 seater sofa.

Now what I found regards sim/telemetry based tactile that can output much more consistent low Hz than movies or music was that you simply get a better impact with the lower frequencies with each larger model. If you want the best low bass response from a larger BK then it is important to limit the range via the crossover. Just like guys do with professional subs in home cinema. You then crank the sucka using this unit for what its best made for. Combine it with exciters or TST (I am doing both) and it will bring much better immersion. No single tactile transducer or shaker will perform as well as a large BK/Exciter or BK/TST combo.

If you want the best, thats the direction you need to consider implementing.



Installation makes a big difference too, you want direct contact to the seat as possible to get the best primary energy.
Then with isolation in between but also limit the contact surface area that connects between the seat and the main cockpit base sections.

Doing this ensures more of the energy goes into the seat which goes into YOU than down into the rest of the rig frame.

 

[mikemav]

@Mr Latte totally understand the Mini and LFE cannot replicate the lower range of the big boys. Just like in muscle cars as they say, "there is no replacement for displacement" in engines, same applies to tactile, I'm on that page. I just can't justify buying larger transducers until I at least try the 8 exciters and make SOME kind of use of some of my Mini's. Once I try what I have, combined w/ the GS-5 and maybe/likely SFX100 in the future, I will evaluate what I can/need to add by upgrading to larger BK units. Just my two cents, I understand in many ways it would be more practical to go w/ the larger units from the bat, and therefore I will not spend too much time chasing down the road of multiple units I have, but I've got to at least give it a try..

 

[Mr Latte]

The exciters bring superb immersion, with the ability to run multiple effects at once compared to one unit.
You will not be unimpressed with it, even without other BK used. Looking at the Hz Brendon is using with the effects he posted the exciters would produce them really well but with multiple units, it is possibly even better than his LFE/ADV are managing due to their higher level of detail and wider frequency response they will give.

Keep in mind the Hz the units are actually having to output are not just the frequencies we select for effects. This is not how audio works, being able to monitor the true output can bring advantages with effects creation.

Of course, you can still use the Mini lfe as a sub-bass type unit but I'd keep an eye out for some ebay bargins on the larger models. If you get even one then it's going to let you enhance the lower Hz which can dramatically improve on the combined immersion when used with the exciters.

I will be trying for comparison the larger units to the BK Gamer, this was a previous test mockup.
One of the things I want to look at is a proper discovery into finding what are the optimal Hz to use on each unit for effects that require the lower Hz.


We need to get back to the GS5 though or continue the discussion in a new thread or at another time.
I do not know if on other forums if anyone has attempted to take the GS5 further with tactile?

 

[Furnace Inferno]

I’m thinking about selling my buttkickers, at least the one under the pedals because I don’t even notice it. I think there comes a point when there is just too much feedback to even notice anything new. Certainly when I got the GS-5 and left it on default settings with the panels doing bumps, I couldn’t even feel the SFX-100 suspension bumps any more I thought I’d forgot to turn it on!

The only way I would have felt it again would have been turning it up and then it probably would have dampened the feeling from the GS-5. So yeh one buttkicker for RPM is all I will use I think.

 

[Mr Latte]

I’m thinking about selling my buttkickers, at least the one under the pedals because I don’t even notice it. I think there comes a point when there is just too much feedback to even notice anything new. Certainly when I got the GS-5 and left it on default settings with the panels doing bumps, I couldn’t even feel the SFX-100 suspension bumps any more I thought I’d forgot to turn it on!

The only way I would have felt it again would have been turning it up and then it probably would have dampened the feeling from the GS-5. So yeh one buttkicker for RPM is all I will use I think.

That's true in some situations if something is overpowering other things it then is at the forefront of our attention.
Surely it depends if you have things working together in unison or working against each other?

I cant say how well in unison a GS5 would be with SFX tactile. As with the SFX100 tactile is it not limited to being only mono based? As in all channels are treated the same? If it's not possible to generate front/back or left/right effects independently to individual channels, as well as effects like Bumps/G-forces/Wheelslip/Steering that match the GS5 operation then it's very likely not going to be in sync with it.

We certainly can sync both with custom tactile and with Simhub/Shakeit.
The question is who has really tried?

Now, If you like engine sensations then I can assure you a single BK for RPM is not even close to the potential we can now achieve with custom effects layers to engine/speed sensations. Just seems, so much more you guys with GS5 could be doing yet it appears most users are still in the same Simvibe mindset regards what or how they use their tactile.

 

[Furnace Inferno]

Well it depends what you feel is missing, with VR I noticed a lot more than without so I’ve added more to the rig one thing at a time as I notice something else not quite how I’d expect. With just one tactile unit I needed more sensations at my feet so I got another. Then I noticed weird things with the CSW V2 so I got a DD wheel, next up new rig as the flex from the aforementioned DD felt like it might break the rig. Onto pedals the Fanatec CSV3 just didn’t feel right swapped for HE Pro’s.

Now I’m sat there thinking I need motion, initially looked at the NLRV3 but during my research stumbled into the SFX-100 and built it instead but obviously I now notice the lack of G-force to go with the suspension movement/bumps. In comes the GS-5 and guess what another thing is missing, under braking I’m just not getting that feeling of deceleration getting pushed into the straps so you guessed it time for a belt tensioner!

Honestly the only thing I really need from the buttkicker for is RPM when I’m just revving the engine and getting the deep bass tactile. High revs aren’t something I even notice feel wise in an actual car when driving.

So right now the suspension feels perfect and the low end RPM purr is good, I just need some more g-force feel under breaking. Although I say that now I’ll probably end up getting a traction loss system in and then surge. Thankfully it won’t be a joy to my bank anytime soon as I don’t have the space right now.

 

[Mr Latte]

Still think you're missing the potential of how we increase the motions immersion further with advanced tactile that is developed to work well with it.

We can greatly enhance the excitement from deceleration or braking with very high energy low-frequency bass and with this add judder or other depth emotion to bring felt character for different effects. This can even be created to feel as if it moves from the seat to the pedals with increased force. Just as you use memory muscle with pedals, you can become accustomed to the felt vibrational feedback for wheel lockups or wheel slip. So what happens if this was applied (beyond the norm) also with motion?

What is unique with tactile is that we can alter the felt sensations in so many ways or for different types of cars or personal preference if we wish. Real racecars create masses of characteristic vibration from hard braking, G-Forces or engines, often becoming rather violent environments and they certainly are not lifeless or minor tingles at high rpm.

Thats part of what I want to capture, that surge of energy, extended excitement and thrill though my bones delivering an intense seat of the pants experience. So yeah it really comes down to preferences and interests with the immersion we seek, prefer or even enjoy.