Sim racers are an easy target

[Rob Every]

Now bear with me here, this is going to wind a few of you up.

I just added up the RRP of everything for this game on Steam, no offers, and it adds up to £85.

I am guessing most of you think that is good value, but I beg to differ.

It is only good value because a lot of you maybe compare it to other games or Iracing, but in general terms let's compare it to other games.

I am currently playing God of War, that has no DLC, and retail sets you back about 40 quid. Full game, no addons, Some games I imagine cost far more or are similar price wise.

Sim comparison F1 2020 say, all content 64 quid. Automobilista season pass is 80 quid. I cant work out DR 2.0 but I think if you bought everything from release full price it was over 100. The basics games gives you a few cars and tracks for 40 odd quid, now that is a total rip off if you ask me and its because the game was about a third of a game on release.

Why is it that sim racers are so easy to exploit? I know we are not alone here, most games do it now, but with Dirt Rally 2.0 really showed what exploiting a tiny population can rake in if you di it. Literally selling old content as new. You are so easy to manipulate, new physics, tyres, Oh yes we'll pay 40 quid for 8 tracks and about 10 cars! Bless.

Fair enough this game is new, it feels new, and the content is good and you can get it on sale as you can now for cheaper.

But the fact remains sim developers really do exploit sim gamers, and why? Because on the whole most of you are desperate or dumb enough to just forget what games ought to cost. And pay whatever they want you to pay. Just like SKY, Amazon, Disney, Netflix etc.

Now that's a harsh comment I know, but take a look here, if you always do it, guess what happens, that cost keeps on rising, more DLC keeps coming and they market it as unmissable and you MUST have it, but really is it such a good idea? Eventually a game with all content will be 200 quid plus and you are making companies vast profits who in the past would have to work harder for their money, you make it easier and easier for them to exploit you.

Kunos announced recently they had made 100 million recently, couldn't they just release a bit more with the game from new instead of basically releasing half a game? Wouldn't that be refreshing?

 

[Serge.M]

Again I do not begrudge the money, to most it is worth it. My point is simply that in recent times to pay for all content on a higher and higher number of games is approaching 100 pounds over say a year to 2 years.

How is this different to buying two seperate games in that two year window, (F1 2019 and 2020), or last of us part one and then part two, or basically any game with a sequel. Just like you don’t have to buy the sequel to any game you don’t have to buy the add ons either, you would chose to if you are enjoying the original content exactly the same as you would chose to buy the sequel if you enjoyed the original game.

 

[opmike]

Honestly, racing sims are the ONLY DLC I have zero qualms about paying for. I suppose a part of it, is that most of the "good" sims are being run by very small dev teams working in a very niche genre and I want to help support its growth. Now, that's not to say I don't share all of the same frustrations. Outside of a few counterexamples here and there, most sims are basically in early access or beta at best, especially rFactor 2 which has been on the market for how long now, almost 10 years? It's beyond ridiculous, and every time I a new DLC drops without any kind of update to existing broken content, it's beyond frustrating. But, it is what it is, and I don't have a solution to what is almost certainly a cashflow problem for devs.

 

[RasmusP]

And really, it's up to you to vote with your wallet.

I guess he wants us all to vote with his wallet...
So the ones who can afford it and are "selfish and short sighted" and buy most of the stuff should stop buying it so people like him can buy it too.

Or we should stop buying it because he's not buying it because of principles.
And he doesn't want to be excluded on servers, which would make restricting himself more difficult.

 

[BabyGotBackmarker]

I have yet to feel I've been shortchanged by a sim. If the time you sink into a sim is more than the money you sink into a sim, it's money well spent. Given the time I've spent, I think my relative cost on ACC now is $1.12.

I'm not much of a gamer, but I see far worse exploitation. 2K Studios forcing kids to pay through the nose for microtransactions? THAT'S a problem. EA holding every American football fan in a headlock of gutted, glitchy titles? THAT'S a problem. Premium pricing for something very complex and large that obviously requires a lot of smart people to make? I'm fine with that.

 

[Rob Every]

I would agree that sim gamers are nowhere near as exploited as phone game players and other types of game.

But I simply wish a game could be one price, and that's it!!

 

[Deleted member 963434]

I as not only sim racing fan but also flying fan can tell my idea how one shall make sim. not like iceRacing you pay subscription then buy cars and tracks separately but from same dev, and ones made good others worse. Or like raceroom you gib game for free then you can buy cars and tracks seperately but all maybe by same one dev, and same thing ones made good others bad. I mean one dev cant make 200+ cars most imitating real ones lol. you just cant.
So why not make it that one dev spend all time making just one car? i mean like pro real life simulators?
And look at flying sim DCS World tey go with this approach.
My idea how to make worlds best simulator is you can download game for free, its basiccally most realistic racing, driving, physics engine made by one dev. Then this dev lets onther devs make cars for that engine. And cars cost more, like one game for example you download free racing sim wit one track and one car but you know this car is same as real thing, also ffb shall be like real thing, then you can buy other car for like 50 euro (lol Thats prices for planes in DCS) but you know that car you spend 50 euro will be same thing that car is in real life, cause one dev team spend much time to make this car most realistic way.

 

[PickABetterUsername01]

Anyone that plays other games knows that simracing content is extremely overpriced, but most boomers only play this kind of games(flying sims, racing, trucks...), so for them it's whatever.

The only simracing game I pay for DLC's without caring that much is Kunos, because it's regional priced, but that doesn't mean I'm completely fine with it. With the amount of money they are making, the game is very bare bones with still a lot of problems.

Just imagine if a somewhat big studio actually tried to create a simracing game without trying to cater to the arcade community.

 

[demetri]

Anyone that plays other games knows that simracing content is extremely overpriced, but most boomers only play this kind of games(flying sims, racing, trucks...), so for them it's whatever.

The only simracing game I pay for DLC's without caring that much is Kunos, because it's regional priced, but that doesn't mean I'm completely fine with it. With the amount of money they are making, the game is very bare bones with still a lot of problems.

Just imagine if a somewhat big studio actually tried to create a simracing game without trying to cater to the arcade community.

There's an easy solution for this. Open your own simracing development studio and make better racing games. Can't do that? Well, that's why they are making decent money that many people are happy to pay them for the products they created and you are, I guess, not. Sorry for being so harsh, but it gets me every time when people start counting money in other people's pockets.

And a big studio will never create a real hardcore simracing game because it will be a money loss for them, I hope I don't have to explain why.

I would agree that sim gamers are nowhere near as exploited as phone game players and other types of game.

But I simply wish a game could be one price, and that's it!!

Somebody explained you a couple of pages ago that your wish has already come true. The base ACC game bugs aside featured a complete content package. DLCs are akin to new sequel games that you can now get for a fraction of a full game price. Remember when it was GTR, then GTL and GTR2 all built on essentially the same engine? That's your DLCs you had to pay full game prices for if you wanted to have them back then.

This all is basic economics. Development of such complex simulations that we have today takes many man-years of software engineering and content creation work. Big studios won't do that, so we're stuck with smaller studios composed of a few enthusiasts doing it, and it takes many calendar years to get stuff done. Meanwhile, those small studios need to financially support their staff, pay for licenses and many other business expenses, so they need a constant revenue stream to keep the lights on and DLCs are probably the best way to achieve that currently. Either that, or find someone rich enough willing to invest their own money for years into this development, like iRacing did.

And remember, these games are not a necessity and you can always wait for the ultimate final edition to come out in years time costing less than the original game used to be priced on start.

 

[Deleted member 379375]

There's an easy solution for this. Open your own simracing development studio and make better racing games. Can't do that? Well, that's why they are making decent money that many people are happy to pay them for the products they created and you are, I guess, not. Sorry for being so harsh, but it gets me every time when people start counting money in other people's pockets.

And a big studio will never create a real hardcore simracing game because it will be a money loss for them, I hope I don't have to explain why.


Somebody explained you a couple of pages ago that your wish has already come true. The base ACC game bugs aside featured a complete content package. DLCs are akin to new sequel games that you can now get for a fraction of a full game price. Remember when it was GTR, then GTL and GTR2 all built on essentially the same engine? That's your DLCs you had to pay full game prices for if you wanted to have them back then.

This all is basic economics. Development of such complex simulations that we have today takes many man-years of software engineering and content creation work. Big studios won't do that, so we're stuck with smaller studios composed of a few enthusiasts doing it, and it takes many calendar years to get stuff done. Meanwhile, those small studios need to financially support their staff, pay for licenses and many other business expenses, so they need a constant revenue stream to keep the lights on and DLCs are probably the best way to achieve that currently. Either that, or find someone rich enough willing to invest their own money for years into this development, like iRacing did.

And remember, these games are not a necessity and you can always wait for the ultimate final edition to come out in years time costing less than the original game used to be priced on start.

Game set and match. There are an awful lot of armchair experts who don't take the time to critique their own thoughts and ideas. Funny how they seem to think game/sim creation is easy and/or highly profitable but don't take it up themselves for some reason.

 

[Rob Every]

I was not suggesting such a nonsensical idea was I? I simply believe I was talking about the methodology of releasing games as they used to and as they do now, and charging 2 or three times the amount for them, not because you want to pay that, but because they can and you will lap it up like a lemming and set a precedent for it to happen more and more and more.

What you are suggesting is a business plan, what I am suggesting is far simpler, be careful what you wish for or your 85 quid game will soon cost 150, then 200+

Not sure how you got from there, to starting a coding company, but that's your mind, not mine, so please stop!

 

[BabyGotBackmarker]

Funny how they seem to think game/sim creation is easy and/or highly profitable but don't take it up themselves for some reason.

Well, I would, but I majored in English, barely know how a PC works (gnomes?) and my girlfriend has absolutely forbidden me from buying out Aris' contract with Kunos and have him live here to help me. But and plus, while I think Pastor Maldonado X-Treme F1 Experience would make for a great sim, I seem to be in the minority. Since I can't even get those simple tasks done, I guess I really shouldn't have an opinion about anything on the market.

 

[demetri]

I was not suggesting such a nonsensical idea was I? I simply believe I was talking about the methodology of releasing games as they used to and as they do now, and charging 2 or three times the amount for them, not because you want to pay that, but because they can and you will lap it up like a lemming and set a precedent for it to happen more and more and more.

What you are suggesting is a business plan, what I am suggesting is far simpler, be careful what you wish for or your 85 quid game will soon cost 150, then 200+

Not sure how you got from there, to starting a coding company, but that's your mind, not mine, so please stop!

It will cost more anyway because it takes more and more labor to make a simracing game up to evolving modern standards than what they were making 15-20 years ago. The amount of details and complexity has increased dramatically since. And it is also quite a niche genre, so they can't compensate for that by selling many more copies than before. Your average Joes won't buy a $60 game they can't enjoy at all because they have zero skills and no desire to put some time and work into getting them because that's not instant gratification they are looking for. They might buy it if it costs $10-20 just to fool around, but I'd prefer they won't. Every time AC was selling with a big discount there was a swarm of people plaguing online servers who had no clue whatsoever and would only wreck themselves and everyone around them. Guess why?

If you have an idea about how to develop modern simulations with less effort (not sacrificing the quality in the process) I think many studios would gladly hire you.

 

[Deleted member 963434]

I was not suggesting such a nonsensical idea was I? I simply believe I was talking about the methodology of releasing games as they used to and as they do now, and charging 2 or three times the amount for them, not because you want to pay that, but because they can and you will lap it up like a lemming and set a precedent for it to happen more and more and more.

What you are suggesting is a business plan, what I am suggesting is far simpler, be careful what you wish for or your 85 quid game will soon cost 150, then 200+

Not sure how you got from there, to starting a coding company, but that's your mind, not mine, so please stop!

well as i steted before i would gladly even get sim racing title with one track and one car for free, then spend 50 bucks on one car if it would be certain car i gave 50 bucks for and its ffb would act same as real thing. As it is in DCS they made flying sim with 2 free planes for free and people paying 50 bucks or more to fly one plane but they know its 99% accurately made, DCS devs eagle dynamics made sim engine DCS World released some planes and one "game" for it thats flaming cliffs 1, 2 and 3, but rest planes are made by third party devs that eagle dynamics take % off their earnings and its working good both for eagle dynamics who made DCS and community cause everybody know one dev studio cant make 200 planes 99% accurate each in small amount of time, but if each plane is made for year or so by just one dev theire certain its as much accurate as could be. i think we need such sim racing game i mean wouldn't it be fun to drive fiat unos if you know car acts 100% like real car? imagine if yo would be able to get out your basement and be able to drive in real life even if its fiat uno, would you say no? i think todays sims ALL are nowhere near real thing but it can be changed if not one dev studio work on one sim but like 100 devs studios works on one sim and we have 100 cars 100% accurate and its ffb's

 

[Gergo Panker]

Well, I would, but I majored in English

That's no excuse, I'm also an English major.

 

[Deleted member 379375]

OP I'm not sure name calling is making your argument more persuasive.

As said earlier when someone goes to work
and earns their money they have the right to choose how they spend it. If you were paying them then you may have a say. No one forces anyone to buy DLC. most are happy to pay for more content for an already complete game they enjoy.

People are quite capable of making their own decisions.
I don't like the IRacing business model so I don't touch IRacing simple.

 

[Neilski]

Well, I would, but I majored in English

Maybe that's why your username is so awesome!

 

[Alex Townsend]

Times have moved on, deal with it.
You keep spouting the same rubbish about games costing more and more and we're all lemmings etc.
First stop with the name calling, you've been advised before that it's not helping your cause or your arguments and just making you look like a child that isn't getting its own way and wants everyone to do what he's doing.
Second, as has been explained to you a few times too, the old way of buying a game complete, then the studio move on and make a new game that you buy still happens, but sim racing studios have a different model. They support their titles for years now, they bring out DLC to pay their bills and to increase longevity in said title. Then they continue support. If you don't want the DLC then don't. No one has a gun to your head.
If you really want it, wait until there is a sale and buy it or just wait until they give it away on some other platform.
You are going on and on about us making this an issue when it's just the way things have changed.

If you don't like it then just stop. It seems you're spending more time moaning about it than actually playing any of the titles so something is wrong there. Maybe you need a different hobby that doesn't upset you anymore?

 

[Serge.M]

Sim racing is also a very small community, making DLC’s for one sim keeps the already small player base together. Making different games would segregate the community which wouldn’t be good at all.

Doesn’t look like anything being said in here is being taken on board though...

 

[Rob Every]

I am not calling any body names, if people follow the same pattern regardless of consequence, the nicest thing to say is lemmings!! Its hardly a war crime is it now, jeez.

The community is already split among a vast array of similar games, AC, Automobil, Project Cars, RaceRoom, Iracing, F1 series, NASCAR games, I think really they all do the same thing to a far lesser degree.

ACC is more of a longer term project, that was released with the barest minimum content with the intention of maximising profit from DLC as much as possible.

I do see the differences, but I also see the issues coming in the future.

People will disagree, the same people that now perhaps have 5 sports subscriptions, netflix, Amazon Prime, Sky, Disney etc etc.

And obviously when you point out to someone that their so called investment might be causing trouble down the line, nobody wants to hear that, they get all protective and the like, it's to be expected, it's your special thing, and you don't want to hear anything negative about your special thing. Sorry but this thread is about that, so either move on or discuss.

I don't make posts to be liked by sycophantic people, I make posts that create discussion and about things that concern me for the future. Sadly the world is all too often full of people hitting "like" and doing nothing else.

 

[Serge.M]

You’re trying to find a problem where one doesn’t exist