Sim racers are an easy target

[Rob Every]

Now bear with me here, this is going to wind a few of you up.

I just added up the RRP of everything for this game on Steam, no offers, and it adds up to £85.

I am guessing most of you think that is good value, but I beg to differ.

It is only good value because a lot of you maybe compare it to other games or Iracing, but in general terms let's compare it to other games.

I am currently playing God of War, that has no DLC, and retail sets you back about 40 quid. Full game, no addons, Some games I imagine cost far more or are similar price wise.

Sim comparison F1 2020 say, all content 64 quid. Automobilista season pass is 80 quid. I cant work out DR 2.0 but I think if you bought everything from release full price it was over 100. The basics games gives you a few cars and tracks for 40 odd quid, now that is a total rip off if you ask me and its because the game was about a third of a game on release.

Why is it that sim racers are so easy to exploit? I know we are not alone here, most games do it now, but with Dirt Rally 2.0 really showed what exploiting a tiny population can rake in if you di it. Literally selling old content as new. You are so easy to manipulate, new physics, tyres, Oh yes we'll pay 40 quid for 8 tracks and about 10 cars! Bless.

Fair enough this game is new, it feels new, and the content is good and you can get it on sale as you can now for cheaper.

But the fact remains sim developers really do exploit sim gamers, and why? Because on the whole most of you are desperate or dumb enough to just forget what games ought to cost. And pay whatever they want you to pay. Just like SKY, Amazon, Disney, Netflix etc.

Now that's a harsh comment I know, but take a look here, if you always do it, guess what happens, that cost keeps on rising, more DLC keeps coming and they market it as unmissable and you MUST have it, but really is it such a good idea? Eventually a game with all content will be 200 quid plus and you are making companies vast profits who in the past would have to work harder for their money, you make it easier and easier for them to exploit you.

Kunos announced recently they had made 100 million recently, couldn't they just release a bit more with the game from new instead of basically releasing half a game? Wouldn't that be refreshing?

 

[Squalido]

I think there are two main reasons for this kind of business model being common in sim racing:

1) Licenses are expensive: they need to license all the content released and it is usually expensive. For ACC, they have exclusivity with SRO, but they still need to negotiate/buy each track and car license.

2) Sim racing is niche: maybe Kunos games are an outlier here because they have been very succesfull in the past years, but sim racing games usually don't sell as well as other games. So it is unfair to compare a game that sells millions of copies with games that probably only sell hundreds of thousands if they manage to be successful. For the Forza games for example, they can manage to include hundreds of different cars in their games because they sell a lot more than the hardcore sims we are discussing here.

 

[Rob Every]

As mentioned previously, the issue is not the money, I think over time and with offers what is offered is relatively good value on its own. Although I do not agree that liveries should have any cost element added to them in all honesty, tracks and cars yes, but liveries should be left to modders.

It is more the fact a game is released with say 75% of its eventual and likely content, in full knowledge of that, at a base price, in FULL knowledge that will be doubled with DLC to make more money.

 

[DW1]

It is more the fact a game is released with say 75% of its eventual and likely content, in full knowledge of that, at a base price, in FULL knowledge that will be doubled with DLC to make more money.

Content takes time and resources to make... why *should* you expect that any game should wait until the point where they've completed all of their planned expansion content to release it all in a single package at a single price.
The base ACC package is complete - it encompases the entirety of the championship it was advertised as providing. I can't see anything wrong at all with expanding on that platform later, and expecting people to pay for that significant additional work (especially when they frequently overhaul entire base systems in free patches that benefit the base game).

At the end of the day, when most "Triple A" publishers are pushing to shift the base price of their games towards the £70 default mark, £85 for an extensively expanded *simulator* seems fantastic value.
The key word being simulator. I guarantee that Ubisoft aren't pouring 10,000s of man-hours into refining an exhaustively researched and accurate physics model for Assassin's Creed, and the audience for their games are at least an order of magnitude greater than for the likes of Kunos. Kunos are not raking in hundreds of millions here, they're asking a fair price for work of an incredible level of quality.
I consider it an absolute privilege that we get to experience this level of work for less than £1000 a pop really.
This is as much professional-grade simulator as it is game (and in fact, having to *also* develop high-quality photoreal graphics in tandem with a simulator probably means it takes more resources than a strictly professional-use-only simulator package)

 

[Rob Every]

Lol I'm sure the shareholders of Kunos are delighted to hear you say it is a privilege to give them more money than you would have done years ago. AS I say, sim racers ARE an easy target, sorry but it is just fact.

How on earth does anyone describe the success of Iracing otherwise!!

I have never said the product is not quality or otherwise, simply that there is obviously a clear plan to make significantly more than RRP out of DLC, when it was probably all designed from the start.

I simply think that is a step that is only going one way, and with comments like yours you can see exactly where it is heading, you should never be privileged to pay more than you really ought to. Can you not see the danger in that comment?

 

[Alex Townsend]

Seriously, it's been explained to you so many times now. This is not just a game you buy complete on day one, then wait until the next game with a slightly updated storyline and textures for another pay out. It's a simulator, it's supported for years and they add to it over these years. You don't understand it, you don't like it, and you won't be told any differently so just think about a different hobby, please, and stop trying to wind up the people that do understand.

 

[Rob Every]

Why keep posting, you clearly miss the point I have made and are delirious to the actual point.

And that is that a game or sim costing 40 quid now costs upwards of 90 depending on what time you bought stuff and what package you bought.

That is the ONLY point that I am making.

I don't CARE that you THINK it was complete on release as it was not, it covered one series, now they cover umpteen, and that was the PLAN from the start,

Ask yourself this one question now. Without knowing the game or playing it at all, would you pay £85 for all the content as it stands now if it was released tomorrow. I doubt it, and if you would you are basically giving publishers the right to charge more, and more and more. If that makes you happy, why not offer to pay more for your shopping, petrol, taxes nest time you pay them too.

Those are the points, regardless of the pointless stuff you keep posting about series and completed games, this game is not complete even now, so stop saying it is for goodness sake. A completed game is not patched anymore, or updated or more things offered for sale. It is left alone, and this title clearly is not.

 

[DW1]

...simply that there is obviously a clear plan to make significantly more than RRP out of DLC, when it was probably all designed from the start.

Obvious in what way?

You're suggesting they had already gone on expensive and long trips to South Africa, Japan, USA, Australia, and the UK (plus Imola in their home-country) to painstakingly laser-scan and and texture-source 8 different tracks *before* the release of the base game?

You're suggesting they'd already received data on, studied, modelled, and implemented 11 different GT4 vehicles *before* the release of the base game?


It's obvious that they planned to *create* a bunch of new content after release, with all the time and resource investment that requires... I don't see why you would expect not to pay for that.

 

[Alex Townsend]

Why keep posting, you clearly miss the point I have made and are delirious to the actual point.

And that is that a game or sim costing 40 quid now costs upwards of 90 depending on what time you bought stuff and what package you bought.

That is the ONLY point that I am making.

I don't CARE that you THINK it was complete on release as it was not, it covered one series, now they cover umpteen, and that was the PLAN from the start,

Ask yourself this one question now. Without knowing the game or playing it at all, would you pay £85 for all the content as it stands now if it was released tomorrow. I doubt it, and if you would you are basically giving publishers the right to charge more, and more and more. If that makes you happy, why not offer to pay more for your shopping, petrol, taxes nest time you pay them too.

Those are the points, regardless of the pointless stuff you keep posting about series and completed games, this game is not complete even now, so stop saying it is for goodness sake. A completed game is not patched anymore, or updated or more things offered for sale. It is left alone, and this title clearly is not.

Why keep posting? Cause it's my right on an open forum to do so.
Also, it is my right to put my views across.

It was complete on release, it was released as the series that we bought, that is fact. move on

You have asked that one question before, and I have answered it already...
Yes, yes I would buy this sim for all the content it has now for 85 quid, your point is what? Value of items is heavily subjective, do I think the title in it's current state with all of it's content is worth 85 quid? YES I DO.
You're obviously not reading responses and just driving your agenda forward regardless.
You also do not appear to understand that you are severely in the minority here, to the point where almost no one is agreeing with your point of view. Doesn't this tell you something? Even with those blinkers on, just a little bit?
A completed GAME, yes, but this is a SIMULATOR, as has been mentioned countless times. It's being supported and added to over the years, how many of your completed games still have developer support and content being licensed and produced? I'll give you a clue, it's close to zero.

But hey, in the spirit of this lunacy, I'll agree with you, yes, Sim Racers are easy targets for a good deal. Let's close this rubbish now. Thank you

 

[Rob Every]

You seriously expect anyone to believe that this company are doing for the love of it only? And not also to make a over 100 million quid!

I have no issue with that aspect, the product is good, I enjoy playing it, but companies ONLY invest to accumulate money, nothing more, it is why they do it, and if it fails they go under. Kunos are probably doing this to sell on to a big corporate, as Codies have done. If you want a Milestone, keep going as you are, companies making dire games linked to series that are costing them a fortune to licence.

My only point left is simply be careful what you wish for, if you keep just buying more and more and more, they will neglect existing models of game building in the realisation that people are gullible and will happily spend 2 or three times what WAS a sensible purchase price years ago on their gaming now.

If you are happy with that as you are selfishly enjoying yourself with no consideration for the wider gaming world, people on lower incomes, people in poorer countries etc, let that be your legacy.

I find it repulsive sorry. it is greed, selfishness beyond words and utterly loathsome when you consider what precedent it sets for your and our future in monetization of games and exploitation of gamers worldwide.

 

[Fat-Alfie]

...making games is a totally unnecessary industry that we all happen to buy into as it gives us enjoyment, ...

I think you need to find a different hobby, or at the very least, another outlet for your anger.

 

[Gevatter]

To all you people out there driving cars:

If you are happy with that as you are selfishly enjoying yourself with no consideration for the wider transit world, people on lower incomes, people in poorer countries etc, let that be your legacy.

Disgusting.

My only point left is simply be careful what you wish for

I wish for you to find another argument, you current one wears thin. You've been saying the same thing for 8 pages now, inching ever closer to conspiracies about Kunos having been out for money only. Don't partake in simracing if you can't afford it. You obviously can't or you wouldn't be so bitter about spending 15 EUR a year on additional content nobody is forced to buy.

There are plenty of racing games that cost next to nothing. Cranks & Goggles costs 1 EUR and is great fun and free of additional content. A full experience if you will. The SimBin Bundle costs 30 EUR, containing four full games. Actually don't buy that, there's some evil DLC in that bundle. You wouldn't want to encourage that type of business model now, would you?

 

[Majuh]

Seriously, it's been explained to you so many times now. This is not just a game you buy complete on day one, then wait until the next game with a slightly updated storyline and textures for another pay out. It's a simulator, it's supported for years and they add to it over these years.

Nope, literally 50% of the posts in this thread say that the game was complete on day one and DLC is just a totally optional thing.

Sim racers are an easy target

Now bear with me here, this is going to wind a few of you up. I just added up the RRP of everything for this game on Steam, no offers, and it adds up to £85. I am guessing most of you think that is good value, but I beg to differ. It is only good value because a lot of you maybe compare it to...

www.racedepartment.com

Sim racers are an easy target

Now bear with me here, this is going to wind a few of you up. I just added up the RRP of everything for this game on Steam, no offers, and it adds up to £85. I am guessing most of you think that is good value, but I beg to differ. It is only good value because a lot of you maybe compare it to...

www.racedepartment.com

 

[Alex Townsend]

Nope, literally 50% of the posts in this thread say that the game was complete on day one and DLC is just a totally optional thing.

Sim racers are an easy target

Now bear with me here, this is going to wind a few of you up. I just added up the RRP of everything for this game on Steam, no offers, and it adds up to £85. I am guessing most of you think that is good value, but I beg to differ. It is only good value because a lot of you maybe compare it to...

www.racedepartment.com

Sim racers are an easy target

Now bear with me here, this is going to wind a few of you up. I just added up the RRP of everything for this game on Steam, no offers, and it adds up to £85. I am guessing most of you think that is good value, but I beg to differ. It is only good value because a lot of you maybe compare it to...

www.racedepartment.com

But DLC is totally optional here. You don't need it to play this title.

 

[Alex Townsend]

I find it repulsive sorry. it is greed, selfishness beyond words and utterly loathsome when you consider what precedent it sets for your and our future in monetization of games and exploitation of gamers worldwide.

Are you even serious right now?
Selfishness for buying content... That's new. Do you go on the car forums and wind up people that buy Bmws, Porsches and Ferrari?
What is this crusade you're on and why did you come here for the measly amounts involved in DLC for racing titles. There are people out there doing far worse. You need to get out and have a look around. And while you're at it, look at a new hobby that doesn't upset you so much, please. You'll have a much better life not whinging about stuff that only you seem to be upset about.

 

[Kenny Paton]

I'm considering locking this thread as I feel it's ran it's course.
154 posts in and I think every point from all sides have been covered.
Plus I see it becoming more personal.

 

[Gevatter]

I'm considering locking this thread as I feel it's ran it's course.
154 posts in and I think every point from all sides have been covered.
Plus I see it becoming more personal.

You're right, and you should IMO. Nothing new will come out of this.

Neither will Rob persuade anybody to skip DLC for the greater good, nor will we persuade him that the current business model won't set the world ablaze.

 

[Kenny Paton]

Okay that's it done.