Podium DD's VS Simucube 2's

[Darren Byrne]

Hi guys, the past while I was trying to find good comparisons between these two models of dd's. Has anyone tested both ? I understand that the software for these aren't complete yet but is there any clear winner here ? thanks.

 

[RichardHessels]

Being able to adjust FFB via telemetry can make a big difference. For example, I tried AMS1 with the Accuforce and experimented with quite a few settings. One thing I tried is disabling all (or almost all) game FFB and using FFB from the Accuforce and basing it on lateral Gs; t made the FFB act a bit more realistically, smoothly, and controllable during oversteer than the default AMS FFB.

I think the option of some telemtery FFB editing can be beneficial for a number of reasons especially for DD users:
- every game has different FFB and we all have our preferences of what we like and don't like
- real-life "FFB" is fundamentally different to our games' FFB because real-life "FFB" is passive/reactive while our games' FFB is active
- real-life FFB is based on a true torque force while our wheels are using speed/position
- all games as of this writing are still limited to using a very old FFB system called Microsoft DirectInput. This is a very primitive FFB design from the 1990s

The power, speed, acceleration, etc. of DD motors expose the shortcomings of the above list (I have been vocal about this for around 3 years since I got my DD wheel, other FFB "gurus" are starting to confirm what I've been saying all along).

Another thing I mentioned to the Simucube guys at Granity is a filter kind of like their static force reduction filter but only for SAT in order to help reduce unrealistic SAT FFB DD users experience. Granity said this is something they've been looking at but unfortunately it'll be extremely difficult (if not impossible) to do so without telemetry.

Another thing that would be fantastic - and it's surprisingly not available in the Accuforce - is front tyre slip filters. in the rFactor 1 FFB file, there are around 3 different front-grip FFB settings you can tune which I loved and were, by far, the most important FFB aspect for me to setup whenever I got a new wheel.

Engine revs is good too. In real race cars, the steering wheel vibrating is extremely noticeable (the entire chassis for that matter). I don't think any sim truly simulates engine-vibrations so these are already "fake" effects anyways (like in rFactor 2 and some other sims). I like putting these vibrations quite strong as it much more closely mimics my real-life racing experience than sims with default FFB. I bet tactile transducers can replicate this better and therefore we don't need the effect from the FFB but I still haven't setup any of my transducers so I'm not sure

The only thing I would recommend Granity and Fanatec do if they go this route is to keep it simple and also make sure the U.I. is very intuitive. The Accuforce SimXperience program is incredibly messy, unintuitive, and full of bugs.

DD wheels need different filters and such as their extreme power and responsiveness exposes a lot of the limitations of current FFB technology.

I think if we would get true FFB, as in 1 on 1 simulations of a racing car we would be dissapointed.
As most of the sensation and judgement of the cars bahaviour comes from your butt, not your hands.

 

[RobertR1]

A bit too much plastic for my taste. I’d worry about it’s longevity.

Wouldn’t trade my OSW straight up for it to be fair.

 

[Daniel oliver]

Where did Barry get his dd2 from? I bet Fanatec wish they had sent out a checked unit.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

Now we finally have two proper side by side reviews to simplify decision making for those who is still on the fence.

 

[Spinelli]

I think if we would get true FFB, as in 1 on 1 simulations of a racing car we would be dissapointed.
As most of the sensation and judgement of the cars bahaviour comes from your butt, not your hands.

Exactly. I agree 100%. And it would be even worse with today's cars with power-steering.

That's why I'm such a big supporter of more FFB tuning and it's the very reason I sold my Simucube 1 and purchased an Accuforce (although I'm selling the AF because it doesn't currently have some of the specific types of FFB adjustments I'm looking for but that's besides the point).

I've been saying for many years that more FFB adjustments is the way to go. I remember when RF2 (and Game Stock Car) were released. I wrote quite a few posts explaining how I thought more FFB adjustment options were needed because just a pure "steering rack forces" type of FFB wasn't optimal for some users (including myself). It seemed like the vast-majority of people were against my idea at the time though as they were really tired of the pre-RF2 system (RF1, GTR, GTL, R07, etc.) and all the tinkering it needed to get a desired feel for each game, not to mention having to re-tinker if you got a new wheel (I partially agree here). Most people back then strongly preferred the FFB "styles" of games like Live for Speed, Netkar Namie / Pro, iRacing, and Driver's Republic (sadly never left alpha). They just wanted a true 1:1 steering rack FFB with no FFB effects/filters. Even if a FFB effect was based on telemetry/physics, it was a big no no in most people's eyes because it's "canned" (ie. not generated purely from the in-game car's steering rack forces).

As Andrew stated, having too many FFB settings and having a base FFB that can be very hit or miss (like RF1, GTR, Pcars, R3E, etc.) can cause a lot of frustration and endless FFB tuning; it can quickly turn into an endless mess. It's a fine balance and that's why I've been saying that telemetry FFB (eg. SimXperience) is fantastic BUT it has to be done very neatly and kept simple. It seems Fanatec are doing just that as they just announced they are getting into telem FFB but keeping it very simple (at least for now).

I'm glad to see more and more people agreeing to what I've been saying for so many years. We all have different wheels, different overall cockpit setups (motion, tactile, etc.), different sims/games, and different preferences & "philosophies" regarding FFB feel therefore some FFB tuning would be nice.

 

[RaceNut]

Exactly. I agree 100%. And it would be even worse with today's cars with power-steering.

That's why I'm such a big supporter of more FFB tuning and it's the very reason I sold my Simucube 1 and purchased an Accuforce (although I'm selling the AF because it doesn't currently have some of the specific types of FFB adjustments I'm looking for but that's besides the point).

I've been saying for many years that more FFB adjustments is the way to go. I remember when RF2 (and Game Stock Car) were released. I wrote quite a few posts explaining how I thought more FFB adjustment options were needed because just a pure "steering rack forces" type of FFB wasn't optimal for some users (including myself). It seemed like the vast-majority of people were against my idea at the time though as they were really tired of the pre-RF2 system (RF1, GTR, GTL, R07, etc.) and all the tinkering it needed to get a desired feel for each game, not to mention having to re-tinker if you got a new wheel (I partially agree here). Most people back then strongly preferred the FFB "styles" of games like Live for Speed, Netkar Namie / Pro, iRacing, and Driver's Republic (sadly never left alpha). They just wanted a true 1:1 steering rack FFB with no FFB effects/filters. Even if a FFB effect was based on telemetry/physics, it was a big no no in most people's eyes because it's "canned" (ie. not generated purely from the in-game car's steering rack forces).

As Andrew stated, having too many FFB settings and having a base FFB that can be very hit or miss (like RF1, GTR, Pcars, R3E, etc.) can cause a lot of frustration and endless FFB tuning; it can quickly turn into an endless mess. It's a fine balance and that's why I've been saying that telemetry FFB (eg. SimXperience) is fantastic BUT it has to be done very neatly and kept simple. It seems Fanatec are doing just that as they just announced they are getting into telem FFB but keeping it very simple (at least for now).

I'm glad to see more and more people agreeing to what I've been saying for so many years. We all have different wheels, different overall cockpit setups (motion, tactile, etc.), different sims/games, and different preferences & "philosophies" regarding FFB feel therefore some FFB tuning would be nice.

I generally agree with your post but, I would add that offering a simple/basic tuning option (UI) vs an advanced one is probably the best solution. It sounds like that is what GD will add to the UI and I know some AF users have suggested that option should be added to SimCommander as well. After all, one persons tuning nightmare may be another's dream. FFB-tuning can be a hobby in and of itself.

 

[RaceNut]

One thing to consider with the SC2 and the Podium DD wheels is that they're all-in-one solutions. Most everything is on the steering base, including much of the electronics and processors, the exception being power bricks. My older OSW-style wheel with "Mige" motor has the processor and powersupplies in a separate case, connected via milspec plugs and heavy cables.

Why might this matter? A DD wheel is capable of very high g-forces. Banging around the electronics, which weren't necessarily designed for this environment, may or may not be an issue with these designs. In the older Mige-style designs, the steering base was just the motor and encoder, which were designed for the capability and torque of these servos.

Certainly, the reports of issues with both the Fanatec DD wheels and the SC2 raises an issue. We had zero similiar reported issues with the original OSW setups with outboard electronics. This suggests something about these newer designs might be an issue. My hunch is the all-in-one solution. Components in those steering bases and electronic boards are getting jostled something fierce. Even something as simple as the USB plugs were not really designed to get bashed by FFB 24/7, as they are in these designs. Just a thought.

You raise a good point in terms of longevity / durability. At least with Granite Devices, they have a lot of experience with controller design suited to industrial and highly demanding environments so I suspect their design should prove to be very reliable over the long run (but, time will tell - of course).

 

[RCHeliguy]

I will say this. Granite state did address the issue of things being bulky. The SC2 Pro is a compact little brick. It all feels like a solid piece. They included nice SS mounting hardware for it too. I substituted 14 awg 1 foot long AC cords since the PS's are right on top of my power strip in my rig.

I have 50cm extensions installed for the 6 wire connectors and everything will now reach fine.
I've got the Sim-Lab Mige 30ST mount for it. It fits like a glove and feels solid. It also has the Fanatec 3 bolt mount pattern under it so it will bolt up to just about any chassis out there.

That's it for now. My PSE wheel won't arrive for about 3 weeks.
I'll make some matching dove tail wheel hangars out of 3/4" thick black delrin once the delrin arrives.

This is approximately how I'll be mounting the power supplies to my rig. You can see the extra 1 foot power cable vecro'd in place and the brackets that I machined recently for velcro straps.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

50mm = 1.9 inches.

 

[RCHeliguy]

When the 3/4" black delrin gets here I think it will make a good wedge and wheel hangar. I just need to drill a hole with a recess for a bolt head to mount it with. I'm thinking that a very small chamfer around the sharp edge is all I want on this and then just knock off the sharp corners.

I measured a wedge angle of 20.7 degrees and a dovetail angle of 60 degrees.

This is a very simple and solid mount. Just allowing the female hub by itself to slide .5 inches into place creates a solid connection with no play even against this plywood surface.

When I look at the other quick release solutions out there and then what the SC2 is using, I wonder if they had someone with a wood working background come up with this. This is incredibly simple. A dovetail joint is extremely strong, self centering and has lots of surface area. A mathematically beautiful and elegant solution. Looking at this up close, I'm very happy to adopt this method of QR for my rig.

 

[RichardHessels]

Exactly. I agree 100%. And it would be even worse with today's cars with power-steering.

That's why I'm such a big supporter of more FFB tuning and it's the very reason I sold my Simucube 1 and purchased an Accuforce (although I'm selling the AF because it doesn't currently have some of the specific types of FFB adjustments I'm looking for but that's besides the point).

I've been saying for many years that more FFB adjustments is the way to go. I remember when RF2 (and Game Stock Car) were released. I wrote quite a few posts explaining how I thought more FFB adjustment options were needed because just a pure "steering rack forces" type of FFB wasn't optimal for some users (including myself). It seemed like the vast-majority of people were against my idea at the time though as they were really tired of the pre-RF2 system (RF1, GTR, GTL, R07, etc.) and all the tinkering it needed to get a desired feel for each game, not to mention having to re-tinker if you got a new wheel (I partially agree here). Most people back then strongly preferred the FFB "styles" of games like Live for Speed, Netkar Namie / Pro, iRacing, and Driver's Republic (sadly never left alpha). They just wanted a true 1:1 steering rack FFB with no FFB effects/filters. Even if a FFB effect was based on telemetry/physics, it was a big no no in most people's eyes because it's "canned" (ie. not generated purely from the in-game car's steering rack forces).

As Andrew stated, having too many FFB settings and having a base FFB that can be very hit or miss (like RF1, GTR, Pcars, R3E, etc.) can cause a lot of frustration and endless FFB tuning; it can quickly turn into an endless mess. It's a fine balance and that's why I've been saying that telemetry FFB (eg. SimXperience) is fantastic BUT it has to be done very neatly and kept simple. It seems Fanatec are doing just that as they just announced they are getting into telem FFB but keeping it very simple (at least for now).

I'm glad to see more and more people agreeing to what I've been saying for so many years. We all have different wheels, different overall cockpit setups (motion, tactile, etc.), different sims/games, and different preferences & "philosophies" regarding FFB feel therefore some FFB tuning would be nice.

Get some big buttkickers to do that feedback for you, so your steeringrack output is more clear.
How much FFB signals on a single rotating axle can your still handle?

 

[RaceNut]

Get some big buttkickers to do that feedback for you, so your steeringrack output is more clear.
How much FFB signals on a single rotating axle can your still handle?

Ideally, there would be a single proven standard for "Simulations" to meet in terms of the physics and how FFB is derived but, even the experts can't agree on what that is. Given the lack of a unified standard for Simulation in general, how can we expect satisfactory FFB results from so many different approaches to physical modeling and the resulting effects(?) It is by it's very nature, an extremely complex task.

Only a small percentage of players have a wheel & pedal setup, much less BK's or motion. Detuning details from FFB is relatively easy, especially on the steering systems that produce the most detail. FFB tuning is much simpler than most people recognize. Even SimCommander FFB can be easy to tune if one focuses on the primary effects.

The bigger issue imo, comes from developers that make up their own non-sensical tuning parameters and use obscure terminology. Canned ffb-effects should always be kept separate within the UI (with enable/disable functionality) from the primary physics-based effects. This fundamental design approach should apply to both game and hardware developers.

FFB-clipping is another area where so many players are getting lost. They may tune FFB for endless hours while completely missing the fact that the real solution lies in adjusting a single force setting. Hardware limitations can also serve to exacerbate the lack of understanding regarding clipping (software vs. hardware). Direct-drive or more powerful steering-systems tend to provide much improved clarity for the user in this area.

 

[RCHeliguy]

@RaceNut considering the context of a direct drive wheelbase which people tend not to get unless they have pedals and a reasonably rigid chassis, I don't think transducers and motion are that unlikely.

I have a transducer off my upright wheel support. I run rpm and a little bit of bumps through it. That way when I do grab a shift knob or lever, I can feel the engine revving and a bit of the road texture so they feel connected to the experience. I get a bit of that in the wheel as well. It does help some.

Realistically everything has to be synergistic. The right amount of motion, vibration and FFB all feeds into immersion. It is the some of it's parts and they have to mesh well together. When they are working as a team you don't need as much of any one thing because the overall feeling is there.

I have no idea how my SC2 will impact this balance, but it will be interesting to find out.

I understand that the telemetry varies between games. Fortunately there are individual per game settings for each title. Unfortunately things also vary between cars. So the perfect frequency / rpm vibrations for one car are wrong on another.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

Interesting discussion that deserves thread of its own.
Not so sure this one is the right place for this debate.

 

[RaceNut]

@RaceNut considering the context of a direct drive wheelbase which people tend not to get unless they have pedals and a reasonably rigid chassis, I don't think transducers and motion are that unlikely.

I have a transducer off my upright wheel support. I run rpm and a little bit of bumps through it. That way when I do grab a shift knob or lever, I can feel the engine revving and a bit of the road texture so they feel connected to the experience. I get a bit of that in the wheel as well. It does help some.

Realistically everything has to be synergistic. The right amount of motion, vibration and FFB all feeds into immersion. It is the some of it's parts and they have to mesh well together. When they are working as a team you don't need as much of any one thing because the overall feeling is there.

I have no idea how my SC2 will impact this balance, but it will be interesting to find out.

I understand that the telemetry varies between games. Fortunately there are individual per game settings for each title. Unfortunately things also vary between cars. So the perfect frequency / rpm vibrations for one car are wrong on another.

I totally get the value of having other streams of feedback but, what I experience through the DD-wheel still provides the majority of really useful information while driving, the others provide some additional support and immersion.

 

[Spinelli]

Interesting discussion that deserves thread of its own.
Not so sure this one is the right place for this debate.

You're right.

I think the Fanatec wheel-side flexing in the SRG video is being over-exaggerated or happening due to a faulty item. Or maybe Barry is applying force in a way never done while driving (therefore it's irrelevant and will never happen during normal use). I don't know; all I know is I've never experienced something like that in 3 years of Fanatec-DD use.

I have a Fanatec Flat 1, BMW GT2, and Classic rim with two Universal Hubs and never have experienced any kind of flexing Barry showed. I've used high DD forces many times over the years. If my equipment flexed like that, I would not have been able to drive and would have sold it all long ago.

 

[RCHeliguy]

I totally get the value of having other streams of feedback but, what I experience through the DD-wheel still provides the majority of really useful information while driving, the others provide some additional support and immersion.

I guess I'll find out after I get a DD wheel. There is already pretty strong set of information coming to you that complete the immersion. For example in iRacing there is great audio as your tires break free, now add some tactile for the wheels sliding and a bit of motion and you have a lot of information to take in.

I still believe that motion and tactile with a CS 2.5 would give you more immersion than a direct drive without tactile and motion.

I understand that the idea behind FFB is that you feel the tires at the very edge of adhesion and can feel your way to keep control before you are in a slide or to help you get out of it. That's the "useful" information you are talking about. However we've seen that kids with a G29 can be world class sim racers and the comment has been that DD is all about immersion and not necessarily becoming a better sim racer.

Seems like a lot of contradictory information in terms of what is actually "useful".

 

[Deleted member 197115]

If it was faulty, Fanatec would say so, they only commented that new QR addressing the issue is coming and suggested to use locking bolt, which Barry did in his video, they would have known that if didn't leave the stream early.

My Buchfink Q1R is solid, I am happy, and no, I wouldn't want anything even remotely flexy as shown by Barry.
And what was the deal with oscillation in that video, is it iRacing specific problem as in AC on OSW I can get away with just gyro and 0 dampening, don't use external dampening for DR2.0, pCars2 , or rFactor2 either.

 

[RaceNut]

With SimuCube1, Oscillation is rarely an issue and even then, a very small amount of friction solves it. I agree that the amount of movement in the video would be a concern. I'd prefer Fanatec design a better QR with a backward-compatible adapter for use with older wheels.

@RCHeliguy
Immersion is a big part of why I Sim-race but, seeking ever-more immersion is an ongoing chase too. In terms of my own abilities, I'm less concerned with beating others than I am with bettering my own performance and being the best I can. There will always be those that can spank my arse with no FFB at all, no matter how hard I try. If winning was all that mattered in Sim-racing for me, I would have given up long ago.

 

[wajdi]

I think the AccuForce V2 is an underrated steering wheel system. I tried several DD system and the AccuForce with SC4 is a great piece of hardware. With rfactor2 FFB I don’t use many filters, only a little of smoother in SC and I use the high profile over the default one then you add the pricing factor( with only 999$ I got base plus the steering wheel ) and for me it’s the best deal.