Podium DD's VS Simucube 2's

[Darren Byrne]

Hi guys, the past while I was trying to find good comparisons between these two models of dd's. Has anyone tested both ? I understand that the software for these aren't complete yet but is there any clear winner here ? thanks.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

Batch 2, not rev 2. I think this is where confusion comes from.

 

[EsxPaul]

Batch 2, not rev 2. I think this is where confusion comes from.

I got that wrong. Thanks for the correction

 

[EsxPaul]

On an unhappy note, my right wrist is still not quite 100% after I hit a wall and didn't pull my hands away a little while back.

Mark, have you seen this post. Could be a way for you to lower the impact forces without losing the other details:

https://community.granitedevices.com/t/iracing-and-simucube-2/3049/267?u=esxpaul

 

[RCHeliguy]

Mark, have you seen this post. Could be a way for you to lower the impact forces without losing the other details:

https://community.granitedevices.com/t/iracing-and-simucube-2/3049/267?u=esxpaul

Yes, I'm familiar. I've changed my settings quite a bit since I tweaked my wrist and while I haven't hit a wall with my hands on the wheel since then, I've also not been spooked in any way. I'm very happy with how it is feeling.

 

[RCHeliguy]

BTW I've noticed Dirt Rally 2.0 has a specific setting for IMPACT. One guy recently posted his settings with Impact set to 10%.

 

[Blair McConachie]

I wonder how many people are actually still on the fence about a DD vs SC2 purchase?

Well after looking into all the video comparisons I could find and various wheel options I decided to take the plunge and go for a SC2 and a Ascher f28 wireless wheel. As mentioned on here it seems to be the signature wheel. I have a 330mm OMP plain wheel for rallying and then later get my 260mm caterham wheel to practice for next years season. Looking forward to trying it all out.

 

[Balroque]

I did have OSW ioni small Mige as my first DD wheel and and it was a huge upgrade from CSW 2.0, then OSW Simucube Large Mige and this was an upgrade to ultra power and more friendly adjustments; then Simucube 2 Pro and "I've got the feeling" be getting more smooth and quicker feedback. I did try DD1 as we were installing it for our customer, didn't use it for long time, and it has its pros and cons. Would need longer time to be more sure if I like it. I just got Bodnar SS2 53G, as at first impression it seems more cultivate then Simucube 2 Pro. SC2 is more raw and wild, like it got the roots from OSW history. SS2 feeling is like from Gentlemen's English club. I like it a lot, but I like the feeling from Simucube 2 Pro as well.

 

[mrbean_phillip]

@Balroque: To completely emulate the SS2 behaviour, you can set the Slew Rate filter on the SC2 between 0.1 and 0.2

Cheers,
Beano

 

[RobertR1]

@Balroque: To completely emulate the SS2 behaviour, you can set the Slew Rate filter between 0.1 and 0.2

Cheers,
Beano

Beano on RD! Welcome sir. simucube guys should pay attention.

 

[mrbean_phillip]

According to Beano, the SC2 wheelbases are a big jump from the DD wheelbases. He's considered very knowledgeable about direct drive wheelbases, but he has been working a lot with the SimuCube 2 lately so he is a biased source.

"Hi Mate,
The Podiums are not in the same ballpark wrt quality, design and processing capabilities. The powerful electronics in the Simucube2 is truly gen 2, allowing for significant improvements in FW filters to be accommodated in the next few years. Podium is at a similar level wrt processing power to the 4-year old Simucube1, but it is even further behind in filters and feel."[/wuote]

Just to get the complete story out there:

Yes, I have been involved working with Granite Devices since the Argon days, I helped them to design-spec both the Ioni, Ionicube, Simucube, and lastly, the Simucube 2. I have been beta-testing all of these long before they were released.

On a similar token, I had a f-2-f meeting with Thomas and his team from Fanatec, to discuss design considerations for their foray into DD wheels. Thomas took this step after the success of the OSW. As a result of my discussions with them during Sept 2016, Podium was born.

I received the 1st Podium DD2 beta-test out in the wild, directly from Thomas and still have it on my desk for occasional testing.

My feedback to your questions always is and will be based upon my first-hand experience. I not only consider the immediate performance, but also analyse things like the build-quality, standard of components used, and indeed, even things like micro-processor capability. It was with all those factors in consideration that I answered the question.

Some may disagree with my answer, but that hardly makes my feedback biased.

Take care guys, I will check in from time-time, feel free to ask if you have questions.

Cheers,
‘Beano

 

[mrbean_phillip]

Ha, thank you Robert, I’ve been here for a while, but not been posting much, just to many forums to go through.

PS: My wife calls me sir when she‘S annoyed with me

 

[Cote Dazur]

I still believe that motion and tactile with a CS 2.5 would give you more immersion than a direct drive without tactile and motion.

Now that you have more experience with driving with a DD wheel, is it still valid?

But the thing I noticed the most: the wheel doesn’t oscillate or over-shoot. You can take your hands off and let it unwind as you come out of a turn, and it perfectly unwinds and then stops as the wheels become straight

How does this relates to what happens in your car IRL? Is this how it works IRL?

 

[RCHeliguy]

Now that you have more experience with driving with a DD wheel, is it still valid?

It's still my personal opinion, but I have gotten more attached to my SC2 Pro as well.
Here is the rub. Your personal expectations will vary. The software you use will vary. I spend all of my track time in iRacing and I do like the extra power and the way the wheel loads up and unloads in a corner. iRacing has fantastic physics but does not have surface detail in the FFB. However they have a very good tactile telemetry so my transducer mounted to my wheel support structure adds that detail back in. I can also feel when the front tires or rear tires are starting to lose grip with the transducers in my pedals and seat. Now add the extra rumble strip bumps, and shift thunks in the seat of your pants and the engine rpm at a lumpy idle and tactile brings the car to life.

Motion handles all the larger effects and lets me feel the car when ABS kicks in. Without motion I would have no sensation of the car moving, no surge as I hit the brakes or accelerate, no side to side motion as I take corners. I tricks your brain into think you are moving.

I consider FFB, tactile and motion all critical to the immersion in VR. Without VR I don't think I would care about motion nearly as much because the immersion would be blown.

I'm also glad to see Beano in the forums here

Fanatec appears to have made some strides with their software recently and I've been reading a lot of praise from DD1/2 users saying it has improved the feel quite a bit.

I also know that software continues to be developed for the SC2 models and it is possible that there is more future capacity because of having more powerful processors. In the case of iRacing I'm adding tactile into my wheel feel using transducers. I wish they would allow that type of filtering in True Drive, but it appears they have taken a hard line against that.

 

[Cote Dazur]

iRacing has fantastic physics but does not have surface detail in the FFB. However they have a very good tactile telemetry so my transducer mounted to my wheel support structure adds that detail back in

Thank you for your reply, it confirms what I currently believe. Since I have added tactile both to my seat and wheel/pedals/shifter. I also see some SIM in a different light. Trying to feel effect in a wheel that do not belong to the wheel is, in my mind, a totally wrong approach. I will eventually upgrade to a DD wheel, because it is a better solution than non DD wheel, but probably after I get a GS-5 seat to get some G's feeling.

I consider FFB, tactile and motion all critical to the immersion in VR. Without VR I don't think I would care about motion nearly as much because the immersion would be blown.

Here too, I agree, VR is a game changer as far as immersion is concerned and for me it is all about immersion.

The SIM that bring a nice blend of physic, FFB, graphic and sound in a nicely detailed cockpit on laser scanned tracks goes along way in teleporting me in a virtual race experience.

 

[RCHeliguy]

I do feel like my SC2 Pro will last for a very long time and I know a couple people who say they wore their CSW 2.5 wheel bases out. However they spend a LOT more time racing than I do. I also love the wheels I'm using. I use my PSE GT3 wheel for almost everything and I really love that wheel.

I'm not sold on the GS-5 because it looks very uncomfortable to me. I got a shell racing seat because I needed back support after going to stronger load cell brakes. I like having the extra pressure to modulate the brakes better, but my back was hurting me after a couple hours. Now that I have a seat that fits me like a glove and supports me well, I'm not messing with it. My back feels great and I'm very comfortable while racing. I consider that more critical than what the GS-5 does.

Let me add that while I know I could chase the dragon and be on a continuous rig upgrade quest for the ultimate racing feeling, I'm very satisfied with the immersion and sensations I get.

I'm focusing on my driving now.

 

[GorillaJones]

Thank you for your reply, it confirms what I currently believe. Since I have added tactile both to my seat and wheel/pedals/shifter. I also see some SIM in a different light. Trying to feel effect in a wheel that do not belong to the wheel is, in my mind, a totally wrong approach. I will eventually upgrade to a DD wheel, because it is a better solution than non DD wheel, but probably after I get a GS-5 seat to get some G's feeling.



Here too, I agree, VR is a game changer as far as immersion is concerned and for me it is all about immersion.

The SIM that bring a nice blend of physic, FFB, graphic and sound in a nicely detailed cockpit on laser scanned tracks goes along way in teleporting me in a virtual race experience.

This is as immersive as VR, ask me how I know.

 

[Chrhun]

It that with a seat mover? The seat moves independently of the wheel it seems?

 

[GorillaJones]

It that with a seat mover? The seat moves independently of the wheel it seems?

Nope, the entire 2 person cockpit moves. D-Box 4 x

 

[Spinelli]

How does this relates to what happens in your car IRL? Is this how it works IRL?

It's extremely unrealistic.

I've heard from multiple FFB gurus (in the official iRacing, RF2, and Granity Simucube forums) that this issue, as well as others, is going to be very difficult to fix until the fundamental FFB method/technology itself changes to a more realistic method. For example:

1. FFB uses a velocity and/or position based control rather than torque based (torque-based control, or possibly a combination, would be more realistic but more complex to implement)
2. real-life "FFB" is simply a passive/reactive system while videogame FFB is an active system (while a fully passive system may be impossible to implement, there are university engineering studies experimenting with "semi-passive" steering systems)
3. FFB is still using the very dated Microsoft DirectInput which has it's own limitations besides the previous 2 points and was never designed with such powerful, fast, accelerative FFB wheels/motors in mind.

It'll probably be ages until any of those 3 points above change/improve (if I had to guess, I'd say the first step will be dropping Microsoft DirectInput) therefore what I proposed to Granity are the following FFB filters:

• a sort of S.A.T. "steering auto-correct" force filter
• a FFB output sensitivity/linearity filter relative to the vehicle's "steering force." Granity will be releasing a filter called "non-linear force saturation" soon which, from the sounds of it, is an overall FFB output sensitivity/linearity filter. This, while not the same as the one I proposed, would still be very welcomed and helpful in my opinion. In fact, I can't wait until Granity releases this so I can lower the FFB sensitivity/linearity especially for certain cars/games.

Unfortunately, the 2 filters I proposed above would almost certainly need telemetry-based FFB to be applied properly (Granity confirmed this) which is not available ATM. BTW, don't confuse the SC2's "static force reduction" filter with the 2 I proposed - not the same.

 

[TheNatural]

I'm about to bite the bullet and take the plunge into the world of direct drive and I am really torn between the two options. My biggest issue with the SC2 is the price of decent wheels. I've heald the Fanatec Porsche GT3 podium wheel in my hands and it felt great. That plus the DD2 would end up being cheaper than getting a SC2 Pro and a decent GT3 wheel. I want to avoid an open wheel style rim for as long as possible since I drive a variety of cars in a variety of games.

Whenever I start to think that the SC2 is the way to go the costs seem to creep up. Want wireless? Another 200 on top of the 900 for the wheel. Want this wheel? Well you need a QR and a mount and you may need to wire it differently.

I can't be the only person that wants to find a balance between the hobby of building and tweaking a setup and actually spending time in the seat right?

After watching the video with the austrian guy on the DD2 vs the SC2 Ultimate it just sent me back to square one.