Podium DD's VS Simucube 2's

[Darren Byrne]

Hi guys, the past while I was trying to find good comparisons between these two models of dd's. Has anyone tested both ? I understand that the software for these aren't complete yet but is there any clear winner here ? thanks.

 

[RCHeliguy]

I have mounted my emergency stop button and one power supply mounted.

 

[AlexN]

Two weeks into my Fanatec RMA odyssey for my busted DD2:

Fanatec has received my DD2. They were quite specific that I send it via the cheapest and slowest option (UPS Ground, in my case), and are now complaining that the box arrived damaged. I packed the parts inside pretty well, not sure why they care about the box so much. UPS damaging a package?! Unheard of

They're also complaining that the sides of the DD2 have cosmetic scratches. Maybe don't put cheap faux-carbon fiber plastic panels on the sides of a high-end wheel base, especially when it's intended to mount snugly into a (in all likelihood) metal cockpit. Between those plastic side panels, and the little bits of cosmetic aluminum that stick out for no reason (making the surface not flat), the pessimist in me thinks they did this on purpose to make it hard to side-mount the DD2 without paying extra for their special Podium mount.

Anyway, it's my DD2, I can scratch it if I want to. I was upset when it got scratched. Not relevant to it suddenly breaking. Every email exchange with Fanatec adds a couple days to the RMA process and seems designed to discourage contacting them.

 

[RCHeliguy]

@AlexN I'm sorry to hear about your issues with Fanatec. I'm not in anyway suggesting that I would have preferred to have a DD1/2 wheel. I'm sure the SC2 Pro will give me good service over many years and I love how the PSE wheel feels and works compared to either my Fanatec Porsche 918 or McLaren GT3 wheel.

I think I would have been really pissed off if I had gotten a DD2 and barely felt anything.

I'm not giving up hope that I'll find better settings or start noticing more detail with my SC2 Pro. Based on the night and day responses some people have had, I'm still thinking there has to be something there that I just haven't found.

 

[Emery]

Yes, I feel that until some fundamental FFB technologies are improved/changed from how they've been since the 1990s (if not before)

LOL... you're a bit out of touch with simracing history.

Microsoft Sidewinder gameport was the first FFB wheel, 13 Aug 1997. There may have been others before, but nothing with universal support. It was really only designed to have vibration effects as basing FFB on steering rack force didn't happen until RealFeel for rF1 came out in 2007. First public iRacing appearance was in 2008, 4 years after the company founding.

So... current FFB technology really dates from 2007 as RealFeel WAS a fundamental improvement from the prior decade!

Frex direct drive wheel appeared in 2008. ECCI Trackstar 7000 was 2010. Leo Bodnar released his paper on why current FFB doesn't work in 2011. Leo Bodnar SimSteering System in 2013. SimXperience Accuforce wheel in 2013.

 

[AlexN]

@AlexN I'm sorry to hear about your issues with Fanatec. I'm not in anyway suggesting that I would have preferred to have a DD1/2 wheel. I'm sure the SC2 Pro will give me good service over many years and I love how the PSE wheel feels and works compared to either my Fanatec Porsche 918 or McLaren GT3 wheel.

I think I would have been really pissed off if I had gotten a DD2 and barely felt anything.

I'm not giving up hope that I'll find better settings or start noticing more detail. Base on the night and day responses some people have had, I'm still thinking there has to be something there that I just haven't found.

No need to be sorry! I'm just venting (and laughing, too!) at my DD2 experience

And because this is a DD vs SC2 thread, I'm hoping my experience may be helpful to anyone considering the DD for the warranty and/or customer service to know what that process looks like. I know that was one of the factors that led me to the Fanatec ecosystem originally, and why I bought a DD2 without thinking much about other direct drive wheels. It doesn't seem to be much of a benefit in practice, though.

It's also hard to find comparisons of the DD and SC2 from folks who have used both. @nerdthewise just switched from a DD2 to an SC2 as well, he should have his up and running soon and can offer another comparison point.

The DD2 isn't bad, but in hindsight it feels like a mistake given the existence of the SC2.

I'm hopeful you'll find some decent settings. 30 minutes of tweaking and it felt like a completely different wheel. I imagine a downside to the flexibility is there's probably no consensus on good settings. As I mentioned in the other thread, though, it's possible you may get it "perfect" and still be underwhelmed, as I was at first with the DD2. Strangely, it grew on me over time.

 

[RCHeliguy]

I'm not suggesting there is not important information being sent. Either I'm not sensitized to notice it yet, or I still need to play around with my settings.

I think I'm just going to go back to training on Imola for the week put in a bunch of laps with it and see what happens.

 

[Spinelli]

LOL... you're a bit out of touch with simracing history.

Microsoft Sidewinder gameport was the first FFB wheel, 13 Aug 1997. There may have been others before, but nothing with universal support. It was really only designed to have vibration effects as basing FFB on steering rack force didn't happen until RealFeel for rF1 came out in 2007. First public iRacing appearance was in 2008, 4 years after the company founding.

So... current FFB technology really dates from 2007 as RealFeel WAS a fundamental improvement from the prior decade!

Frex direct drive wheel appeared in 2008. ECCI Trackstar 7000 was 2010. Leo Bodnar released his paper on why current FFB doesn't work in 2011. Leo Bodnar SimSteering System in 2013. SimXperience Accuforce wheel in 2013.

I have no idea why you gave me a list of release dates for different wheels and games. I never said those games or wheels don't exist nor am I disputing their release dates, lol.

Sorry, your wrong. Fundamental FFB technology has not changed. 1) FFB is still based on microsoft's direct-input which, if it didn't come out in the 90s then it was the very, very early 2000s. 2) FFB is still purely position/velocity-based rather than torque-based like real-life. 3) FFB is still purely an active system rather than reactive/passive like real-life.

No offense but it seems like you and the people who agreed with you are lacking understanding on the subject. This has nothing to do with Realfeel nor iRacing nor the release date of a bunch of wheels you listed.

By the way, even though Realfeel has nothing to do with what I was saying, rfactor (thanks to RealFeel in 2007) wasn't the first ever game that generated it's FFB based on the steering rack. NetKar Pro (2006), Live for Speed (2003) both did before. Netkar Namie (2001 or 2002) & NR2003 may also do that. So, no, rFactor/RealFeel is definitely not the first time a game generated FFB from the steering column therefore your statement about Realfeel driving FFB forward from the decade before is simply wrong.

Not only that, but steering-column forces are just a different way (a better way most would agree) that game designers calculate FFB inside their game. It has nothing to do with the fundamental technology itself of FFB.

In response to your "LOL... you're a bit out of touch with simracing history." No, it looks like you are.

 

[Emery]

By the way, even though Realfeel has nothing to do with what I was saying, rfactor (thanks to RealFeel in 2007) wasn't the first ever game that generated it's FFB based on the steering rack. NetKar Pro (2006), Live for Speed (2003) both did before. Netkar Namie (2001 or 2002) & NR2003 may also do that.

Thanks for that info. Was not aware of LFS and NKPro's history.

Pretty certain, though, that FFB output to Sidewinder was not position-based in terms of force. Yes, position was read from it, but the FFB sent to the Sidewinder was just rumble and other vibrations while relying on the user-set spring & damper force (usually an in-game setting combined with the control panel setting). There was, in essence, no clipping because there was no change in signal though slightly more sophisticated software might decrease the force to indicate understeer. Just for grins, I'll fire up something old to remind myself how generic FFB was before RealFeel.

Steering rack vs. steering column? What's the difference? All I can think of are the subtle angular velocity changes when there are u-joints in the steering column (which I know is accounted for in rF2 if the physics builder takes the time, but don't know if other sims do so).

The point of listing the various release dates for the wheels is that the capability to even make use of a better FFB model was never available until 2008 and the price point for mass acceptance of such a model is still not possible. That is why you aren't seeing the great advance you're hoping for.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

NFS Porsche Unleashed FFB was a blast back in 2000. Purchased my first FFB wheel just for that title.

EDIT: Looks that even NFS II from 1997 had FFB.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_PC_games_with_force_feedback_support#Racing

 

[sfdmalex]

NFS Porsche Unleashed FFB was a blast back in 2000. Purchased my first FFB wheel just for that title.

EDIT: Looks that even NFS II from 1997 had FFB.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_PC_games_with_force_feedback_support#Racing

oh man, that brings back memories.

I had a ton of fun in that, correct me if I'm wrong but the physics weren't actually too bad, it was a game 100% but it had a little simy vibe to it.

 

[EsxPaul]

 

[Blair McConachie]

Hello everyone, my first post on here!

I am currently looking to upgrade my sim racing setup and I have been reading / watching as much as I can about the SC2 pro and podium DD wheels.

Currently I have a T300RS but with fanatec csl elite LC pedals, SQ 1.5 shifter all mounted on a next level wheel stand. So plenty of room to upgrade. I race a caterham in real life in a one make series in the UK and I'm looking to get as much realistic practice on UK tracks as I can to help in my real life racing season. Also I do enjoy sim racing in general and like the gt3 / formula cars too. I currently use AC and PC2 to practice. But enjoy Dirt 2.0 / F1 2019 / ACC as well.

Its the winter break and I have decided to upgrade, the only item I have decided I definitely want is the Heusinkveld sprint pedals which I have just placed an order for. I couldn't get on with the CSL pedals for heel and toe due to not being able to adjust the pedals angle / start point.

I am reasonably sure I want a sim lab gt1 evo rig. But I cant decide on a wheel. A month ago I was almost certain I wanted a DD2 with a BMW GT2 rim and a formula V2 and that would cover me for both types of driving I enjoy.

However, seeing the QR movement issues from SRG videos has given me some doubt (although many have said their wheel has no issues), the other issues are the oscillations and general posts about the SC2 delivering a better overall experience.

Most recommendations on here are for SC2 but I cant see how to replicate the V2 / BMW GT wheels without a massive increase in cost which I cant afford. I'm also encouraged by fanatecs response to the SRG video where they say a new podium QR is coming and also they have updated software to reduce the oscillation problem.

I think the DD series might be in its infancy and I am hoping Fanatec react to the release of the SC2 and try and iron out some of these issues that must be affecting sales.

Should I wait it out a few more months before diving in?

 

[RobertR1]

If you have a large set of fanatic rims you want to re use the, get the podium. If not, I can’t think of anyone who has tried both and preferred a DD.

you can also hop on simucube forums and get direct access to the developers. the pace of development on the sc2 software seems way ahead.

 

[Blair McConachie]

@RobertR1 I dont have any fanatec rims at present. But I do like the look of the formula V2 as a wheel with the podium paddles. I even thought about getting the PS4 podium version just to get a good deal (essentially a DD1 and the formula V2 with paddle module all in one) even though I wouldnt use it on a PS4. To get a similar wheel from Ascher with rotary switches / paddles / funky switches etc would be approx €1000 / $1000.

I'm kind of doing this on a budget as my actually motorsport is so expensive anyway. I agree the SC2 is the best wheel base, but for the money I would have to spend to get two wheels to replicate the BMW GT2 and Forumula V2 of fanatec it puts it out of my price range.

Coming from a t300 I guess I would probably be happy with a DD1 / DD2 (as long as I never try a sc2!) and the fanatec wheels. I'm just going to hold off for a few months to see how the software updates from both wheel base suppliers improve their products.

I would welcome any further opinions of anyone who has tried both wheel bases, and which wheels they used.

 

[Hiro Abe]

I don't have a dd though have been researching myself and pretty much settled on an SC2 and this is coming from a Fanatec fanboy. From what I've been reading and the fact that GD has been at the dd game longer than Fanatec has led me down the SC2 path.

I will say this in hopes this posting is of some help: I have Fanatec's Formula v2 wheel and installed the Podium shifter module. It really makes for a sweet bit of kit at a relatively reasonable price. My only knock on it - and this is totally from personal preference and nothing to do with the quality of the wheel - is that the wheel diameter is a bit too small for me. Something about the smaller diameter makes my hands uncomfortable, almost to the point of cramping. I raced with it for a bit to see if I could physically adjust but doesn't seem to be happening. I just went back to my McLaren wheel and it simply feels more comfortable to me. Again, that's me. Otherwise, I have zero issues/complaints about the Formula wheel especially kitted up with the Podium shifters.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Something about the smaller diameter makes my hands uncomfortable, almost to the point of cramping. I raced with it for a bit to see if I could physically adjust but doesn't seem to be happening. I just went back to my McLaren wheel and it simply feels more comfortable to me. Again, that's me. Otherwise, I have zero issues/complaints about the Formula wheel especially kitted up with the Podium shifters.

I've heard that comment a number of times. What I've heard is that the quality of the F1 wheel is very good but it's small and the Mclaren feels better you your hands, but wish the quality was as nice as the F1 wheel. I used a McLaren rim with the SRM shifters (which made all the difference for me) and was pretty happy with it. My only complaint is that the button covers won't stay on and are very easy to knock off, but that didn't keep me from enjoying the wheel.

 

[Blair McConachie]

@Hiro Abe thats at least encouraging to hear that you enjoyed the V2 and thought it was a good quality wheel. I dont think the smaller size will be an issue for me (i hope) as my race caterham has a 260mm momo rim and I am used to small wheels. Its a different shape grip though for the formula so that might cause the discomfort.

I am thinking of just buying another 260mm momo rim to get the realism to replicate my race car (the main reason I am doing all this is for practice in the off season). This would work well with the sc2. But for enjoyment of sim racing in general in ACC or other sims with cars that need adjustments to be made I am struggling to see a good value match for the V2. I am wondering if I need the higher torque of the DD2 as the ps4 DD1 package (essentially a DD1 with formula V2 and podium shifters) is a really good package price. To replicate that with the SC2 would be another $1000 / €1000 to get a non wireless solution.

 

[bluey]

@Hiro Abe thats at least encouraging to hear that you enjoyed the V2 and thought it was a good quality wheel. I dont think the smaller size will be an issue for me (i hope) as my race caterham has a 260mm momo rim and I am used to small wheels. Its a different shape grip though for the formula so that might cause the discomfort.

I am thinking of just buying another 260mm momo rim to get the realism to replicate my race car (the main reason I am doing all this is for practice in the off season). This would work well with the sc2. But for enjoyment of sim racing in general in ACC or other sims with cars that need adjustments to be made I am struggling to see a good value match for the V2. I am wondering if I need the higher torque of the DD2 as the ps4 DD1 package (essentially a DD1 with formula V2 and podium shifters) is a really good package price. To replicate that with the SC2 would be another $1000 / €1000 to get a non wireless solution.

Hi Blair check out [Race Beyond Matter] Vids on You Tube he has used both DD WHEELS.. and may help you make a decision..

 

[metalnwood]

@Blair McConachie I understand the thinking between the fanatec and the SC2.

The rims you can easily get with fanatec is a great selling point.

The only other rim that I know of that is not in the higher price point of some of the others is this one https://augurysimulations.com/producto/f1s-eng/ 290mm makes it a pretty good formula/gt3 rim

 

[Blair McConachie]

@metalnwood thanks that makes things a lot more interesting. It looks a good quality rim from first impressions. I see that SRG has reviews of both this and the V2, looking forward to watching them when I get home.