Podium DD's VS Simucube 2's

[Darren Byrne]

Hi guys, the past while I was trying to find good comparisons between these two models of dd's. Has anyone tested both ? I understand that the software for these aren't complete yet but is there any clear winner here ? thanks.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Either the DD2 or SC2 can be cheaper or more expensive depending on your wheel selections.

With the DD2 if you run Fanatec wheels, it is less expensive to stick with Fanatec, vs. replacing the wheels or buying adapters for them.

With the SC2 it is less expensive if you want some of the nicer wheels that are available for it. The SC2 Wheel side QR are inexpensive and all the wheels bolt up to either the 50.8 or 70mm plates. I'm perfectly happy with the SC2 QR. It feels solid to me.

I'm with you on the closed wheel. I got a high quality GT3 wheel with great paddle shifters and high quality buttons and a couple knobs. I use it for everything except rally and I have no interest in an open wheel at this time. Everyone does things differently. Some people have a huge collection of custom wheels. Do what works for you. This isn't about pleasing everyone else.

I spent the better part of 2019 working on my rig and didn't do very much racing. Some people get into the build, and constant experimentation and upgrading as its own hobby. Now I'm done with my rig at least for now and focusing on racing. Do what's right for you. If you feel like you are spending too much time working on your rig, than stop working on your rig for a while.

Do what's fun! If you are stressing about what to buy next and what you have now works, wait. At some point you will probably come to stronger opinion one way or the other.

 

[TheNatural]

Either the DD2 or SC2 can be cheaper or more expensive depending on your wheel selections.

With the DD2 if you run Fanatec wheels, it is less expensive to stick with Fanatec, vs. replacing the wheels or buying adapters for them.

With the SC2 it is less expensive if you want some of the nicer wheels that are available for it. The SC2 Wheel side QR are inexpensive and all the wheels bolt up to either the 50.8 or 70mm plates. I'm perfectly happy with the SC2 QR. It feels solid to me.

I'm with you on the closed wheel. I got a high quality GT3 wheel with great paddle shifters and high quality buttons and a couple knobs. I use it for everything except rally and I have no interest in an open wheel at this time. Everyone does things differently. Some people have a huge collection of custom wheels. Do what works for you. This isn't about pleasing everyone else.

I spent the better part of 2019 working on my rig and didn't do very much racing. Some people get into the build, and constant experimentation and upgrading as its own hobby. Now I'm done with my rig at least for now and focusing on racing. Do what's right for you. If you feel like you are spending too much time working on your rig, than stop working on your rig for a while.

Do what's fun! If you are stressing about what to buy next and what you have now works, wait. At some point you will probably come to stronger opinion one way or the other.

Thanks for the reply, things just got a bit more interesting for me this morning. Looks like Simlab just dropped a mount designed for the Simcubes/Leos: https://sim-lab.eu/product/gt1-evo-direct-drive-mount/ My GT1 Evo is arriving today. The fanatec brackets were pushing me in that direction. It's also looking like the price of a DD2+GT3 rim would be around the the same as a SC2 Pro+CubcontrolsWireless GT Pro.

If i recall correctly from reading the thread you're using a Simcube, correct? What GT wheel are you currently running with it? I know nothing about the SC quickreleases. I don't even know if the cubecontrols wheel I'm looking at would work. Would I have to buy the wheel side of the QR for every new wheel?

My choices right now are down to this: DD2+GT3 Podium rim+GT1 Evo Fanatec Bracket or the SC2 Pro+GT Wheel (if I can find one that I like)+Simlab SC Bracket.

Edit: Also forgive my lack of knowledge on the subject, but if I choose to go with a wired wheel for the Simcube, the wheel itself would need to be connected via USB directly to my PC? It is so hard to find basic information like this. I have my PC decently far away from my rig and use a custom built powered USB hub and I would probably need to get another 10m active cable just for the wheel. Damn. I sort of thought the wheel would connect to the SC2. Am I wrong on this?

 

[RCHeliguy]

When you order an SC2 wheelbase you can order a number of wheel side quick releases with them. They are about $60 or 55 Euro each. One is included with the wheelbase. I'm using one of the pricer GT3 options from Precision Sim Engineering. I've heard good things about the Cube Controls wheels and Ascher and HRS.

I got this one.

GT3 racing simulator steering wheel — Precision Sim Engineering

Our lightweight 310mm wheel is versatile when it comes to virtual racing. Suitable for any simulator. This wheel may look basic, but it is anything but. The GT3 wheel shares many features with our more complex wheels. Compatible with a variety of simulator systems, the GT3 wheel connects to a PC or

www.precisionsimengineering.com

It also comes in wireless.

GT3 Wireless steering wheel — Precision Sim Engineering

Using low latency wireless technology this wheel gets you straight onto the grid. There is no need to pair, as the GT3 Wireless wheel comes supplied with pre-paired USB receivers. Simply plug and play. At the press of a button you can check your battery level and use its retractable USB cable to ch

www.precisionsimengineering.com

Pick what you like. I fell in love with this wheel and love it, but many people feel that way about many wheels. This is just what I wanted. PSE wheels all have about a 4 week wait.

 

[John Bruno]

Maybe a basic question but for those that have switched from a Fanatec DD to Simcube 2 is anyone missing the rumble motors in the wheels? I rather enjoy the subtle vibration from the wheel in addition to multiple transducers adding to the whole experience.

 

[traind]

It's extremely unrealistic.

I've heard from multiple FFB gurus (in the official iRacing, RF2, and Granity Simucube forums) that this issue, as well as others, is going to be very difficult to fix until the fundamental FFB method/technology itself changes to a more realistic method. For example:

1. FFB uses a velocity and/or position based control rather than torque based (torque-based control, or possibly a combination, would be more realistic but more complex to implement)
2. real-life "FFB" is simply a passive/reactive system while videogame FFB is an active system (while a fully passive system may be impossible to implement, there are university engineering studies experimenting with "semi-passive" steering systems)
3. FFB is still using the very dated Microsoft DirectInput which has it's own limitations besides the previous 2 points and was never designed with such powerful, fast, accelerative FFB wheels/motors in mind.

It'll probably be ages until any of those 3 points above change/improve (if I had to guess, I'd say the first step will be dropping Microsoft DirectInput) therefore what I proposed to Granity are the following FFB filters:

• a sort of S.A.T. "steering auto-correct" force filter
• a FFB output sensitivity/linearity filter relative to the vehicle's "steering force." Granity will be releasing a filter called "non-linear force saturation" soon which, from the sounds of it, is an overall FFB output sensitivity/linearity filter. This, while not the same as the one I proposed, would still be very welcomed and helpful in my opinion. In fact, I can't wait until Granity releases this so I can lower the FFB sensitivity/linearity especially for certain cars/games.

Unfortunately, the 2 filters I proposed above would almost certainly need telemetry-based FFB to be applied properly (Granity confirmed this) which is not available ATM. BTW, don't confuse the SC2's "static force reduction" filter with the 2 I proposed - not the same.

Spinelli, did you ever purchase the SC2 Pro? As I remember you had an accuforce and were hoping to make the change. If you did, I would love to hear your impressions versus the accuforce since I own one and have not been able to test an SC2 Pro.

 

[jooeeyy]

Maybe a basic question but for those that have switched from a Fanatec DD to Simcube 2 is anyone missing the rumble motors in the wheels? I rather enjoy the subtle vibration from the wheel in addition to multiple transducers adding to the whole experience.

I have switched from a csl elite to an Accuforce v2, and I miss them. Before that I didn't even knew that the fanatec steering wheel had rumble motors and tought that the wheel base itself produced those gear shift effects. The multiple bass shakers in my rig kind of make up for the missing rumble motor on the steering wheel.

 

[John Bruno]

Thanks for confirming Jooeeyy. I'm one of the guys sitting on the fence between DD and SC2, it seems it may be a matter of time before Fanatec software catches up (or at least I hope so) with SC2 and although I'd love nothing more than to hold a couple of high end wheels I mainly use VR, it would be lost on me. The picture is starting to clear up.....

 

[RCHeliguy]

Thanks for confirming Jooeeyy. I'm one of the guys sitting on the fence between DD and SC2, it seems it may be a matter of time before Fanatec software catches up (or at least I hope so) with SC2 and although I'd love nothing more than to hold a couple of high end wheels I mainly use VR, it would be lost on me. The picture is starting to clear up.....

WOAH THERE!

I only sim in VR and that makes the ergonomics of the wheel MORE important.

You are right that things like LCD displays are worthless in VR, but how well a wheel's controls are organized, the quality of the controls and the 3D surfaces around the controls make a HUGE difference in VR.

I fell in love with my PSE GT3 wheel because of how great it works in VR. I had both the Fanatec Porsche 918 wheel and McLaren GT3 wheel. The switch gear on my PSE wheel feels MUCH better. I installed SRM magnetic shifters on the McLaren and it helped, but the buttons on that wheel are not the greatest. Neither is the rest of the switch gear.

The PSE wheel has great shifters, great buttons, the best rotaries I've ever felt. It also has 3D shaped edges around the buttons so I can easily tell them apart while I'm in VR.

I do not care to own a different wheel for each car, but I know this one wheel very well and love it. Believe it or not I purchased my wheel first and then ordered my SC2 Pro.

I thought my Fanatec Porsche wheel was good, but this PSE wheel is on a whole different level.

 

[Mr Latte]

£1100 for a wireless rim = OUCH - NEEDS TO BE VERY GOOD!!!

That level is just going too far for most sim racers requirements or what really we should have to pay to get a great quality wheel rim for. The new Fanatec Porsche GT3 Podium rim offers a lot more for a lot less, even if its not as "PRO" in its engineering quality. I certainly don't see it being that much less engaging.

 

[RCHeliguy]

£1100 for a wireless rim = OUCH - NEEDS TO BE VERY GOOD!!!

That level is just going too far for most sim racers requirements or what really we should have to pay to get a great quality wheel rim for. The new Fanatec Porsche GT3 Podium rim offers a lot more for a lot less, even if its not as "PRO" in its engineering quality. I certainly don't see it being that much less engaging.

I didn't get the wireless version.

It feels great and since it is my go to wheel for everything but rally, I thought I would get exactly what I wanted. It's very comfortable in my hands at 9 and 3 and the wheel should last me a lifetime. It's not suede or leather. It's an industrial CF carbon look vinyl. It's very grippy with or without gloves.

310mm feels perfect to me.

Everyone has their own taste and I'm not saying it is a perfect fit for everyone out there, but for me it is perfect. I took a gamble since I never felt it in my hands before I ordered it, but everything about it just looked right.

Most sim racers also don't have direct drive wheels, motion, tactile, etc... So it's sort of pointless to start questioning spending a few hundred more on something nice that is THE main interface between you and driving.

 

[Mr Latte]

I didn't get the wireless version.

It feels great and since it is my go to wheel for everything but rally, I thought I would get exactly what I wanted. It's very comfortable in my hands at 9 and 3 and the wheel should last me a lifetime. It's not suede or leather. It's an industrial CF carbon look vinyl. It's very grippy with or without gloves.

310mm feels perfect to me.

Everyone has their own taste and I'm not saying it is a perfect fit for everyone out there, but for me it is perfect. I took a gamble since I never felt it in my hands before I ordered it, but everything about it just looked right.

Most sim racers also don't have direct drive wheels, motion, tactile, etc... So it's sort of pointless to start questioning spending a few hundred more on something nice that is THE main interface between you and driving.

I didn't say you had spent £1100 on the wireless version, not at all, as you made it clear what you did buy. You don't need to justify your own purchase either. The point I raised was that for a "wheel rim" and as (personal opinion) that is a crazy amount of money to spend. The Sparco 310 rim it seems based on is at most £200. So that's quite a lot extra for a few knobs/buttons, shifters and luxury of a wireless feature.

As its a Vs thread based on two competitive wheels and potential necessary options. I think most people can see the greater value yet still high quality in a Porsche GT3 Rim with a Fanatec wheelbase and even the option to buy both the leather and alcantara finishes to swap over whenever wanted.

This is one of the problems if choosing the Simucube 2 path, additional rims are also likely going to cost more money too and quite a premium if you want some of the best. In comparison, the Porsche GT3 rim (to me) looks a bargain (in comparison) when considering what each offers.

Motorsport quality comes at a price....

 

[TheNatural]

This is one of the problems if choosing the Simucube 2 path, additional rims are also likely going to cost more money too and quite a premium if you want some of the best.

I thought similarly but at least for a European buyer it's sort of a wash. 1200 for the Sc2 Pro compared to 1500 for the DD2. The porsche Podium wheel is 650 and the PSE GT3 is 880. You're saving a little money going with the SC2+PSE wheel. It's not wireless, but it seems to not be an issue for most users. Outside of that you can get wireless button boxes+sparco rim of your choice for less than the PSE. It's just really hard to find all of this information when looking at the two. I haven't made the purchase yet and I am still on the fence between the two when I am up late at night.

Right now, given all I've heard, it seems the consensus is the SC2 Pro feels better (read: smoother, more accurate, better definition, etc) in the big titles like AC, iRacing, and ACC than the DD series from Fanatec.

When you look at them side-by-side the SC2 Pro+A bonkers handmade wheel for the same price as a DD2+Podium GT3 wheel makes the SC2 Pro edge out the Fanatec offering.

I also don't know the details but one of the reasons I'm leaning towards the SC2 is the processors seem more future proof than the older DD2 tech. I might have read wrongly, however.

 

[RCHeliguy]

The SC2 is supposed to have more powerful processors. the SC2 ultimate even more so.

Now that Fanatec and Granite State have released their hardware, we have a software arms race.

Fanatec recently released new software that is supposed to improve FFB.
New and improved filters on the way for the SC2 as well.

The software side of this is just as important as having good hardware. It does look like the SC2 has more processing power to work with and they should have more experience building these filters using less powerful processing, so hopefully they are maximizing what they now have.

Frankly I think people get used to whatever they have.

 

[RCHeliguy]

This is one of the problems if choosing the Simucube 2 path, additional rims are also likely going to cost more money too and quite a premium if you want some of the best.

You realize that is a double edged sword because if you want some of the best rims, you will need to spend even more money for an adapter from Fanatec for each of those rims making them even more expensive.

The Porsche Podium wheel looks good, but not great. Fanatec makes some good wheels at their price points, but there are better out there.

BTW the PSE rim is not just an off the shelf Sparco rim. It has thicker metal and a custom grip.

We appear to have very different priorities, which is fine. I've seen people with very expensive motion systems with Thrustmaster controls mounted. You've got a tactile system that appears worth as much or more than the rest of your rig.

 

[Furnace Inferno]

Oh wow, I didn’t realise the podium wheel was still made of plastic!! I was considering switching out my AFV2 for the DD2 for more power once they updated the QR but nope the cheap materials and buttons they use in some areas to cut costs I can’t go back to and the Podium line clearly isn’t going to change that which is a shame.

Not to say they are bad I’m just wanting something a little higher end build quality wise, guess I’ll stick for now.

 

[Jaaba]

I thought similarly but at least for a European buyer it's sort of a wash. 1200 for the Sc2 Pro compared to 1500 for the DD2.

Where do you find the SC2 Pro for 1200€, including VAT? I’ve found that price only without VAT. The quoted DD2 price has VAT included.

 

[Vunnible]

£1100 for a wireless rim = OUCH - NEEDS TO BE VERY GOOD!!!

That level is just going too far for most sim racers requirements or what really we should have to pay to get a great quality wheel rim for. The new Fanatec Porsche GT3 Podium rim offers a lot more for a lot less, even if its not as "PRO" in its engineering quality. I certainly don't see it being that much less engaging.

The Porsche wheel release is actually what pushed me to sell my entire DD1 rig this week. In order to activate the button module and OLED screen, you have to update to the brand new drivers and firmware that are also fanatec’s first foray into reconstruction filtering. And it appears that software is still in beta phase. There are a number of issues with the new software, including a metallic ‘clunk’ sound every time you power down, random FFB jerks in some titles (I experienced the clunk but not the jerks), and, in my case, a bug where if you happen to switch to compatibility 2.5 mode with Fanalab open, all hell breaks loose. I could no longer run Fanalab with any sim without a blue screen of death pc crash. With Fanalab closed, lag spikes occurred every few seconds where wheel/shifter/pedal inputs would go unnoticed. The bug appears to be ‘permanent,’ in that it only goes away with a revert to the previous driver, which, as I mentioned, isn’t capable of running the podium Porsche wheel. Countless attempts to rollback and reinstall new drivers, deleting all profiles/data with clean installs were fruitless. So my $650 wheel (with plastic housing) is on the shelf until fanatec fixes their drivers, which tends to take quite some time.

And unfortunately, the rumor that they often fix one thing and break another is true in my experience. They seem to be more focused on adding new, marketable features than getting the ones already there to work correctly. Just by looking at it, the GD software looks to be way more polished at this point.

I had many good moments with my DD1 and gave fanatec a very fair shake, but after 9 months of waiting for the next driver to live up to its hype the Porsche cluster was the last straw for me.

Also, yes $800-$1200 is a lot for a wheel rim, but at least they all seem to work as advertised, and the fanatec rims all seem to start creaking at some point with such high torque, which completely breaks immersion for me.

This is just my experience. There are many who are having no issues. I’m just sharing mine as someone who knows pc hardware/software quite well and that, in my case, fanatec seems to be the less plug and play option. My SC2 pro arrives tomorrow!

Edit: If you want to read up on the issues associated with new fanatec drivers just take a gander here:

https://forum.fanatec.com/discussio...pdate-for-podium-bases-all-steering-wheels/p2

https://forum.fanatec.com/discussio...ce-software-package-v1-2-incl-instructions/p2

FanaLab 1.23 beta Download - Post your Feedback here - Page 2

https://forum.fanatec.com/discussion/comment/36941#Comment_36941 I read all and did exactly as described.

forum.fanatec.com

 

[Mr Latte]

@Vunnible thanks for the very detailed report, its good to get user feedback. Will read over this carefully, so appreciate the time you took on this. Oh and please, do keep us posted on your new wheel experience.

I would be a casual player, not one that will get involved in leagues or anything. Yet I am the type of person that enjoys owning or experiencing things that are to a good level of quality. Lots of people on these forums are rather fortunate to be able to even consider some of the products that are available and at these price-points. "Sim-Racing" in recent years has quickly escalated in price and range of options.

I can't speak for others but part of me just thinks, all this costs more than I feel I want to spend. Its a BIG decision to make and one I want to be certain I choose the right thing and something I will enjoy but also have little trouble with.

For me, I need a new wheel, new rim(s) and new pedals. Yet for all this, it looks like these are going to be closer to £3000 to get a level of quality that is offering the best build and performance.

That's a lot just for input controls but I can understand the perspective, do I spend about 30% less and make do with something that may not be as good, yet maybe something that I then want to upgrade from and eventually having to bite the bullet on the "Big Boys Toys" anyways?

Fanatec seem to of stepped up but still cutting corners. Yes it looks like the software and drivers still need to mature more. I don't want to be a beta tester with headaches and at this price level of hardware. Then again, the enthusiast stuff seems to of been moving more towards professional motorsport hardware and even it can have issues. As consumers, I think we all are more demanding on what we expect and tolerate these days but then again as prices go to these levels we should be getting hardware that operates as expected and performs brilliantly with no issues.

 

[Vunnible]

I agree with most of your points. I don’t expect flawless performance. I really just want a competent staff who responds to users within a day or so when they do have issues, even without a solution. Particularly regarding RMA’s, as I’ve heard users getting silence for several days - a nightmare when you’ve just lost your baby. And I want less of a “f*ck it, we’ll do it live!” approach to pre-release. Example: The clunking power down issue seems to be affecting 100% of users, which makes me question at what point the software was tested internally, and for how long. There were also 3 reports of bricked units after install, which may or may not have been complete coincidence

I think there’s a healthy middle ground between those experiences, my own experiences, and a flawless experience. I haven’t seen a BSOD in a very long time... so, it is what it is.

I feel for you on price. My kids will be getting college loans so daddy can race. It helps if I think of it in terms of groceries. Seriously. I have 2 boys under 4 - not big eaters - and we literally spend $300 a week on groceries. Forget diapers. $300 a week on sh*t that grows in the ground. Which means for 2 months worth of food we can get spaceship hardware and support (basically) for life.

The dollar just isn’t what it used to be. You’re aging yourself!!!

 

[Spinelli]

Spinelli, did you ever purchase the SC2 Pro? As I remember you had an accuforce and were hoping to make the change. If you did, I would love to hear your impressions versus the accuforce since I own one and have not been able to test an SC2 Pro.

Yes, that video I posted with the ridiculously unrealistic FFB behavior is of a Simucube 2 Pro using 3 different combinations of FFB settings. All DD wheels, it seems, will behave this way (as I expanded on in that post - the issue being the primitive FFB technology all games & hardware are still using which is extremely dated [1990s] and was never meant for wheels this accelerative, fast, & powerful).

I had the Accuforce for a month or so but it didn't have the specific filter I was looking for. I thought it would definitely have a "S.A.T." filter (to adjust the force of the steering's "return-to-centre" & "auto-opposite-lock") to help alleviate some of the issues with DD wheels but it unfortunately, to mu surprise, didn't. That was the main reason I got the AF.

I was also quite irritated with the SimExperience software as it's often very unintuitive in how it works and just very messy. Not to mention, it often has different filters in different areas but with the exact same name - image having 3 different "dampers" or 2 different "smoothings," or how about 3 different filters with 3 different names the same sort of effect but each slightly differently. The software is a love/hate relationship though because, despite those dislikes of mine, there's lots of potential to tune the FFB (even if the specific thing I was looking for wasn't there - at least not at that time). If I kept the wheel a few months, I know I would have gotten used to the software and it would have been a delight to have so much control of the FFB and it would have been fast & easy to tune once I got used to things - in fact, I was already smiling at some of the quick tests I did in how I could tune the FFB to help with certain things - but there was 1 thing that made me say "nope, I can't do it."

If you turn the shaft of the AF, you can feel these little bumps, it reminds me of a belt-drive with many tiny small ribs or teeth. The thing is, when you put a wheel on, have the FFB going and start driving, this seems to "magically" disappear and it's smooth like any DD wheel - great!...Or so I thought. When you make a fast/hard steering input, you suddenly feel it for that moment. Does it affect your driving? Of course not but for a) the price, b) what it is ("high-end", dd, etc.), and c) for how long I intend to keep it, it's not something I want to live with especially after using dd wheels which were smooth 100% of the time, not 80% or 90% of the time.