Mobile Driving/Flying Cockpit with Motion and Tactile ( Build )

When it comes to audio, I think we are on the same sheet. (BTW, I got a recommendation to get these headphones from someone whose ears I trust which is why I mentioned I was considering them when you posted about them )

Let me emphasize that I'm not pointing fingers any anyone in this conversation.

Audio is such a mess from a communication standpoint. There is quite a bit of "magic" believed by many and being thrown around as fact. I've worked with Sound engineers and Mastering engineers, and I've dealt with "audiophiles" who believe in magic and those who are grounded in reality. There is a wide spectrum.

The result is that I've come to take a LOT of the reviews out there with a serious grain of salt.

We can argue about what the "best" is, or what potentially better values might be, but at the end of the day, if I'm happy with how the SE846's sound, I'm done. I won't be endlessly auditioning new earphones. I'll consider the box checked and move on. They arrive tomorrow and I should know pretty quickly if they check my box.

Is it likely something else would have checked that box? Very likely. Is this overkill for the application? Possibly. Oh well.
I typed a reply yesterday that I decided not to bother posting about the snake oil "audiophile" industry but decided not to bother. It wouldn't convince anybody that held different opinions. You're right - it's hard to talk about audio without crossing a line which is why I always advocate avoiding reviews and spec sheets and listening to stuff.

I still remember my reaction when I first listened to the 846 - that was coming from the 535. I won't give anything away yet because I look forward to hearing your thoughts. But I will say, and I think you already know this, the fit is really important. Take some time to experiment with tips to find what work best with your ears. The difference in sound quality with tips that fix the nozzles correctly for each individual ear is huge.

And, because I've been reading this thread long enough to know how you tick and where you might go next, take my advice and don't bother getting custom moulds. They are a pain in the ears and a pain in the arse. Find the Comply tips that work for you and stick with them . :)
 
  • Deleted member 197115

Ignorance is a bliss, you can call it snake oil, I'd call it proper home work.
It's completely fine if you don't care about that stuff, but this is $1K, the price of ThieAudio Monarch II, which technically and sonically much superior to 846. It is an overkill for gaming though, but so would be that overpriced Shure.
Granted without other proper point of reference, you'll like them, but could have gotten something much better in that range. Anyway, your money, your choice.

P.S.
@GagarynGaribaldi, are you posting on head-fi, under the same or different name, don't remember ever crossing paths there?
 
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Please don't let this turn into a "He said, She said" episode.
You can't swing a dead cat without finding opinionated people who will say how much one is better than another or make comparisons. The comparison below seems to highlight the differences in a couple headphones as that person saw them. Once again, I am NOT arguing that the 846's are the best things since sliced bread, but there is a reason many in the professional community have stuck with them for the last decade. That doesn't mean they are perfect, but just that they work well for the intended purpose.


I've not listened to either mentioned below yet, but I think it captures how nuanced a person's opinions can be both pro and con and also mentions other real world constraints.

"Monarch is more separated and energetic, with a much bigger, clean low end. Its timbre sounds clean and more pristine, at the expense of sounding more "digital". Se846 has the famed "creamy" mids, with an intimate, breathy quality without overdoing it.

Monarch also has the wider stage width and better instrument placement and separation. But the se846 has a more coherent sound presentation. Nothing sounds artificial or out of place tonally and to me, has a more "unified" sound than the Monarch. I find the timbre and tonality more lifelike than the Monarch.

Also, the Monarch has gigantic housings. It's not uncomfortable when you first wear it, but it will wear on you after hours of listening over many days. I had chronic fatigue with the Clairvoyance after a while, so I had to let go of it. Very unfortunate as it was one of my favourites."
 
As an owner of Martin Logan speakers, I know what total accuracy without distortion sounds and what an amazingly wide sound stage sounds like. I also know how they can fail and what they are not very good at. If you have your head in a vice they are quite an experience.

I can argue for or against owning them and there are many things that they are just not very good at.

I would not use them for a home theater system and I don't use them for mine. A very efficient dynamic speaker like a Klipsch would be much better. I also have a 4,000W peak 16" SVS subwoofer in my home theater room because it has great impact and handles a room that size.

For a VR headset I wanted something warmer that would add a sense of realism. I won't be listening to music critically with them. I wanted something very efficient with an easy load that might sound good plugged into my headset and that would not require an appropriately high end amplifier to hear what they are capable of.
 
  • Deleted member 197115

I think it does turn into silly "he said" competition and definitely the wrong place to discuss these things. If interested, there is a better one, you can just read there or ask for recommendations in $1K range.
I personally ended up with Monarch II and while still consider Dunu SA6 a better bang for the buck at almost half the price, with Monarch giving that last 15-20% with sound tonally much more natural and cohesive than most full size headphones I've had. The only sensible upgrade from it is 64 Audio U12t, but it's double the price and while more detailed with BA only design (12 of them) can be on more dry/digital side , you can find people leaning toward one or another, whether the preference is more analytical or analogue presentation.
Monarch does have bigger shells with all tribrid tech they stuffed inside, I have smallish ears myself and it was a concern, but after learning a proper positioning inside the ear AND switching to aftermarket Azla SednaEarFit Max tips it's not an issue anymore. Dunu SA6 has smaller shells and can feel a bit more comfortable from the first try.

Either one, including Shure 846, is an overkill for your application, and "vroom vroom" of car engine will not do them proper justice, but if you are planning to use them for dual purpose, gaming and music listening, then I'd probably spend a bit more time researching on what is on the market instead of just jumping on past its prime recognizable brand name.
Good luck on your journey.
 
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Ignorance is a bliss, you can call it snake oil, I'd call it proper home work.
It's completely fine if you don't care about that stuff, but this is $1K, the price of ThieAudio Monarch II, which technically and sonically much superior to 846. It is an overkill for gaming though, but so would be that overpriced Shure.
Granted without other proper point of reference, you'll like them, but could have gotten something much better in that range. Anyway, your money, your choice.

P.S.
@GagarynGaribaldi, are you posting on head-fi, under the same or different name, don't remember ever crossing paths there?
Not ignorance - I did research, but the meaningful type - i.e listening and deciding what I liked, not reading what others like. It often leads to unfashionable choices. :)

I have "audiophile" friends and other who work in audio professionally. The differences in approach between the two "factions" is hilarious but we are able to discuss with humour. At the end of the day - buy what you like and can afford and you will be happy. We all have different ears and different preferences. Despite what you may want to believe - there is no "best" choice - only your choice.

Edit - Overkill is subjective. I agree that you don't need fancy headphones for sim racing - I don't use mine for that but they will work well if you choose to use them. Plus, you miss the point that the whole audiophile industry is built upon overkill - gold plated fuses that cost £200, snake oil mains cables for £1000, magical feet that make electronics sound better. But it's individual's choice at the ed of the day...
 
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After all this audiospeak, let me recap what my goals were.

Initially:

1. See if I could get used to in ear headphones since I never had liked them to date.

Result: After taking a bit too long, I finally got my in ear headphone placement to work and found them comfortable with foam inserts and sounding pretty good.

2. Try headphones for visitors and in case I couldn't get the in ear headphones to work for me.

Result: As expected I thought the over the ear headphones were a bit warm and they did pick up the Aero's fan vibration, although in most games and on the track it wasn't noticeable so if you like your headset, they should be OK on the Aero.

I started with the following headphones with low impedances that are easy to drive without an inline amplifier.

Sennheiser HD 569 @ 23ohms 115db SPL
Sure 215 @ 17ohms 107db SPL

Both headphones required that I put my Galaxy S8 up into the orange to get adequate sound volumes. Basically a couple notches from maxing out the volume on that phone.

Fortunately the Aero has more power on tap than my phone. Both headphones have 4 pole connectors with built in microphones and plugged directly into the side of the Aero.

Depending on the game I used the 215's at 45-60% volume and the HD 569's at about 50-55% . I ran Beat Saber at the higher volumes. A headshot while playing In Death creates an overly concussive sound effect that required I lower the volume but at the expense of hearing the enemy teleporting behind me and other effects.

The SE215's have a strong bass sound and are bit weaker in the high ranges most noticeable in Beat Saber or games where you have 3D sound letting you hear an enemy moving behind/around you. They sounded fine on the track and voices like Crew Chief were very clear as well as the engine etc.. For $99 they are pretty solid value.

After I got the 215's working, and got comfortable inserting them into my ears, I stopped using the 569's. Part of the "trick" to getting better placement was to reach over my head with one hand pulling my ear back while inserting with the other hand. To be sure as mentioned earlier in this conversation the sleeves/inserts that press against your ear canal are very personal and make a surprising difference to comfort and sound quality. I'm currently using the Sure Medium foam inserts that came on my 215 out of the box.

Today my Sure 846 Gen 2's will arrive. They are rated 114 dB SPL and have an impedance that ranges from 16 ohms at 60Hz down to 9 ohms at 1kHz. They come with the same sure foam inserts and the normal Comply inserts and if I like the Comply inserts, I'll probably order a set of the Comply Pro inserts just to see how they sound. FYI, the Normal and Pro's are the same price. I'm sure this is a personal preference likely based on a person's ear canal dimensions.

My hope is that the 846's low impedance and high efficiency will make them very dynamic and allow me to hear details without excessive volume and that they behave more like Klipsch speakers in terms of feeling live which is what I want in VR.

As an example/comparison the Klipsch Heresy IV's are known for feeling very lively and without much power can convey the dynamics of a live event. They fill a room well. By comparison my ML's require lots of power and are very demanding on an amplifier. If the amp can't handle 1ohm impedances at some frequencies, it will fail miserably. Both speakers are very good and yet they are nearly polar opposites in what they do well and what it takes to drive them well.

What I'm trying to convey is how there are many different attributes that cause people to like different equipment. Sound engineers at a live event want something very different from what a person might want for certain music. My "gut" tells me that the 846 will give me that live feeling I want in VR directly driven by the headset without an inline amplifier because of the combination of their low impedance and high efficiency. I could be completely mistaken. I'll find out soon enough.

I'm not saying @Andrew_WOT is wrong. His suggestions are solid. He has some very well regarded earphones that earn praise in many circles and to be fair I would love to A/B them with what I've ordered.
 
I used the free earbuds that came with a phone with VR and then my G9 until they eventually died. They were perfect. Especially for racing sims. I never wanted to wear large over ear headphones, but I had a pair of Sehnheiser PC360's still floating around from years ago that I never ended up being able to flog off on eBay, so I though fk it i'll get them a try. Especially now that I don't have the VR strapped to my head and I have the wind sim built, I thought I might be able to get away with using them. Long cable, boom mic for when I need it ( so no more fecking about with trying to put a little mic somewhere on the rig for people to hear me ) and a volume dial on the side for ease of use. I'm super glad I tried them. They are obviously a bit warmer than earbuds but I'm used to them now and it's still better than having a VR headset stuck on your face.
 
  • Deleted member 197115

One downside of in ear monitors that they never sound as "big" as open headphones.
The layering, details, positioning can be spot on, but soundstage is shrunk in comparison.
Sony IER-M9 are regarded as the most holographic and large soundstage IEMs, haven't tried them yet, but if that's the quality you are after, take a serious look.
My goto headset when racing is Beyerdynamic T1 v1, open, fairly light and comfortable, can take some abuse, sound spacious and detailed. Plus being open back design they do not block outside world completely, so I can still hear fire alarm if house start burning.
With VR, I am just cautious blocking myself completely (visually and sonically) if home alone or worse with kids. Just can't shake this incident off from my mind. :)
 
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If I had kids around the house, especially small kids, in ear with sound isolation, wouldn't be something I would even remotely consider. That would be a deal breaker for safety reasons.

As it is I like the fact that I forget I'm wearing them and the comfort factor.
 
A few more Aero comments.

The setup was much less of an ordeal than I expected.

Last Friday I installed the Varjo Base software and during the setup it pointed SteamVR to use the Varjo OpenXR environment by default.

All my Oculus titles have worked and all the SteamVR titles have worked.

I simply needed to pair my Index Controllers with it which took a few seconds per controller and I was done.

I didn't even adjust the room boundaries. I continue to use the boundaries I configured with my Index.

For iRacing I did configure iRacing to use OpenXR and I did set up eye tracking and foveated rendering.

For DCS I did install a wrapper. The wrapper simply tells DCS not to run with 4 displays (ie. Varjo XR-3 ) It was very simple and took a few minutes. I'll likely play with the settings a bit more, but so far so good.

I did put those large ferrite cores on preventatively and I've had zero issues with blackouts or losing tracking in Dirt Rally. I've had no issues with tracking in room scale games either.

Frankly other than my gyrations with finding an audio solution that I'm happy with this has been surprisingly easy and a big non-event. I was expecting to have to do more.

I believe a lot of this lack of effort to make things work correctly is due to my 4090/13900K combo keeping up with the needs of the headset well.

A year ago I likely would have had a much different experience. Varjo was still working out major issues in the driving software and as some found out even a 3090 had trouble driving the Aero in some titles.
 
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.. writes the man with Index off-ear speakers and 3D printer.
What I've seen on further digging are a bunch of science experiments. None have actually been what I would consider fruitful or look like something I would want to hang off my Aero.

I would need an inline amplifier to start with and it turns out Valve had a few more tricks up their sleeve and they have some DSP work going on to make those off ear speaker sound so good.

It would seem that Valve added some secret sauce that may be hard to replicate :(
 
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some secret sauce
Equalizer-APO.jpg

Equalizer APO

 
SE846s_9011.jpg


The Sure 846's did come with Pro series Comply inserts. I tried the Sure foam inserts and then moved to the Medium Comply Pro inserts and I like them pretty well and may stick with them.

SE846s_9012.jpg

As expected they sound a LOT bit better than the 215's for music. They should, they are 900% the price of the 215's. The bass is solid and crisp and the highs are much better. I'm using the new red filters that have a more extended upper frequency range.

As expected these would be more dynamic and they are more efficient. I can clearly hear details at lower volumes.

Diana Krall's Stop this World sounded very nice. Vocals are very clean and smooth.
Ginuwine's Pony isn't challenging, but bass bass and more bass, and still the highs are there too.
Imagine Dragon's Radioactive is an odd test track, but it is a surprising test for warm vs. ultra low distortion accuracy. It sounds horrible on my ML's. The 846's are warm and this track actually sounds good. I was hoping for that.
Pentatonix in general sounds great. These headphones love vocals.
Alice in Chains Unplugged sounds good. I'd probably say it sounds really good, but I use it as a demo track on my ML's since this whole album sounds phenomenal and the earphones don't capture that and I'm too familiar with what can come through.
Daft Punk Alive 2007 sounds very good.

I ran about 12% of the battery down on my old S8 playing various tracks all over the map just seeing what they do well and where they didn't. Overall they sound very good. The 215's aren't even in the same ball park.

They do sound more open and wider than the 215's, but the spatial imaging for music is nothing like a pair of speakers, period. Just not there.

Next I plugged them into the Aero with my fingers crossed.

Fortunately in VR they are what I was hoping for. I'm very grateful for this because I was guesstimating a lot based on the word of a few people and my assumptions about impedance and the dynamic range of these headphones.

I don't think VR relies one bit on spatial imaging based on phase like music reproduced on speakers do. I'm assuming it simply adjusts the volume between your ears so that as you turn you can hear one ear getting louder and the other quieter. This is a very good thing because I think the only reason these feel more open than the 215's is having better midrange and high range.

I ran them as low as 15% volume in the Aero and I could still play at that volume and hear what I needed to hear. There is good dynamic range in this headset. The sound isolation likely helps as well.

I think I'm settling on around 35% volume in game and I can clearly hear all the ambient noises around me. The percussive headshots are no longer ear splitting and have a solid deeper note to them. They sound much lower and fuller than they did with the 215's. The 215's were painful playing In Death because I had to increase the volume enough to hear the ambient sounds, but then the percussive note was a higher frequency and painful. To be fair that is the only title where the 215's were painful. In all other titles they were fine. However the 846's do sound much better and have a fuller range. They clearly sound much better in Beat Saber playing music. Go figure!

In game I think they come close to sounding as good as the Index headphones. They sound clearly better in the bass and the Index's have good bass and the mids are a bit more pleasing. They are similar in the highs. I think the 846's have more dynamic range.

Those are just my initial knee jerk reactions. But I'm very happy to be this satisfied after a such a short stint with them in VR. Odds are as I get used to them I'll like them more. The "user" break in period is a real thing even if breakin periods for equipment is generally a bunch of horse puky.

So I'm done looking. I'm not suggesting they are gods gift to music, but they are miles better than the 215's and will be great for this application. They will now be permanently attached to my Aero unless I have visitors over.

SE846_9013.jpg
 
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I will very clearly state that I don't know diddly poop about headphones.
I did not compare many ear phones.
I just got used to wearing in ear headphones over the last week or so.

For sim racing there is no reason to have this level of fidelity.

I am a picky SOB at times and while I had reasons that lead me down this path, many of those reasons are highly suspect by most rational people.

So I'm sharing my results, and I'm glad I'm happy, but I am not making recommendations.
 
I'm having some interesting conversations about audio in general.

Sim Racers use at least the following options/combinations

1. Surround speakers
2. Over the head earphones
3. In ear earphones
4. Off ear speakers Index, G2, Quest ( VR only )
5. Hybrid ( surround speakers, but with Crew Chief in headphones )

I'm thinking that I will likely grow to like the overall sound quality I'm getting now a bit more than my Index off ear speakers, but the fact remains if an Index 2 is announced and it uses the same off ear speakers, I'll go back to them.
 

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