PC1 Latest Build testing.

[Andy_J]

As you all know, Ian gave me a free pass to test the latest builds and that's what I have been doing for the last week. I will report here as and when I see fit to tell all about my findings.

But I will say that the latest build (296) is quite good. Now lets make some sense of my statement. I used a Lotus 98T in helmet cam using my antique MOMO red wheel and I can honestly report it is coming along much better than I anticipated. The actual feel and immersion is damn fine at this point. The handling is strange at first compared to say...RF2 and FVA, but it grows on you within minutes. At this point in time, this actual car feels good. I like it and I love the Milan circuit. The damage model has come on leaps and bounds.

I am doing some more testing all of next week using a G27 and I will also test some of the other cars that don't interest me as much (I am a F1 nut) and see how the feel in comparison to Shift 2, because that is what I was initially comparing PCars to.

I would like the replay function to have a directors mode though. Something that jumps from action to action and from car to car.

Aside from that, the replay's do crash my PC quite often but I understand that is being looked at.

Watch this space.

 

[bmanic]

Mod-edit: the off-topic discussion ended here.

Dude.. seriously, you obviously have no clue how to setup the FFB. Here's how you do it for the T500 (though I'm pretty sure whatever I write here you'll just keep saying it sucks because you've obviously made up your mind a long long time ago).

1a) DELETE THE WHOLE Project CARS directory in your Documents folder. YOU MUST DO THIS to make sure this works correctly. Who knows how old garbage files you have in there as you can't even seem to get FFB working properly you probably don't know how to manage the WIP file management either (aka deleting the profile every time a new build is released). So if you don't do this step then don't bother with the game at all at this point in time. Just get rid of it and leave the pCars subforum.

1b) Set your thrustmaster control panel like this:

- Overall strength of all forces 75% (if you like a heavy wheel you can set this up to about 85% while still maintaining decently linear FFB range)
- Constant force 100%
- everything else to 0%
- Auto-center settings -> by game

2) Enter the game, setup your graphics options again. Restart game.

3) Go to the options/controllers and select the T500 preset. Calibrate the wheel correctly exactly according to the instructions. Calibrate the pedals.

4) Go into the CONFIGURATION tab. Make sure you remove all deadzones from everything (throttle, break, clutch) and make absolutely sure you set the Force Feedback slider to 100 (it defaults to 75!!). Then make sure the Damper slider is set to zero (it defaults to 25).

5) Go back to the Control Scheme tab and from there press the Calibrate Force Feedback button in the lower right corner. In this menu set the following sliders:

Tireforce = 100 (default value)

Deadzone Removal Range = 5 (default 0)
Deadzone Removal Falloff = 10 (default value)

Relative Adjust Gain = 98
Relative Adjust Bleed = 10 (this is the key!!)
Relative Adjust Clip = 96

Scoop Knee = 70
Scoop Reduction = 15

6) once you've entered the above values, press the back arrow twice to properly save the settings. They still glitch sometimes and lose the settings so if the FFB feels off then go back and set them again.

7) select a car with known lively FFB, like the Atom 500 v8 and drive on a track with known final polish and microbumps (like Watkins Glen or Besos GP).

.... yeah, huge amount of text and it was probably all for nothing but perhaps somebody else gets some help with this.

 

[Chris Partridge]

Why isn't this the default then?

 

[bmanic]

I have thought and wondered for quite a while why all this back and forth with the members about the FFB? All they have to do is setup a rig with GSCE and AC at the SMS offices and have the devs drive those and then strive to make the ffb in Pcars as close to that out of the box as possible. Very simple. This would at least give them an idea of what most in the sim community considers quite good FFB. No need to try and re invent the wheel with this aspect of the sim.

Most of the sim community are obviously not very smart. The FFB in pCars is DIRECTLY connected to the tire/spindle-arm topology. Much more so than in any other sim. It is NOT a simple matter of "Do it so it feels like Sim X".

It's extremely frustrating seeing so many, quite frankly "stupid" people (meaning people who do not understand the written word and can not think at all for themselves) completely missing the point of the FFB. pCars is by far the most flexible when it comes to the amount of stuff you can tweak for the FFB. Yeah it's a bit complex and complicated but one thing should be easy for people to understand: THE DEFAULT SETTINGS ARE YET TO BE SET. Heck there are even complete wheel presets missing like the TX 458 from Thrustmaster.

Seriously, no other simulation allows you to tweak the FFB output to your wheel at the level pCars does. It gives you Fx, Fy, Fz and Mz outputs, separately, for every single car, within the car setup menu!!! (if you don't know what those mean you might want to look up tire model / tire physics articles on wikipedia). It allows you to set the spindle arm angle for the FFB!! (if you don't know what this is.. go wikipedia again). There has NEVER been as much tech and geeky goodies when it comes to FFB in any sim ever before (and probably never again). What do the developers get as a thanks? A huge bunch of whiney know-nothings. Perls to swine.

You may be asking yourself: "Why does it need to be so complex? <insert Sim X> does it just fine by default!". No. It does not. pCars FFB, when it's setup properly and tuned for the problems that consumer wheels like G25/G27/DFGT/T500/Clubsport v1 (v2 can already be considered "truly high-end(ish)" and thus is the first wheel that should be run completely linear) have it is, in my not so humble opinion, BY FAR (by a million trillion times), the best FFB ever created for any sim. Heck it's THE ONLY sim where I can literally let go of the wheel (a crappy DFGT and my TX 458m works on both!!) and it's self-aligning torque helps you properly correct an oversteer moment, just like you can do in real life. This is simply not possible in any other sim that I own (GSC comes close though.. but real feel just isn't snappy enough, or the tires have some slip angle oddities).

But yeah.. whatever. I've given up trying to get people to understand how the FFB system works and why it would be important to understand that 99% of the wheels currently in the hands of sim-racers/consumers should not run linear FFB like some sims make you believe. It's just completely wrong and utterly idiotic.. unless you want to get as far from reality as you can.

 

[bmanic]

Why isn't this the default then?

It's most likely going to be. It has been said numerous times on the forums.. none of the wheel presets have been tweaked since they were introduced. That's like more than a year ago.

I'm sure SMS is smart enough to create some proper defaults before the game ships. There's just no point in doing it right now. Too many changing variables still. Heck, there's not even any descriptions for the options yet.

 

[Chris Partridge]

Fine - then set it up correctly - by default - surely to prevent these questions?

 

[Chris Partridge]

Getting v close now tho to release.

 

[Sicario Del Toro]

^^^^ great post @bmanic http://www.racedepartment.com/threads/latest-build-testing.55666/page-80#post-1912303

 

[Andy_J]

Dude.. seriously, you obviously have no clue how to setup the FFB. Here's how you do it for the T500 (though I'm pretty sure whatever I write here you'll just keep saying it sucks because you've obviously made up your mind a long long time ago).

Firstly, don't call me Dude OK. I am not your Dude. Lets get that straight.

1a) DELETE THE WHOLE Project CARS directory in your Documents folder. YOU MUST DO THIS to make sure this works correctly. Who knows how old garbage files you have in there as you can't even seem to get FFB working properly you probably don't know how to manage the WIP file management either (aka deleting the profile every time a new build is released). So if you don't do this step then don't bother with the game at all at this point in time. Just get rid of it and leave the pCars subforum.

Secondly, I always delete the user profile and anything else from the "My Docs" folder. I don't have old garbage files anywhere on my PC. So don't teach me to suck eggs and don't be insulting my intelligence. Got that?

1b) Set your thrustmaster control panel like this:

- Overall strength of all forces 75% (if you like a heavy wheel you can set this up to about 85% while still maintaining decently linear FFB range)
- Constant force 100%
- everything else to 0%
- Auto-center settings -> by game

My Thrustmaster controls are already set to those settings.

2) Enter the game, setup your graphics options again. Restart game.

Obvious, coz I have deleted my user profile, but useful to those that don't know.

3) Go to the options/controllers and select the T500 preset. Calibrate the wheel correctly exactly according to the instructions. Calibrate the pedals.

Always do.

As for the rest of your gibbering, like I stated earlier and many times but WMD fanboys (sorry, I mean investors) like you don't get it. I test with the default FFB as it comes. If that is bad, then it's bad and I say so. If you don't like it. Tough. Go and cry somewhere else. Or perhaps ask in your Dev forum why the default FFB is so useless? Why can't they do as you suggest for the default FFB?


.... yeah, huge amount of text and it was probably all for nothing but perhaps somebody else gets some help with this.

Perhaps some will find it useful, I don't, so you guessed right in my regard. But get this, I am not even bothering with your workarounds or actually listening to your gibberish. OK? But I will offer you thanks for this workaround because it will no doubt be helpful to many others. When the final release is out, then I'll try and get the FFB feeling better. Is that OK with you?

Thank you for that Bamaniac, another great big investor rant, but........
Don't tell me what to do. If I want to test the latest build I will and I 'll test it how it is and tell it how it is, like I have done previously without messing about. Got that? It is quite simple. It is my opinion and it is subjective. If you don't like it I won't lose any sleep over it. So don't be telling what I can and can't do in regard to Pcars, this forum or anything else.

Right move along, there is nothing to see here, nor is their any FFb to feel Have a nice day. Chill, take a breath and relax. I have no hard feelings towards you or any other of the investors/fanboys that will no doubt make a comment or click on the dislikes.
All the best.
Andy

 

[Andy_J]

Fine - then set it up correctly - by default - surely to prevent these questions?

Agreed. This^^^^^

 

[Rob]

My God. I'm just a console peon, but even I know that default settings are ALWAYS either way off or close but need adjustment. Even with the few we have on the console. I have the Trustmaster TX Italia and I simply cannot believe that THAT wheel (excellent in my book, and I've owned Fanatecs) is not going to give the proper FFB, in any game, period. Unless the game makers are just making a cartoon.

I appreciate "playing the game as it is, but nobody does this." Personally (and I know I'm in the minority) I love Shift2. Only because I can get a good feel for it from the Fanatec CSR settings and the many in game settings and tuning. You could see what SMS was trying to do. And you can feel what EA did. Simple as that. If I played Shift2 right out of the box, I'd just have thrown it away. Thank God I stuck with it.

I guess you have to throw out the "this sucks ass" and the "this is the best ever" reviews to get any semblance of reality?

 

[Fabrizio Corona]

My God. I'm just a console peon, but even I know that default settings are ALWAYS either way off or close but need adjustment. Even with the few we have on the console. I have the Trustmaster TX Italia and I simply cannot believe that THAT wheel (excellent in my book, and I've owned Fanatecs) is not going to give the proper FFB, in any game, period. Unless the game makers are just making a cartoon.

I appreciate "playing the game as it is, but nobody does this." Personally (and I know I'm in the minority) I love Shift2. Only because I can get a good feel for it from the Fanatec CSR settings and the many in game settings and tuning. You could see what SMS was trying to do. And you can feel what EA did. Simple as that. If I played Shift2 right out of the box, I'd just have thrown it away. Thank God I stuck with it.

I guess you have to throw out the "this sucks ass" and the "this is the best ever" reviews to get any semblance of reality?

Well let's see: AC, RF2, GSC, iRacing all have decent or very good FFB out of the box. So that's simply not true.

They barely have one more month before the game must be ready to ship, and actually only finished physics for 1 or 2 cars (including tyres).
What will happen is they'll just release the game with 90% of the cars in beta state because it's good enough for console gamers, try to fix the FFB and call it a day.
Let alone all the other bugs.

 

[Rob]

Well let's see: AC, RF2, GSC, iRacing all have decent or very good FFB out of the box. So that's simply not true.

They barely have one more month before the game must be ready to ship, and actually only finished physics for 1 or 2 cars (including tyres).
What will happen is they'll just release the game with 90% of the cars in beta state because it's good enough for console gamers, try to fix the FFB and call it a day.
Let alone all the other bugs.

All nice games but not on the console. Are you saying that console games are just crap on principal? Do you play all of those fancy PC games on default settings? FFB is probably the easiest thing to get right and set on the console. You have so many options, why even care about pCARS, a game that PC guys, not console guys, have been developing for years. Are they all just idiots? Or has SMS just ignored them after taking their money? The post about setting you rig up properly makes sense, to me, but what do I know.

Are you saying Collins, Rast, and Hamilton are all just there for show? Hell, Rast does this on his own and prepares for LeMans with pCARS. I think I'll pin my hopes on someone like him.

 

[Fabrizio Corona]

All nice games but not on the console. Are you saying that console games are just crap on principal? Do you play all of those fancy PC games on default settings? FFB is probably the easiest thing to get right and set on the console. You have so many options, why even care about pCARS, a game that PC guys, not console guys, have been developing for years. Are they all just idiots? Or has SMS just ignored them after taking their money? The post about setting you rig up properly makes sense, to me, but what do I know.

Are you saying Collins, Rast, and Hamilton are all just there for show? Hell, Rast does this on his own and prepares for LeMans with pCARS. I think I'll pin my hopes on someone like him.

Oh you're one of THOSE guys. (or do you even own the game?/have access to the forum?)
Seriously, stop spreading these lies across the internet, all 3 of them are on contract with SMS, they are paid consultants and no SMS dev will ever say otherwise. Rast has been gifted a Fanatec setup, so he can advertise pCARS on, because when he feels like actually training he'll go to the Audi facilities where they have an actual simulator, not a simcade that happens to have both LeMans and the R18. Might as well try GT5, the FFB is better.
I've been part of the project before these guys were bought into it, and the handling hasn't changed for the better, because you know, those 2-3 forum comments a week from them don't actually change anything. It may be because they have no clue about how a sim works and should feel and because the handling and the FFB of the cars will change every other week, or because there is only so much you can do with the Shift 2 engine. This is nothing but a marketing stunt, trust me, all these posts from WMD investors trying to hype the game are really depressing to see, because they know how inferior their product is compared to any sim out there. But truth will come out in March, and while they may get the sales and profit from console sales, they will never get the respect from the sim community.

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Yes actually i do play all these games on default, and they are close to perfect. And yes, there is no proper simulator on console, the closest you've got is GT/Forza, both which are really the definition of a simcade. Light-years from AC, rF or iR.

Dislikes from pCARS investors, how not suprising

 

[Andy_J]

My God. I'm just a console peon, but even I know that default settings are ALWAYS either way off or close but need adjustment. Even with the few we have on the console.

When you are used to proper race sims, not arcade console games. default FFB has always been usable in all of our sims. Yes we do tweak them to our personal tastes, but out of the box they are usually very good.

I guess you have to throw out the "this sucks ass" and the "this is the best ever" reviews to get any semblance of reality?

I guess you do. I have never done a review and stated either of those two things. Why don't you give us a review of your current Pcars build testing Robert? I for one would be interested in reading it and digesting your views on the current status.

@Robert Waddell So please Robert, give us your current views on the latest build. How do you find it?

 

[c172fccc]

I brought this up at the WMD forums and most people were like, "I like the grip level we have now". They didn't say it was realistic but that they liked it.

Really? One said that he thinks that the grip is almost ok and another one said that he thinks that the grip is unconvincing and that they should add micro bumbs for a more realistic effect and the last one said that he doesn't think that there is a problem with the grip, but he agrees that the grass should have micro bumbs. No one said that they like it as it is.

Oh you're one of THOSE guys. (or do you even own the game?/have access to the forum?)
Seriously, stop spreading these lies across the internet, all 3 of them are on contract with SMS, they are paid consultants and no SMS dev will ever say otherwise. Rast has been gifted a Fanatec setup, so he can advertise pCARS on, because when he feels like actually training he'll go to the Audi facilities where they have an actual simulator, not a simcade that happens to have both LeMans and the R18. Might as well try GT5, the FFB is better.
I've been part of the project before these guys were bought into it, and the handling hasn't changed for the better, because you know, those 2-3 forum comments a week from them don't actually change anything. It may be because they have no clue about how a sim works and should feel and because the handling and the FFB of the cars will change every other week, or because there is only so much you can do with the Shift 2 engine. This is nothing but a marketing stunt, trust me, all these posts from WMD investors trying to hype the game are really depressing to see, because they know how inferior their product is compared to any sim out there. But truth will come out in March, and while they may get the sales and profit from console sales, they will never get the respect from the sim community.

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Yes actually i do play all these games on default, and they are close to perfect. And yes, there is no proper simulator on console, the closest you've got is GT/Forza, both which are really the definition of a simcade. Light-years from AC, rF or iR.

Oh, yeah sure, we're just a bunch of people lying
to ourselves and to everybody.

I'm getting tired of all these "conspiracy theorist".

 

[ThatAntisocialKid]

I can't be the only one who thinks AC's FFB is "meh", can I? Default FFB in AC is just weight transfer and a ridiculous engine and road rumble that feels like it's trying to shatter my wheel. Even when I tweak it the best I can get is just the weight transfer feeling alone with no other effects.

Ultimately FFB comes down to a mix of a matter of preference and everyone's own predefined notion of what the FFB should feel like (whether it be "it should feel like X sim" or "it should feel like X because of my past racing experience") and you never will please everyone with the default settings. Some amount of tweaking with always be necessary on the user's part, because what might feel great to one person could feel dead to another.

It's understandable to expect a decent default FFB setup in a completed game where all you have to do is select your wheel at set the overall FFB strength to your liking, but not in a game in development. Yes, pCARS is close to release, but—as evident if you check the dev posts at WMD—the final push is being made to finish up the game. As much as this has been said before, it makes sense for the default FFB profile for each wheel to not have been setup or completed as of yet. The tires are still being finalized and each tweak has the possibility to change the FFB so why would the devs spend time that will most likely be at least somewhat wasted setting FFB defaults when they would just have to go back and change them when the tires are finished?

And let's not forget that WMD members are in the unique position (WRT involvement in the game's development) where we are able to put forward our suggestions for the FFB defaults and actually have our suggestions heard and implemented. If you aren't satisfied with the FFB, tweak it and play around until you find what feels best to you and then post your settings on the forum with what wheel you're using and let others try it. If enough people like it, considering that we are in the final push to finish the game, I don't think it's unreasonable for the devs to either port the settings you came up with directly into the game or a slightly altered version. IIRC Jack Spades tweakers are more or less the unofficial officially sponsored FFB tweaker by the devs.

Actually, that made me realize that it's probably worth messaging Casey, Doug, and/or AJ about the possibility of setting up a new Call To Arms thread for people to submit their own custom FFB settings (by which I mean FFB settings per car and what wheel they are for) and to allow submissions for a period of time before closing the thread and starting new threads with polls per wheel in which everyone can vote on which FFB settings they like the most. In fact, I think I'm going to go do that now. Good day, gentlemen.

 

[Andy_J]

I can't be the only one who thinks AC's FFB is "meh"?
And let's not forget that WMD members are in the unique position (WRT involvement in the game's development)

Yes you are all investors with a vested interest and unlikely to allow any discontent towards the game. And you are very wrong about AC's FFB. It is far more detailed and sublime than Pcars could ever hope for in my subjective opinion that is.

Don't get me wrong, I would love Pcars to match it and I hope it will.

And can I ask what "meh" means? Is it some text talk teenage gamers type thing? As I have never heard of the word before. Sounds childish.

 

[David Cordell]

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[David Cordell]

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[Rob]

@Robert Waddell So please Robert, give us your current views on the latest build. How do you find it?

The PC guys have been very nice to me here, even if I questioned them or wondered how a PC game that is being compared to the best PC racers will stack up on the console. All valid points of interest, in my book. No personal attacks, condescension or sarcasm. I can see why other PC users just ignore your posts Andy. Personally I'm just thankful that someone at least responds to your "I don't care what the big picture is, I'm going to play it out of the box and then slam it" attitude, so I can at least have an update from those who actually change their settings (I wonder how many on the PC play Assetto with no change in wheel or driving settings?).

If I'm beneath you or an annoyance to your Andy, I apologize, but the game will be released on the console whether you like it or not. So we console users are just as curious...we just can't play, like those PC guys who didn't buy in in time.