PC1 Latest Build testing.

[Andy_J]

As you all know, Ian gave me a free pass to test the latest builds and that's what I have been doing for the last week. I will report here as and when I see fit to tell all about my findings.

But I will say that the latest build (296) is quite good. Now lets make some sense of my statement. I used a Lotus 98T in helmet cam using my antique MOMO red wheel and I can honestly report it is coming along much better than I anticipated. The actual feel and immersion is damn fine at this point. The handling is strange at first compared to say...RF2 and FVA, but it grows on you within minutes. At this point in time, this actual car feels good. I like it and I love the Milan circuit. The damage model has come on leaps and bounds.

I am doing some more testing all of next week using a G27 and I will also test some of the other cars that don't interest me as much (I am a F1 nut) and see how the feel in comparison to Shift 2, because that is what I was initially comparing PCars to.

I would like the replay function to have a directors mode though. Something that jumps from action to action and from car to car.

Aside from that, the replay's do crash my PC quite often but I understand that is being looked at.

Watch this space.

 

[Kjell Eilertsen]

But if the AI was programmed to be as good (well better than most) human opponents. then racing would feel even better....surely? A good well written AI (GP4 for example) races better than anyone you find in public servers and some private ones.

But each to their own as you say. For me, I'd rather race against clever AI before clumsy ramming, non skillfull oomans anyday.

No, I just don't enjoy beating or being beaten by AI, was the same when I played WoW for years, took me a while to realize it but I found no joy in finally beating a PvE encounter, other than the feeling of having done it with a bunch of friends. Story may drive me to play single player but no AI, no matter how complex or good, makes me feel great about beating a computer like beating another human being does. It's not that I'm super competitive either, I'm fine with loosing, as long as I lost on equal terms (same equipment for instance) I know it was down to my opponent being better than me.

 

[Mark Quigley]

Good AI would question my mothers morality when I punt them into the weeds.

 

[Andy_J]

Good AI would question my mothers morality when I punt them into the weeds.

You don't have to ram them off. You could race them.

 

[Chronus]

You don't have to ram them off. You could race them.

THAT is exactly what my IRG team mate Barry says about GTR2 Reborn AI. And I have always agreed with him: if you fight the AI (as if on a demolition derby) your experience will be bad and the AI will not react properly, but if you race them as in RL (with care for racing lines and avoiding wrecking other cars), the experience can be gratifying.

I see a boat load of people unwilling to drive properly against the AI complaining about the AI, and when racing against other human beings they behave just as poorly (but then some adapt: if in iRacing, SR go down pretty quickly, if in leagues with other sims, fellow league members must show respect for racing and towards other members).

The best races I have ever had were against AI on GTR2 (Reborn, I admit), Race07 (with Reborn AI, I also admit) and on Game Stock Car 2012 (mostly with Reborn AI, but also with default AI). The best iRacing races don't even come close.

[Racing against actual pro racing drivers, though, trumps EVERYTHING though. Too bad it can't be frequent.]

 

[Kenny Paton]

THAT is exactly what my IRG team mate Barry says about GTR2 Reborn AI. And I have always agreed with him: if you fight the AI (as if on a demolition derby) your experience will be bad and the AI will not react properly, but if you race them as in RL (with care for racing lines and avoiding wrecking other cars), the experience can be gratifying.

I see a boat load of people unwilling to drive properly against the AI complaining about the AI, and when racing against other human beings they behave just as poorly (but then some adapt: if in iRacing, SR go down pretty quickly, if in leagues with other sims, fellow league members must show respect for racing and towards other members).

The best races I have ever had were against AI on GTR2 (Reborn, I admit), Race07 (with Reborn AI, I also admit) and on Game Stock Car 2012 (mostly with Reborn AI, but also with default AI). The best iRacing races don't even come close.

[Racing against actual pro racing drivers, though, trumps EVERYTHING though. Too bad it can't be frequent.]

Chronus, I have GTR2 reborn, are the others available or are they your private mods? I apologise for the thread hijack.

 

[Graham Byford]

GTR2 is still a great sim until the AI pit and some AI cars vanish for no reason.

GSC is pretty good, but pile ups in the pitlane occur and the AI don't suffer tyre wear the same as the player car and don't use p2p.

I find it best to race with tyre wear off and run shorter races with no pitstops.

GP4 still my fave for AI.

 

[Mark Quigley]

To me, multiplayer is more than just good/bad racing.
I just don't feel bad when I wreck racing AI but feel very bad when I ruin a real life persons race, even if they are cool with it I still have a guilt trip.
Good racing against real people is a rare thing but well worth persisting with multiplayer for the opportunity.
Online gaming was a revelation for me, I would never have imagined playing computer games with people from all over the world but that's what we do now and there is just no going back to single player racing for me.
I think there are two camps, folks where AI is essential and the others where it would not be missed.

 

[Chronus]

With Andy's permission...

Hey, Kenny. They're private for now. Discussed extending Reborn to Race07/GTRE with a fellow hardcore simracer and friend (his enthusiastic feedback has me persuaded to go in that direction) and also with the IRG members...but nothing concrete has happened yet.

 

[Andy_J]

My GTR2 install has your Reborn AI Chronos. I love a good race against the AI and it is so much cleaner than any public server I have ever been on In fact most of the private servers have not raced as clean or as mean. They race like their is mutual respect.

Thanks for your work in this area.

 

[Kenny Paton]

With Andy's permission...

Hey, Kenny. They're private for now. Discussed extending Reborn to Race07/GTRE with a fellow hardcore simracer and friend (his enthusiastic feedback has me persuaded to go in that direction) and also with the IRG members...but nothing concrete has happened yet.

Thanks Chronus, I'll keep my eyes open for any news in the future.

 

[Chronus]

Thank you, Andy and Kenny.

Physics is my personal arena, my contributions to the AI were tiny by comparison to Barry's work. And then our testing buddies were sublime in their patience and methodical work.

As I said when we released Reborn in 2011, we did it for GTR2 fans and fellow simracers - for you guys. Well worth it.

 

[Rob]

THAT is exactly what my IRG team mate Barry says about GTR2 Reborn AI. And I have always agreed with him: if you fight the AI (as if on a demolition derby) your experience will be bad and the AI will not react properly, but if you race them as in RL (with care for racing lines and avoiding wrecking other cars), the experience can be gratifying.

I see a boat load of people unwilling to drive properly against the AI complaining about the AI, and when racing against other human beings they behave just as poorly (but then some adapt: if in iRacing, SR go down pretty quickly, if in leagues with other sims, fellow league members must show respect for racing and towards other members).

The best races I have ever had were against AI on GTR2 (Reborn, I admit), Race07 (with Reborn AI, I also admit) and on Game Stock Car 2012 (mostly with Reborn AI, but also with default AI). The best iRacing races don't even come close.

[Racing against actual pro racing drivers, though, trumps EVERYTHING though. Too bad it can't be frequent.]

The A.I. in GRID Autosport are very nice competition too, as strange as that may sound. A bit too "weighty" but a good balance of aggressiveness and awareness too.

 

[Mircea Rad]

So, for the people up for some testing that don't visit the WMD forums (yes @Andy Jackson, that's you ) give it a try with Jack Spade 0.41 tweaker FFB files. They are very well done and bring the FFB pretty close if not better to the best I ever tried. Just go to post #899 in this thread "Custom FFB Tweaking Files - Post Yours Here" and you can download it. The files are car specific, so be sure to use the correct one.

 

[Andy_J]

So, for the people up for some testing that don't visit the WMD forums (yes @Andy Jackson, that's you ) give it a try with Jack Spade 0.41 tweaker FFB files.

I visit and read every day, I just don't read everything because most of it is praising how good SMS are and how wonderful it all is. (So Mircea Rad that's not me) I will not test community made addons and tweaks to Pcars. I test each build as the devs put it out. If that build has poor FFB then I will say so. I am not going to start doing tweaks, looking for fixes etc. Why can't SMS do FFB files as good as Jack Spades and incorporate them into the game? After all, they are the professionals.

I have no doubt the modding community will fix Pcars one day. Just like they did with Shift 1 and 2.............to a degree. I also understand that the devs (sms) need to put out a race game that appeals to a greater audience than us pc race simmers in order to satisfy the investors and make a profit. It's not rocket science. Good luck to them. I hope they succeed.

 

[Rob]

I visit and read every day, I just don't read everything because most of it is praising how good SMS are and how wonderful it all is. (So Mircea Rad that's not me) I will not test community made addons and tweaks to Pcars. I test each build as the devs put it out. If that build has poor FFB then I will say so. I am not going to start doing tweaks, looking for fixes etc. Why can't SMS do FFB files as good as Jack Spades and incorporate them into the game? After all, they are the professionals.

I have no doubt the modding community will fix Pcars one day. Just like they did with Shift 1 and 2.............to a degree. I also understand that the devs (sms) need to put out a race game that appeals to a greater audience than us pc race simmers in order to satisfy the investors and make a profit. It's not rocket science. Good luck to them. I hope they succeed.

No offense, but the fact that experienced PC races who love games like Assetto and iRacing and rF2 disagree with you...and they are substantial...gives me hope that us console users will be saved from the likes of Forza, F1, GRID, and NFS. To what degree, I'm not sure. But please don't assume that all console users are arcade morons who are under 25. Some of us just like the convenience, but would welcome a true SIM. In fact, like a famous politician once said, I think these people are the "silent majority". There are many other forces at work (turnaround cycle, console maker requirements, etc.) that have softened the physics of console games. Personally, I think if pCARS comes even close to SIM, it will be regarded like Race Pro, but with looks and outstrip all projections.

 

[Mircea Rad]

I am not going to start doing tweaks, looking for fixes etc. Why can't SMS do FFB files as good as Jack Spades and incorporate them into the game? After all, they are the professionals.

I have no doubt the modding community will fix Pcars one day. Just like they did with Shift 1 and 2.............to a degree. I also understand that the devs (sms) need to put out a race game that appeals to a greater audience than us pc race simmers in order to satisfy the investors and make a profit. It's not rocket science. Good luck to them. I hope they succeed.

You got it all wrong, Andy. It's not the fact that SMS is not providing the good quality FFB, they just haven't started fine-tuning it for different wheels and cars yet. Just this week they stated that they will start working later on to fine tune the FFB and they will take into consideration the FFB inputs and tweaks from the WMD forum from people like Jack Spade, because in the end, that is what this is, a Community Assisted Race Sim. What Jack did is not a mod and he's not fixing anything, he's just working ahead of the dev team and provides valuable inputs.

I gave you an advice on how to improve your experience in CARS at the current level of development, yet you are surrounded by negativity, you imply SMS are not professional and that modders need to fix their work and you automatically assume that SMS is not willing to make a sim because they want nothing more than money. A simple thanks would have sufficed.

P.S. At this point my conversation with you ends, I don't want to convince you of anything and your negative attitude doesn't deserve anything to be honest.

 

[Andy_J]

You are welcome to your opinions as WMD investors/beta testers. Please allow me to have mine. I may have a negative attitude according to you, but I prefer to be independent. Some would also say you guys have a positive and biased attitude. Just saying like.

 

[Andy_J]

don't assume that all console users are arcade morons who are under 25. Some of us just like the convenience, but would welcome a true SIM.

Robert, where did I assume that? Stop putting words into my mouth. Please don't make things up to bolster your argument here. For the record, in my opinion, you will not get a true sim on the consoles. And I don't assume all arcade morons are under 25 either.

 

[Chronus]

No offense, but the fact that experienced PC races who love games like Assetto and iRacing and rF2 disagree with you...and they are substantial...gives me hope that us console users will be saved from the likes of Forza, F1, GRID, and NFS. To what degree, I'm not sure.

I think every one of us - me, you, Andy, David and a few others - want CARS to be a good sim. Every one of us have our own predictions, true, but ultimately we hope CARS contradicts what some investors have it set to become.

As for consoles: as far as I have read, Kaz really is moving in the direction of credible simulations. Will the market at large allow it? Perhaps not. I hope he continues on.

So, given the much publicized "sim orientation" of Forza 5 by Greenawalt, I suspect both titles are trying to get a piece of the pie (i.e., the credible simulations pie).

For consoles, however, the market at large, the gamer muscles pulling the strings of purses all over the world, the major concern will be always the volume of cars, shiny graphics and social networking (perhaps with some real online racing thrown into the game system). So, your "silent" group, Robert, will not get exactly what they want from the likes of Turn10 or PD. Or Codies.

But...the heritage of SMS in terms of PC simulation may not carry over to consoles either.

Again: things aren't always as they look.

Get inside the major studios (SMS aren't one, neither are SIMBIN and even less Kunos) and you see what exactly supersedes all else in racing games development - and it's not what you and I hold dear (realism). Why should SMS be any different, given who the competition is (PD and Turn 10 are just 2 of the big players).

Personally, I think if pCARS comes even close to SIM, it will be regarded like Race Pro, but with looks and outstrip all projections.

Race Pro was thrashed by too many. Sadly.

If CARS, on consoles, beats that, I am sure you'll have Christmas sooner this year. I hope that happens.

Some would also say you guys have a positive and biased attitude. Just saying like.

I had a very interesting, candid, polite conversation with a WMD member weeks ago. We used to cross swords here and there. Both he and I have gotten our share of unpleasant experiences (on both sides of the fence) due to CARS.

However, not everybody is like this WMD member. Not everybody is willing to understand others.

And some are simple, robotic "agent provocateurs", recycling old arguments blurt out by a specific party line.

As you can see by the "attacks" from such an "agent" (perhaps some fancy themselves fighting NEO).

I'll say again: I have had extremely knowledgeable, well structured and informative discussions (even when disagreeing!) with several WMD members. I make a point in continuing discussing with them; the others...not worth our time, Andy. Like debris on track - avoid and move on.

UPDATE: forgot to remove the word "not" in the sentence "Again: things aren't[...]", I hope it's clearer now for Robert W..

 

[Mircea Rad]

@Chronus, If I remember correctly, we had some good discussions on the iRacing upcoming releases thread not so long ago about the NTM, HPD, etc. So now, just because I'm posting a tweaker file in order to help fellow simracers enjoy their experience, I'm debris to be avoided I'm not an investor, I never provoked anyone, I couldn't care less about who's driving what and I couldn't be more independent. I was merely trying to be helpful and I was met with a negative attitude that, from my point of view, is completely unfounded. It's like some people are very happy not to enjoy CARS at it's maximum potential and are really looking forward for this piece of software to come down crashing. I would call that an agenda, but hey, that's none of my business.