PC1 Latest Build testing.

[Andy_J]

As you all know, Ian gave me a free pass to test the latest builds and that's what I have been doing for the last week. I will report here as and when I see fit to tell all about my findings.

But I will say that the latest build (296) is quite good. Now lets make some sense of my statement. I used a Lotus 98T in helmet cam using my antique MOMO red wheel and I can honestly report it is coming along much better than I anticipated. The actual feel and immersion is damn fine at this point. The handling is strange at first compared to say...RF2 and FVA, but it grows on you within minutes. At this point in time, this actual car feels good. I like it and I love the Milan circuit. The damage model has come on leaps and bounds.

I am doing some more testing all of next week using a G27 and I will also test some of the other cars that don't interest me as much (I am a F1 nut) and see how the feel in comparison to Shift 2, because that is what I was initially comparing PCars to.

I would like the replay function to have a directors mode though. Something that jumps from action to action and from car to car.

Aside from that, the replay's do crash my PC quite often but I understand that is being looked at.

Watch this space.

 

[traind]

See, and handling is all I care for. I played sims like LFS, RACE 07 etc for years. The outdated graphics and sound doesn´t bother me a lot. With AC I can play with the forces in the steering wheel. I know when to stop accelerating and turning in or just accelerating or just turning in. I have the feeling that I´m melded with the car.

I agree handling feel is the most important part of a sim. Hopefully AC will have that nailed. Still, car selection, track selection, online stability, AI, graphics, sound, night and weather-- all end up adding a lot of value onto the core handling for me.

pCars has a lot going for it in many of these categories but the core handling will have to at least be competitive for the outstanding work in these other areas to matter. I think it will get there, even if it might not achieve the heights we are all assuming AC will.

 

[TherealWalkman]

I definitely agree on that. I say it would be a shame if all the graphics and sound stuff is top notch and the physics (or lets say FFB, its hard to tell whats what) are just "simcade". I hate that word and the people who invented it. Either its a sim or a failed attempt.
The thing that strikes the most is the problem they already had with GTR2. The unsafeable back end. Once it goes there is no stopping.

 

[Chris Partridge]

I definitely agree on that. I say it would be a shame if all the graphics and sound stuff is top notch and the physics (or lets say FFB, its hard to tell whats what) are just "simcade". I hate that word and the people who invented it. Either its a sim or a failed attempt.
The thing that strikes the most is the problem they already had with GTR2. The unsafeable back end. Once it goes there is no stopping.

That's a real problem with many sims -- including iRacing.

As for grip level, these are easily dialled out by set-up changes in many sims. One or two appropriate clicks for the front and rear ARB (stiffen the front, loosen the rear) and slightly stiffening up front springs and loosening the rears sorts out the worst sudden snap oversteer.

One thing we should be wary of as an industry is creating a tyre / FFB / physics model for sim racers, as odd as that sounds. Invariably, many of us sim racers push the car far too much into corners with too much speed, apply too much throttle exiting the corner and when the car spins complain about it.

Now, it is true that real life racers complain about grip too (or rather the lack of it). I have seen recently pro drivers in a sim who had not used a sim before struggle a fair amount before getting down to a decent time after a few hours use.

They were still relying on their instinctiveness of using their butt to determine grip levels, as is the correct way in RL. Yet in the sim all they had was visual and FFB cues, and when those kick in it is too late to save the spin quite often. But this does not mean that the tyre grip levels are incorrect, simply that the cues for telling the driver that the grip level is not there is incorrect.

 

[TherealWalkman]

I wouldn´t say that the grip level in PCARS is incorrect. But what the FFB makes out of this is very faulty. Those jolts feel like somebody would hammer on the side of my tires with a sledgehammer. The steering wheel becomes light and stiff and back again so that cannot rely on the information. Its like driving on oil slicks. I never had this in real life on a dry track. Last car I could test for many days was a standard Audi R8. Before that I had a Lotus Elise. Both cars are completely different but although the Elise is very direct its rather smooth driving, lets not talk about the overweight R8. In Pcars the steering wheel slams into your palm as soon as you hit the slightest bump, so hard that you think you drive up a curb. But I think that this is just a minor problem that will be solved. Maybe by some modder with a "realistic FFB" mod. The bigger problem is the absent grip info and connection between tyre and tarmac.

To get to the point, right now we get an exaggerated impression of what happens with the suspension but nothing usable from the tires. No rattling in the steering wheel when the front tires scrub with understeer, no difference between hard a doughy steering wheel when the the back steps out and you want to countersteer. And its impossible to get a feeling for the turn in. I constantly drive into the grass because the turn in happens so uneven. SO its impossible to get a feeling for cornering speed when your car constantly brakes out of line.

And thats the pointe, the core, the main reason of a sim.

I mean lets have a look on what the press says about Pcars . PCARS is all about eye candy, graphics, sound. Where is the sim in it?

Project cars
http://www.pcgameshardware.de/Proje...erliebtheit-beeindruckt-immer-wieder-1091562/
http://www.golem.de/news/project-cars-virtuelle-rennsimulation-in-4k-mit-60-hz-1309-101433.html
http://www.cinemablend.com/games/Pr...e-Shadows-Multi-Threaded-Shadowing-59659.html

 

[traind]

You have a point about the FFB... it is uneven right now at this point in development. Some cars feel good to me but many do not yet.

Graphics are a strong point with SMS. It isn't as important to us as handling (although I still absolutely love the look of pcars-- particularly the lighting model) but it does bring in the casual racer. But what the mainstream gaming press says about pcars really doesn't matter too much for our purposes here. Very few of them know how to judge a sim like those of us on this site would anyway

Importantly--everything I see at WMD is that the graphics are not the only emphasis. The majority of the talk by the developers is about the tire model, FFB, individual car handling details etc. If SMS doesn't end up with a good handling feel it will not be from lack of trying or because they squandered their efforts on graphics. FFB and physics is part science and part art. It takes iterative effort and some creativity. And time. Let's hope they find the right mix to be at least well above average in this regard. I think they are getting closer!

 

[Chris Partridge]

Yup -- the Project Cars front page is all about the visuals for example, hardling singing about the physics. But, I think that is probably fine at this stage of development. Once the physics and FFB is more settled, that's when to start shouting about it. We're still a year or so away from release. Much can change in that time.

 

[Andi Goodwin]

just fired it up once again to see what had changed .. id been looking at the latest pretty videos and thought yes ... lets have a go

Well FFB is still pants , the Ai are still lemmings unable to get out of the pits , cant make it past the 1st corner ; loads of flapping doors etc .... but the leaves looks pretty

And before some one says this is pre alpha .... stop it isnt ... they need to work on the physics , Ai , FFb and a few other things at the moment; ill wait another few updates and try again , but at the moment its not much fun

I really wish that this would start to live up to some of its promises and become a bit more complete

lets hope

Andi

 

[Nepa]

And before some one says this is pre alpha .... stop it isnt ...

At which stage is it now then?

 

[Peter]

At which stage is it now then?

2 years pre- alpha, 2 years alpha, 2years pre beta and 2 years beta. Release date 2020

 

[Chris Partridge]

2 years pre- alpha, 2 years alpha, 2years pre beta and 2 years beta. Release date 2020

I'll have my free Parker pen then with my Sun Alliance Over 50s Plan

 

[Andi Goodwin]

At which stage is it now then?

its at a beta stage
(open or closed depending on how you look at the financial model ie it was open until no one could buy into it anymore ... now its closed )
it always has been in beta from day one of release ..... its just a play on words really

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_release_life_cycle



Andi

 

[DrJustice]

its at a beta stage
(open or closed depending on how you look at the financial model ie it was open until no one could buy into it anymore ... now its closed )
it always has been in beta from day one of release ..... its just a play on words really

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_release_life_cycle



Andi

Nope. From your own reference: Beta: "...generally begins when the software is feature complete.".

pCARS is far from feature complete ATM. We haven't even entered alpha, which is the stage where formal testing begins. These terms are not a play on words, but used in software development to indicate the development stage. It's quite common for software to spend a long time being built up before it enters the alpha and beta stages.

 

[Andi Goodwin]

Nope. From your own reference: Beta: "...generally begins when the software is feature complete.".

pCARS is far from feature complete ATM. We haven't even entered alpha, which is the stage where formal testing begins. These terms are not a play on words, but used in software development to indicate the development stage. It's quite common for software to spend a long time being built up before it enters the alpha and beta stages.

Your quite amusing ... really .;;

in my opinion and many other peoples its just a play on words , yes you may add more features and add/ remove content as such , but this is far beyond any traditional in house pre alpha phase

this is at beta level , saying it is pre alpha allows you to side step stuff ... pre alpha says i should see the source codes on my box ... i dont

im not complaining .; its just some times using various stages to of a developement cycle and choosing one seems to be more marketing than actual truth

And the beta thing says "begins when the software is feature rich" ... but is prefixed by the world generally so that means there are exceptions ....

if we take the time to read the definitions there would be no way that we would slot this into the pre alpha phase honestly


keep up the good work

Andi

 

[DrJustice]

Again, no. And please lay off the mockery.

Pre alpha has nothing at all with you seeing the source code, and it has nothing to do with marketing. Neither does it have anything to do with there being some good looking assets in. As it happens it's not up to you to define this at will. The advancement of the stages of development is up to the developers, and the terminology is not a word play. I would offer to explain this in more detail, but we all know that's futile.

One can only wonder why it's so important to you and a few others to claim that pCARS is in beta. This claim gives a false impression of the state of the software.

Here are the facts:

- Only around 60% of the assets are in.
- Major parts of the system are still not implemented, like the single player career, pit stops, dedicated server, and a whole array of other big and small features.
- Major parts of the system is in the thick of development, e.g. the tyre model, weather system, user interface, track and car modelling etc..
- The full range of platforms is not determined yet, and infrastructure is still being built for some.

It's disinformation to he readers of the "Latest Build Testing" thread to claim that this game is in beta. I can't see us reaching alpha before next year (a Q1 release is unlikely).

 

[Bram Hengeveld]

Sometimes I wish we never opened this Pcars forum. Its the same story for 1 1/2 years now.

User X: Yes
User Y: No
User X: YES
User Y: NO
User X: YEEEEEES!
User Y: NOOOOO!

I hope when the game is finally out that we can start racing instead of the constant disagreeing and marketing/politics.

 

[DrJustice]

That is a very flippant and unhelpful response from a moderator, if I'm honest. I can agree that this sub forum isn't doing much good, though

The beta claim is false. Simple as that. It's not backed up by any facts or indeed the reality of the situation. On Andi's part it's an argument from ignorance. On my part it's an argument from indisputable facts (ref. previous posting).

The terms of this forum states that content which is false should not be posted. I would therefore expect the mods to support corrections when such postings are made. Do you not want this sub forum to have a semblance of credibility and honesty?

So for the last time from me this time around (although I promise to contribute factual information in this and other areas if needed, and if I can be bothered):

Dear readers, the game is far from finished. The current builds are pre alpha. From the current state, we can reasonably expect it to be near feature complete and having development of major parts being complete ca. medio 2014. In the mean time the builds will vary a lot as development goes ahead.

 

[Andi Goodwin]

i apologise to everyone for possibly misleading people , what i typed was based on my opinion from my understanding of how stages of software development are commonly named and my personal take on what phase pcars was at within my understanding of this process .
i understand that the pcars team also has the right to have there own opinion on what phase of development the game is at and accept this right without question.

As i said before i apologise for posting something that was an opinion

Andi

 

[Kurupt CDN]

Can we all agree on the fact it's not complete yet and still has a ways to go
The new tire model has only been in existence for 13 weeks now and only a few cars have it implemented.
I'll agree the ones that haven't been touched are terrible but the little work they have done on some have made big improvements....not perfect but I feel is heading in the right direction.
The Ai was disabled a few builds backs for some reason ?
I think nic Hamilton has stepped upped of late and given some good input regarding physics that has helped as well.
Personally I think a lot of people take this hard core sim thing a bit to seriously, at the end of the day they are just video games sim or simcade
What attracts me to a race game is content, visuals, sound, feel and ingame options. ATM asides from feel I think there doing quit well!
The one thing I don't understand tho is people that have bought into the project and complain about features in non pcar forums.....why not voice your complaint there so it can be heard and addressed?
That's the beauty of the project

 

[Chris Partridge]

"Rome Wasn't Built in a Day" is particularly applicable to software development.

I think some of the problem is that the rate of development of pCARS -- one big build at the end of the week, several smaller ones in between, and that development being relatively open compared to most dev studios, has made people think "well why can't it be right by now?" The answer, of course, is time, effort, experimentation, trial-and-error and fixing.

80% of results is the determination to get there -- they've got that in bucketloads so it'll be job done on release as far as I'm concerned.

 

[RaceNut]

Many of us may not have ever experienced a title at these early stages of development. Pcars looks great and that may contribute to expectations that it should already drive great as well. Steady progress is being made on the car handling and FFB. Those who have concerns about the direction of the physics and FFB can and should be giving their feedback in the Physics Focus Testing forums to help make Pcars be as good as it can be. Otherwise, it's a bit like voting - if you don't vote, you essentially surrender your right to complain when you are unhappy with the results IMO. Now is your chance to have input into Pcars development.