Is VR dead?

[RCHeliguy]

Hmmm....

"Join us on Sep 20th for a deep-dive into the world of #VR simulation gaming – and get a chance to win a Varjo Aero!

At this 2-year 'Aeroversary' celebration, you can also learn about an exciting development that is charting a new course for Varjo Aero."

and this...

Bestware is the single "Elite" Varjo reseller in Europe, and they were selling the Aero until a week or so ago. Right now the Aero is no longer listed, has a 404 page instead: https://bestware.com/en/varjo-aero.html

The link to Aero on their custom Varjo page points to the same 404 page: https://www.schenker-tech.de/varjo

The XR-3 and VR-3 are still sold by them though. https://bestware.com/en/virtual-reality/vr-headsets/varjo

 

[gamma123152]

Hmmm....

"Join us on Sep 20th for a deep-dive into the world of #VR simulation gaming – and get a chance to win a Varjo Aero!

At this 2-year 'Aeroversary' celebration, you can also learn about an exciting development that is charting a new course for Varjo Aero."

and this...

Bestware is the single "Elite" Varjo reseller in Europe, and they were selling the Aero until a week or so ago. Right now the Aero is no longer listed, has a 404 page instead: https://bestware.com/en/varjo-aero.html

The link to Aero on their custom Varjo page points to the same 404 page: https://www.schenker-tech.de/varjo

The XR-3 and VR-3 are still sold by them though. https://bestware.com/en/virtual-reality/vr-headsets/varjo

There's in my opinion a big change that Varjo comes up with something new/an Aero 2 to compete against the Pimax Crystal. The Aero is simply a bad deal since the Crystal is on the market so it's not surprising. I'm wondering what it will be.

 

[RCHeliguy]

2023 is turning out to be one heck of a year for VR!

The variety of technologies and the variety of form factors is through the ceiling.

miniLED, micro OLED
Aspheric, pancake
inside out, light house
tethered, stand alone
minimalist, kitchen sink, and... modular.

Apple and Samsung making moves on spatial computing.

We saw Hypervision's prototype 4 displays with 240H 95V FOV !

And we still haven't seen what Valve is about to unveil!

While Meta is holding the fort for the mass market with $500 headset systems, look where the enthusiast market has gone! A modern headset and GPU to drive it well is now around $3000.

The fact that Apple can announce a $3500 headset with a straight face shows the direction we are actually going. I won't guess what the new Samsung headset will cost that will try to compete with Apple.

Calling 2023 a banner year is interesting because all of these efforts have been going on for years. We are just seeing a convergence of new technologies that are coming together now.

What will happen to the VR market now that the big guns are in the water? Apple and Samsung are no joke. Samsung bailed when WMR fizzled, but if they create a spatial computing device, creating other devices sharing the same tech wouldn't be hard assuming they think the VR gaming market is remotely worth pursuing. Meta got a course correction from Apple and they are back at the drawing boards.

Apple, Samsung, Meta and to a lesser extent Valve are where all the economies of scale will be and if they actually take VR seriously, things are just starting to get interesting. These companies are also the only companies with viable app stores as additional revenue sources and the resources to go head to head. Other companies will fight over their table scraps for new technology and customers.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

2023 is turning out to be one heck of a year for VR!

Yay, finally!

 

[RCHeliguy]

Now the most comfortable headset that he has ever worn bar none.

It sounds like with the improvements in edge to edge clarity, improved interface that appears to more perfectly center his head, solid build quality, etc.. that if it had no glare he would would consider this his daily driver now.

 

[gamma123152]

Now the most comfortable headset that he has ever worn bar none.

It sounds like with the improvements in edge to edge clarity, improved interface that appears to more perfectly center his head, solid build quality, etc.. that if it had no glare he would would consider this his daily driver now.

It's far from "no glare":
" @seraphimelegy6747 How is the glare compared to the Pico 4 "
"@VRFlightSimGuy Pico 4 is much better in terms of glare and God rays "

But still:
"Available HERE through my affiliate link HERE (your support is greatly appreciated): "

I wonder why the glare and the god rays are so bad, since both the Pico and the BSB both got pancake lenses.

 

[RCHeliguy]

I was specifically pointing that out that he still had issues with the glare, but he also seems to really like it.

The next thing he is doing makes a lot of sense. Most of the real world does not constantly switch between different headsets and like it or not we all adapt to the shortcoming of whatever we are using. So he is going to spend some time exclusively using the Bigscreen to see how he feels about it over time.

He mentioned in an earlier review that after using it a while he stopped noticing it. So he is going to see if that does in fact happen long term.

The fact is that we all draw lines in the sand and say how we would never accept this or that, but in the end we find something that works well for us and we adapt. It's human nature.

For all the issues you have with the Aero, I'm finding it works pretty well for me, but my biggest complaint is the weight of it and how much it moves around on my face. So I'm very optimistic that the Bigscreen will be the headset that I'm looking for.

It's getting closer.... Hopefully in the next couple weeks I'll see mine.

 

[gamma123152]

For all the issues you have with the Aero, I'm finding it works pretty well for me, but my biggest complaint is the weight of it and how much it moves around on my face.

I had so many issues indeed with the Aero. But not that from what I remember.

And yes if you wear a new hmd long enough then you could probably adjust your brain to the shortcomings(but to be honest, my brain still isn't adjusted to the slight color shifting of the Pimax Crystal(the only real issue that I still have with it), I still notice daily that the color blue/purple moves more than other colors after all these months of usage and that's only very minor shifting compared to the Aero). But in that case you're simply adjusting/trying to adjust your brain to downgrade. I'm not willing to do that because I don't see a reason for it and I always prefer the opposite: an upgrade.

The BSB probably lives up to the hype for you since you already accepted all the known issues with the BSB and you're prepared to accept them all for only one benefit in return: the lowest weight. Weight traded for: lower (upscaled) resolution and/or hz, much lower nits(dim display compared to Aero/Crystal), no eye tracking/DFR and massive glare/god rays even much worse than the pico 4(which already has a lot of noticeable glare I understood).

Yes it's the lowest weight for sure, so I expect that you'll enjoy it because that's the end goal for you. I never had issues with the weight of any of my headsets and I never heard anyone complaining about it once they tried VR at my home. So in all honesty I still don't understand this "issue" but I still see all the other issues... so yes it's very subjective in the end what we prioritize.

 

[RCHeliguy]

The Bigscreen has no color shift and no Moire'. In that respect it completely bests the Aero and Crystal as Steve mentioned when he mentioned how ALL other headsets had obvious issues with the sky. In terms of blacks it still beats the Crystal once again as Steve mentioned in the video.

So it does have better blacks, better color and is more comfortable. It's also extremely efficient because it doesn't require a compositor and requires a lot less setup because you don't need to dial in settings to make it work acceptably. You simply plug it in and go.

The Beyond also doesn't have that issue with all aspheric lenses when you look at a place fixed in space and move your headset around. Admit it or don't but the distortions are there, very much so in the Aero and also in the Crystal. Some people are highly intolerant of this and refer to it as a swimming effect that makes them nauseous.

The days of big bulky heavy headsets will come to an end and when everyone has a small headset, everyone will agree that it is much better. Until that time people can continue to deny this.

 

[blekenbleu]

I wonder why the glare and the god rays are so bad, since both the Pico and the BSB both got pancake lenses.

All pancake lens designs are not equal..

Optical artifacts have causes; common causes for glare (including god rays) are scattering and reflection, which mainly occur at air interfaces. Difference arise from:

• differences in lens coatings
• differences in lens materials
  some nominally transparent materials provoke more dispersion
• differences in lens geometries
• differences in apertures
• differences in scattered ray management
  Even expensive microscopes and telescopes have been improved
  by amateurs adding e.g. flocking to suppress stray light.

VR Flight Sim Guy noting [7:30/11:12] glare at the bottom suggests

• BigScreen was perhaps too aggressive with field of view aperture for lens size
• BigScreen may yet have an opportunity to improve e.g. flocking in optical cavities
• VR Flight Sim Guy should perhaps experiment with eye black.

 

[gamma123152]

Admit it or don't but the distortions are there, very much so in the Aero and also in the Crystal

100% sure for the Aero. It's a major issue and I couldn't live with it at all; warping/distortion etc. I'm highly intolerant for that, so that's the first thing that I looked for once I received the Crystal and I couldn't believe it too after my experience with the Aero; but they are really not there/they are perfectly hidden/compensated by the barrel distortion profile. Bradley talked about it because he had it clearly wrong on his head(if I place it to high/low on my head I have them too), but in fact, if you have the Crystal correctly on your head(which is pretty easy, once you configured the headstrap correctly) there are not distortions/warping all.

better color and is more comfortable

This is not true, the colors are about the same/have around the same DCI-P3 measured, but because of the 2-3 time more nits of the Crystal, the colors show much better/nicer in the Crystal especially during daytime racing(>95% of the races). And I personally cannot imagine a more comfortable HMD so I'm not sure about that. Weight is not everyhing but maybe you're right about that, I never had both headsets so I coudn't judge.

a lot less setup because you don't need to dial in settings to make it work acceptably

What's there more to setup with the Crystal compared to the BSB? Installing Pimax Play+PimaxXR? That's about it and it's 5 mins. work so I'm not sure what you meant with this. With both headsets you need to tweak OpenXR/OpenComposite/OpenXR toolkit etc. all in about the same way to get the max. out of it.

The days of big bulky heavy headsets will come to an end and when everyone has a small headset, everyone will agree that it is much better. Until that time people can continue to deny this.

Nobody denies that smaller is better, including me. Of course it is, but not with all the sacrifices, all those cons are simply not worth it for me. I prefer higher resolution/90hz+more nits+no glare/god rays+adjustable IPD+eye tracking+in case of a future Somnium VR1/wide FoV lenses of the Crystal: more FoV. I prefer each of these subjects more than weight.

The Bigscreen has no color shift

I understood from a reviewer that the BSB also had minor color shift going on. Not quite sure to what extend but it had color shift. I'm NOT going to rewatch all 100 reviews of them again to find the quote and to prove it to you here but I'm sure that I've heared it. Maybe it's solved now, maybe not, who knows. But the fact is, is that almost nobody complains about the color shifts of the Pimax Crystal(not sure why?) but I see everything so I complain about it and there surely is to much color shift going on with the Crystal with the color blue/purple. Pimax promised to solve this with a future update, but I'm not sure if they are able to do that. But the color shift of the Aero was about ~5-10 times worse from what I remember so it's really minor, probably around the same level as the BSB.

 

[RCHeliguy]

With both headsets you need to tweak OpenXR/OpenComposite/OpenXR toolkit etc. all in about the same way to get the max. out of it.

Sorry, but no. There is none of that with the Bigscreen.

Also I've heard ZERO about color shifting with the BSB. It's actually impossible because of the pixel layout. It is immune to that kind of issue. If someone is suggesting it has these issues, they are making it up.

I have heard about Crystal issues with color shifts even after getting your head placed properly.

 

[gamma123152]

Sorry, but no. There is none of that with the Bigscreen.

Also I've heard ZERO about color shifting with the BSB. It's actually impossible because of the pixel layout. It is immune to that kind of issue. If someone is suggesting it has these issues, they are making it up.

I have heard about Crystal issues with color shifts even after getting your head placed properly.

Good good.

Yes the Crystal still has color shifts when you have your head placed properly. Somehow I'm one of the only users that is seriously irritated at it(together with maybe 3-5 others, really not many). So not so easy to push Pimax to fix it, but they promised that it's on the agenda and that they will get it fixed in the future. We'll see. I'm still happy with the Crystal but yes it's a downside for sure.

 

[RCHeliguy]

FWIW I just had a discussion on another forum and one of the tests I definitely want to run on the Bigscreen is playing Dirt Rally 2.0 at 75Hz. I've been told over and over again how 75Hz on the Beyond feels like 90Hz and 90Hz feels like 120Hz.

I've always found that if I didn't have a rock solid 90fps in Dirt Rally 2.0 it didn't feel very good. I consider that title a vomit comet. So I'm very curious if this 75 feels like 90 is just an artifact that works well in some titles or if it holds up to a title where I'm bouncing around violently.

I'm also going to be curious how 75 and 90 work in FPS games. This is an area where I have always felt more fps are important. I loved playing at 120fps with the Index. At higher frame rates I've always felt like I lined up my shots better. The biggest thing I notice is when I overshoot my target as in moving my arms to line up a target and releasing when I think I'm centered but I've actually moved past my target.

 

[Pazop]

I'm an old simracer, over 60, I've known everything about car racing on computers and consoles.
I have a 3080ti, a Quest2 which cost me 450 euros with a very good quality head strap to replace the one supplied which is worthless, corrective lenses for myopia and an off-brand PC data and power supply connection cable but impeccable for long sessions, sorry for those who dream of headsets for 3000 euros and it can be used wirelessly for games other than simus for those who are interested (not me).
I drive above all with Assetto Corsa +CM+CSP+Pure.
I shoot in 80 frames seconds, never any discomfort.
Thanks to CM and CSP and Pure I was able to greatly increase the quality of Assetto Corsa's graphics, it's splendid.
I don't understand why so many simracers have so much trouble with VR, you just need to spend some time at the beginning and then you're at peace and you can really be immersed like never before in a car simulation.
Everything is incredible, you look wherever you want, everything appears in real size.
From time to time for work I find myself in Poland (hello Polish friends), in Lodz, there is a magnificent place called the Manufactura where it is possible to ride with very good equipment on AC in triple screens.
Although the triple is for me much more immersive than the single screen I do not experience at all the immersion that I feel in VR.
Other good VR sims for those starting out: AMS2, Dirt Rally2, rFactor2, you need the most powerful graphics card possible but mine (3080ti) is more than sufficient.
That's my opinion, after all, everyone has their own.

 

[HugoB]

I'm an old simracer, over 60, I've known everything about car racing on computers and consoles.
I have a 3080ti, a Quest2 which cost me 450 euros with a very good quality head strap to replace the one supplied which is worthless, corrective lenses for myopia and an off-brand PC data and power supply connection cable but impeccable for long sessions, sorry for those who dream of headsets for 3000 euros and it can be used wirelessly for games other than simus for those who are interested (not me).
I drive above all with Assetto Corsa +CM+CSP+Pure.
I shoot in 80 frames seconds, never any discomfort.
Thanks to CM and CSP and Pure I was able to greatly increase the quality of Assetto Corsa's graphics, it's splendid.
I don't understand why so many simracers have so much trouble with VR, you just need to spend some time at the beginning and then you're at peace and you can really be immersed like never before in a car simulation.
Everything is incredible, you look wherever you want, everything appears in real size.
From time to time for work I find myself in Poland (hello Polish friends), in Lodz, there is a magnificent place called the Manufactura where it is possible to ride with very good equipment on AC in triple screens.
Although the triple is for me much more immersive than the single screen I do not experience at all the immersion that I feel in VR.
Other good VR sims for those starting out: AMS2, Dirt Rally2, rFactor2, you need the most powerful graphics card possible but mine (3080ti) is more than sufficient.
That's my opinion, after all, everyone has their own.

I agree with your sentiments regarding VR and simracing. I also drive 90% AC+CSP+SOL with my Index, 1080Ti and overclocked 6850K to 4.2GHz all cores, it took me quite some time to tune all the settings to achieve 90fps, had to make some sacrifices but CM with CSP give so many options to tweak I managed to strike a balance and now just load my favorite car+track combo and drive, drive, drive.

There's no better feeling in the world to hit that corner perfectly in VR, especially with SFX100 motion, harness tensioner and Buttkickers, I don't even envy the people I know that drive a real Porsche/BMW-M, they mostly sit in the garage or are stuck in traffic or limited by other cars on the road when weather is fine or paying speeding camera tickets or expensive repairs.

I truly feel satisfied with VR+motion to the point I've been pushing off buying my dream-car GR Yaris now since it's arrival, and am now rather saving up for the next big VR headset+5090+15900K+surge actuator.

VR simracing really does scratch my racing itch enough and will for the foreseeable future, which looks bright indeed.

What I can add to your list though is RBR in VR, even though it's a very old game, with all the mods and plugins the community has made for it (look for the complete install kit on Rallysimfans.hu) it blew me away for the fantastic physics, to the point I never play DR2 anymore because this RBR feels so much more alive. Yes it looks rather basic but in VR still great and runs easily on modern PCs. Give it a try and if you haven motion you'll know what I mean, the dirt feels complex and detailed and the car moves over the bumps and holes in the surface like a real car does, maybe the most addictive sim for me now with VR+motion.

 

[RCHeliguy]

FYI, he says that in game he can't tell the difference between 75 and 90Hz, and will use 90fps for games, but for watching 4K videos or using virtual desktop he'll use 75fps. He spent 75% of the time talking about the Bigscreen and how great it is and how it needs to be the direction headsets are going with.

He said the BSB is his preferred PCVR headset and used the term kitchen sink approach at least 3 times talking about the Pimax. He mentioned "if you can bear it, if you can wear it". He didn't see how that is what people want in the future and said Pimax needed to rethink their design before releasing another headset.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Also Pimax 12K trade up program from Crystal announced!

 

[gamma123152]

've been told over and over again how 75Hz on the Beyond feels like 90Hz and 90Hz feels like 120Hz.

75hz = 75hz and 90hz = 90hz. Some people also say over and over again that they don't see any pixels shimmering with the Reverb G2 or some people even say that the Quest 2 looks the same as the Varjo Aero. All kind of nonsense you can find on the internet for whatever reasons. Some people also say that they can hear massive differences between a 5 euro speaker cable and a 20000 euro speaker cable. All nonsense too. When it comes to video/audio, stay with the facts.

Fact is that I run DR2 on 90fps/Hz locked with zero framedrops in all weather conditions with 100% render resolution and 2* MSAA or with 90% render resolution+4*MSAA+CAS on the Pimax Crystal. This with some mixed not visible fixed foveated rendering enabled and some ingame settings tweaked but most(relevant settings) on ultra. And that's with 4315*5100 per eye..

The BSB has even a lower resolution so it could easily run 90hz/fps locked with DR2. But yes, upscaled resolution.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Interesting:

Also interesting was that this same person said that if you wear contacts rather than using inserts, that the glare is better and that looking around quickly with the headset staying in place perfectly without losing clarity is a big deal.

Since I wear contacts in VR this may be good news for me.

The whole post is here.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1702738162450047154