Is VR dead?

[RCHeliguy]

Thanks for the review, that pretty much sums up the experience of people not having major issues or having drawn conclusions too early with immature firmware or plastic lenses.

One thing i have not found a decisive answer for is, whether the headset is prone to moving on your head with stronger motion going on. I guess it would not be different than with other larger Pimax headsets, but coming from a lightweight G2 it would be interesting to hear some first-hand experience.

Maybe @wajdi will fill in that bit of data soon.

 

[gamma123152]

Thanks for the review, that pretty much sums up the experience of people not having major issues or having drawn conclusions too early with immature firmware or plastic lenses.

One thing i have not found a decisive answer for is, whether the headset is prone to moving on your head with stronger motion going on. I guess it would not be different than with other larger Pimax headsets, but coming from a lightweight G2 it would be interesting to hear some first-hand experience.

Good question. Yes the headset surely moves more when moving your head compared to the G2 due to the weight. With sim racing it stays properly in position with my headshape. But with fast roomscale action games such as beatsaber I expect that it could become an issue.

A other aspect that I could note because of this weight-subject is that I have a buttkicker installed in my chair. Due to comfort reasons I have the knob for tightening the headset very loose(with the G2 I had it tighter because otherwise I couldn't stay in the sweet spot). So the crystal "float's" on top of my head. When the buttkicker activates with the bumps in the road/curbs/rough surface as dirt Rally, the bumps are clearly more visible in the vr image that you see compared to the G2. The tracking is really sensitive, more sensitive then the G2. It feels more realistic for me, this effect, so for sim racing I don't see it as a downside. But this effect could be changed by tightening the knob on the back of the Crystal a bit more, but in that case the comfort will be less(the issue that I have with the G2(forehead pressure) could then come back).

To reduce the movement of the headset you could mod the HMD with this: https://www.amazon.com/LICHIFIT-Cushion-Comfortable-Headband-Accessories/dp/B08NXCTM1R

I ordered one already in advance for the moment that the lighthouse tracking is released(maybe to even further reduce it I will install my G2 comfort mod also on the Crystal, not sure yet). I will try some roomscale games once that's the case, I probably won't use it before that moment. I will report back here once it's installed and the lighthouse module is arrived.

 

[gamma123152]

Maybe @wajdi will fill in that bit of data soon.

If you have any questions you can ask it, I'm not hesitant to answer questions.

 

[gamma123152]

Yes I have motion and this is my only concern …. I had zero issues with tracking/motion with my previous oculus S and G2 Reverb inside-outside tracking with almost zero View drifting…… I hope it will be the same with the Crystal .
My pc spec 13900K/4090/64GB RAM are ok I guess.

I can note that I had sometimes "view drifting" with my G2. So that after driving for a while I had to recenter again. But with the Crystal I did not have this issue yet, once it's centered, it stayed locked in position at all races. (Except the fact that I fully lost tracking a few times(3 in total maybe?) In the first 30 seconds after putting the Crystal on my head).

I also had an issue with the G2 that I had to clear the "room data" once in a while otherwise the tracking started drifting on its own when moving my head, I also didn't experience this issue with the Crystal. It never drifted extra/on its own.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Interesting.
You can skip to 10:44 unless you want to here him talk about history.

Basically he is saying that Valve used SteamDeck as a development area for a stand alone computing device that will be part of the next Valve headset, and that they have flushed out XR dynamic pass through features with the next "deckard" being a stepping stone to being a competitor to the Apple Vision system with a full open Linux system which will be the completely open in comparison to the closed Apple system.

He's also saying that while it will have stand alone computing, that it will have wireless PCVR connectivity and tethered support as well.

The thing that I'm curious about is the section he mentioned about the Valve Index missteps. Specifically that they put a product out with a Frunk and pass through cameras with the expectation that 3rd parties were going to develop those capabilities, but Valve never really followed through with encouraging use of the cameras etc.. So the question is whether they can start a whole open ecosystem based on an open Linux architecture for a headset or if developers will ignore it. I think whether that happens is up to them encouraging this development, sharing proofs of concepts for people to work with etc..

Related to this handheld device being related to headset development, I understand that the real reason that Pimax introduced their handheld device was to be to justify ordering the processing chips in enough volume to keep the price of their headsets in line. Their handheld device shares the same processors as well. Of course if the hand held device bombs, I'm not sure how much help that will be.

 

[cnhoff]

Are you saying that it is supposed to be big and clunky and will have its own battery too?

 

[RCHeliguy]

Are you saying that it is supposed to be big and clunky and will have its own battery too?

Battery is possible, but I expect it will be properly engineered and optimized for size and weight so that it isn't clunky, heavy or large. I also expect the battery will be optional.

Taking the Somnium as a starting point with eye tracking at 650g without inside out cameras and hand tracking and a 125H FOV actually measured from they eye piece as a starting point. Then reducing size and weight going from aspheric to pancake lenses an possible increasing the FOV even more than that. Then taking a few cues from the Apple vision. I'd expect it closer to 600g, 125-140H FOV.

But until there is an official announcement, it's hard to know for sure.

I'm expecting it to blow the doors off my Aero, future BSB and the Crystal for image quality, FOV and features. However I think the BSB will be in a category of it's own at least in the short term, but possibly in the longer term as well.

I think other headsets will shrink with time like the Quest 3 dropping 40% in size over the Quest 2, but I think the BSB may have it's own niche for a while. After the 5090 is released maybe they will put out something with more FOV, but still without eye tracking for example. Once again, just guessing.

 

[metalnwood]

I would be interested in seeing linux in VR, I live in linux on all my computers when I am not on my simrig which is windows. Thats more appealing to me than an apple ecosystem but I am far from the majority there lol.

I see the pimax has a 6000mah battery, the steamdeck a 5300mah battery - the pimax uses anadreno chip with 50% less power draw then the chip in the steamdeck (which seems to go for 1.5-2hr)

I don't know what that means for the index, maybe a pocket battery the same as the apple or as a counterweight like the pimax. I do know that the apple device is very power efficient so that index battery is going to have to be a fair bit bigger to last the same distance.

 

[RCHeliguy]

I raised this point a while ago.
I was told that the earlier plastic lenses had a focal range below 50cm and have been told by one person that it was too short for them, but that the glass lenses are a better.

It still seems interesting to me that Pimax won't answer this question and no one knows.

The people asking are mostly a but older and concerned about presbyopia. As someone who already uses 0.7-1.0+ reading glasses. I can understand the concern. I haven't had an issue with the 85cm focal length Aero.

 

[RCHeliguy]

I would be interested in seeing linux in VR, I live in linux on all my computers when I am not on my simrig which is windows. Thats more appealing to me than an apple ecosystem but I am far from the majority there lol.

I see the pimax has a 6000mah battery, the steamdeck a 5300mah battery - the pimax uses anadreno chip with 50% less power draw then the chip in the steamdeck (which seems to go for 1.5-2hr)

I don't know what that means for the index, maybe a pocket battery the same as the apple or as a counterweight like the pimax. I do know that the apple device is very power efficient so that index battery is going to have to be a fair bit bigger to last the same distance.

It is an interesting direction. In that video he explained how you could exit out and drop to a linux prompt.

I think if they can tap into the Linux community and get something started, what happens after that could get interesting.

Of course everything is so speculative at this point, it's hard to know what we will see when it actually gets here.

 

[metalnwood]

I raised this point a while ago.
I was told that the earlier plastic lenses had a focal range below 50cm and have been told by one person that it was too short for them, but that the glass lenses are a better.

It still seems interesting to me that Pimax won't answer this question and no one knows.

Do you think perhaps there is a conspiracy about the focal length of their lenses? What could the conspiracy be do you think? That some people find VR hard to use without a prescription lens of some sort?

 

[RCHeliguy]

Do you think perhaps there is a conspiracy about the focal length of their lenses? What could the conspiracy be do you think? That some people find VR hard to use without a prescription lens of some sort?

Prescription inserts are in wide use by many. There is no arguing about that.

And if this is no big deal, then why does Pimax feel the need to keep this information to themselves? Every other manufacturer is open about this information.

 

[cnhoff]

It is a little bit of a mystery to me, why you keep on your personal crusade against Pimax only forwarding concerns, rumors, bad experiences etc. from certain Discords, while you never follow-up with the end of the story from the same Discords...

I am not disregarding the shortcomings at all, but a few examples would be:

- software and setup issues: initially many, now more and more people stating it took them 20min to get going. I remember you saying your Aero sometimes was not recognized in your initial statements, seems to be resolved with later SW versions, so...

- focal distance: yes there is concerns from earlier preproduction samples presumably with plastic lenses. Many people with presbyopic vision again claiming no issues with current production samples. One claiming, that the focal distance must be greater than 85cm by experiment.

- features not being ready: Pimax just finished eye-tracking and auto-IPD, seems to work well and gives stable results and expected performance increase. Even the almighty Aero has not had all features enabled in the beginning.

- optical flaws: most people claiming it is the best visual experience you can have in VR, period. Clarity across the whole FOV, FOV itself, distortion being great with the glass lenses (some claim better than the Aero), local dimming in the medium setting with no blooming and great blacks, colors, contrast etc.

- battery, weight and comfort: most people claiming the headset is very well balanced and very comfortable to wear for many hours. battery is lasting 6-8 hours on a single charge. Would most want a smaller, lighter headset without batteries - sure, but what's the point if people like it anyway?

The list goes on ... I don't want to spam that thread with snippets of every positive post or video.

The Crystal is not for everybody, I just don't understand the hate and energy going into this.

 

[metalnwood]

And if this is no big deal, then why does Pimax feel the need to keep this information to themselves? Every other manufacturer is open about this information.

I have seen some bad, devious and hurtful things in my time. This one is just not rising to the top imo.

 

[RCHeliguy]

I have seen some bad, devious and hurtful things in my time. This one is just not rising to the top imo.

True enough, in terms of the things Pimax has said and done, this isn't even significant.

 

[gamma123152]

I raised this point a while ago.
I was told that the earlier plastic lenses had a focal range below 50cm and have been told by one person that it was too short for them, but that the glass lenses are a better.

This is EXACTLY the feeling that I had with the poly/plastic lenses. The focal range felt super low with the poly lenses, it's much much better/very good(I have zero issues with it) with the glass lenses.

So I don't know what the exact focal range is of the glass lenses, but it's surely higher then the poly lenses that I had.

 

[gamma123152]

I'm expecting it to blow the doors off my Aero, future BSB and the Crystal for image quality

Why do you expect that the Somnium is going to have much better image quality than the Pimax Crystal?

I actually expect the opposite, because they use XTAL's experience for their distortion profile, and XTAL is known to have one of the worst distortion profiles in VR when it comes to warping/edge distortion. And that part is for me the most important part for good image quality in VR.

Second reason for this is that they blow an aspherical lens up to a 125FoV while maintaining 35PPD. Pimax currently has a high FoV 35PPD lens in development, and the image quality of this higher FoV lens doesn't match with the 104/104 FoV glass lens accoring to the people that actually saw it. Aspherical lenses and high FoV is not something that goes well together, for that reason Pimax chose to combine aspherical lens with fresnel with their 12K to achieve high FoV and acceptable distortion.

 

[wajdi]

Pimax should ship my Crystal tomorrow so o should receive it in 7 days however I was speaking to a guy from my PT motion WhatsApp group and has already the Crystal. He said that the tracking on tracks with banking like Daytona in horrible….. while it’s good in normal circuits.

 

[metalnwood]

Pimax should ship my Crystal tomorrow so o should receive it in 7 days however I was speaking to a guy from my PT motion WhatsApp group and has already the Crystal. He said that the tracking on tracks with banking like Daytona in horrible….. while it’s good in normal circuits.

yeah you really do need the motion compensation on daytona . it is one of the tracks that really has you moving in the car without it.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Why do you expect that the Somnium is going to have much better image quality than the Pimax Crystal?

Not Somnium, Valve. I was just using the Somnium as a starting point in the weight/size discussion. Valve should have a microOLED pancake solution and it should be relatively compact very high resolution and have a pile of features.

But it is still unobtanium.

The Somnium will have the best FOV for a modern headset. I can't speak to the image quality. It uses similar tech to the Crystal, so I wouldn't expect it to be significantly better/worse.

FWIW, I've seen a number of people now say that they think the next Index will either be something groundbreaking or a complete failure. It is interesting that this dichotomy has started to present itself recently.