Is VR dead?

[ltnordb]

Gets what? Looks like a long live video.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Gets what? Looks like a long live video.

The huge impact that this new Apple headset will have and how much of a breakthrough product this is.

You get a real sense of this in the first 15 minutes where he does his best to explain why the people who are downplaying the significance of this headset don't understand what they've done.

He also explained how everyone will be copying things from this headset.

over 5000 patents for the Vision Pro
10 years, Billions of dollars

450 grams
11.5Mp per eye
HDR dynamic range
double white backlit micro OLED
90 or 120 fps
Pass through quality equal to Varjo AR-3
FOV is supposed to be just under Valve Index ~ 110 FOV
Takes pictures and stereoscopic video while you are wearing it.
Spatial Audio that is supposed to be good quality. He mentioned it had large drivers and people said it sounded good.

Will run ANY iOS app in the app store on day 1.

Interesting that Chet from Valve said everyone at Valve was smiling because Apple included the full Monty with this headset. The guy at Valve said that Apple has created a new market with one product.

Many comments about how Meta's Quest Pro was supposed to be this, and they failed miserably after buying many companies and spending billions they have little to show for it.

 

[metalnwood]

Apple isn't giving this stuff away for free to other companies, and like you said 5000 patents? Lets hope it doesn't stifle rather than promote VR usage..

But at the end of the day, while we are all for tech advancement, it doesnt make me want this particular headset anymore. I can appreciate all the stuff its doing but I have no application for all the stuff its doing and there are still questions, like the one we ask of any other headset - what is the fov.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Apple isn't giving this stuff away for free to other companies, and like you said 5000 patents? Lets hope it doesn't stifle rather than promote VR usage..

But at the end of the day, while we are all for tech advancement, it doesnt make me want this particular headset anymore. I can appreciate all the stuff its doing but I have no application for all the stuff its doing and there are still questions, like the one we ask of any other headset - what is the fov.

I have no apple devices, so I can't use it for anything.

The FOV is supposed to be about what everyone else is giving us lately. Just shy of the Index.

Brad did make the comment, "So much porn is going to be recorded with these", since it has stereoscopic cameras.

Also mentioned that Samsung is working very hard on getting an AR headset to release at the same time and suggested that all android apps will likely work on it and Meta has nothing to compare with that.

 

[RCHeliguy]

He also covered the Pimax headband loop snapping off in shipping and the Pimax apology for the packaging, and the poor quality plastic lenses they shipped that many users hate to get units out the door, etc...

He shares the same feelings I have about Pimax and said he didn't even want to review the headset, but he said that someone gave him a headset to use because they said the tracking wasn't good enough for beat saber.

He did give his quick review.

He said for him, it's too heavy and he can't wear it for more than 30 minutes.
He said there was a lot of blooming with local dimming.
He said even if you set it to 120Hz in only runs 90Hz.
He was able to verify this.

He said he couldn't see why anyone who wasn't just a simmer would buy this headset.

He said the local dimming didn't work, then it crashed and local dimming started to work. He said the audio sounded good on one use and on another would sound way off.

Then he critiqued Pimax for advertising a much higher FOV than it actually delivered and showed that it only had 104 H FOV, and the eye tracking not working, critiqued needing a battery.

He also complained that they are not shipping many of the items listed as what is coming in the box and that the 2nd set of lenses have been cancelled and Pimax has even deleted the distortion profile from their software. But they haven't told their customers.

 

[metalnwood]

You found a soul mate. Someone that didn't even want it but reviewed it and gave it negative stars - the same they gave it before they had it

I am not sure that varjo provided support for eye tracking yet - by that i mean if you want it to work in any of the sims we use, or flight sims then you have to use the tool made by someone else?

 

[RCHeliguy]

You found a soul mate. Someone that didn't even want it but reviewed it and gave it negative stars - the same they gave it before they had it

I am not sure that varjo provided support for eye tracking yet - by that i mean if you want it to work in any of the sims we use, or flight sims then you have to use the tool made by someone else?

Yeah, I pretty well agree with his thought process. Makes logical sense to me.

You definitely need an OpenXR hook to use DFR anywhere as you will with the Pimax after they release it. The same guy will likely be using those hooks when Pimax provides them. It's a sad fact of life.

But for DCS there is now native DFR support for the Aero, so you can run the Aero at it's highest ppd at 90fps. It yields a solid 30-40% performance increase. It's very impressive, but is also a unicorn. When I say unicorn, I mean that if Varjo didn't have military contracts there would never have been native support. So the Pimax will never have this.

For iRacing, ACC and MSFS you have DFR support with OpenXR, but it isn't native and only buys you < 10% performance which is likely where the Pimax will be.

DFR is a place that desperately needs a standard.

I was extremely impressed with how native support works in DCS. It is a game changer with full support, but it is likely the only title I will ever use that has native support.

I'm hoping that Valve will introduce some way to handle DFR in a more standardized way since they are going to be releasing a DFR headset. Everyone will benefit.

 

[gamma123152]

He said for him, it's too heavy and he can't wear it for more than 30 minutes.
He said there was a lot of blooming with local dimming.
He said even if you set it to 120Hz in only runs 90Hz.
He was able to verify this.

- The Crystal comes with 2 foams, one is terrible and I can't wear it for more then 30 mins too (with 15 it already hurts) not sure why they ship it with that one on default. The second foam is great, same comfort as my G2. I had it on for multiple races with zero issues, the difference between those two foams is HUGE. The weight is a non-issue, I have zero issues with that except for fast action games because it casues the hmd to move more then it should.
- Not sure what he does wrong but the blooming is way WAY better then I expected. To be more clear: in night racing I don't see it at all! With OpenXR toolkits FPS meter in a pitch black environment I can see it if I look VERY hard. This while I'm very sensitive for blooming. I returned 2 4K monitors because of blooming (the Sony inzone and the latest Coolermaster 27 inch 4K miniled). So I really don't understand his comment about this.
- I have exactly the same issue, 120Hz also doesn't work with mine. I have to use an "displayport repeater"(I will buy one and check if this indeed fixes it). Probably because of the extremely high resolution+hz and probably because I have an optical cable instead of the copper one.(great flexible cable, better then my G2 cable, but yes only 90hz currently)

In the meantime the other guy that you followed regarding the Crystal completely switched to Pimax as I expected:

I also got plastic lenses, I have an issue with these lenses. So my final review will be made after I received the glass lenses but I can tell you now already upfront if that issue will be solved(which I expect, but I'm NOT sure about it yet): the Crystal is in a different league compared to the Aero. But my review will follow after I received the correct lenses. So yes the launch is a shitshow, that we can all agree with including me. But that doesn't mean that the Pimax Crystal is flawed. It's on most subjects even better then I expected but I don't want to get into more details before I received the glass lenses.

 

[metalnwood]

I can get 90 on mine at times in dcs, if you can always get 90 you are not using the combat simulator edition, you are using the DCS:civillian simulator edition at 10,000 ft

 

[RCHeliguy]

I can get 90 on mine at times in dcs, if you can always get 90 you are not using the combat simulator edition, you are using the DCS:civillian simulator edition at 10,000 ft

So you are running the new multi-core version and have the Aero hook installed?

Did you not see a substantial improvement?

 

[metalnwood]

So you are running the new multi-core version and have the Aero hook installed?

Did you not see a substantial improvement?

I don't have the aero but what you have taught me is that you don't need to own the gear, you just have to have seen one guy comment on the net

But seriously everyone in vr is still looking for more dcs performance, doing a small quick start mission doesn't take you through all the issues you face in dcs in bigger missions and online. All serious dcs aero users want to know how you do it - if you end up saying you only did some testing here and there they will say - yeah, i can get 90 the issue is getting it all the time in various combat situations. Get on a server and tell me what you can maintain through a big mission.

 

[RCHeliguy]

FWIW I currently know two people who have friends beta testing the BSB, and I'm waiting to hear back from them. I'm still planning to wait until after it is released to order one.

The only real issue I'm aware of is brightness. Otherwise it seems like it is an amazing headset and not feeling like you are wearing a headset seems to be a game changer.

But like all things, time will tell. Realistically I'll still have to wait a little while for something I really really want, but I want to experience the BSB.

 

[gamma123152]

FWIW I currently know two people who have friends beta testing the BSB, and I'm waiting to hear back from them. I'm still planning to wait until after it is released to order one.

The only real issue I'm aware of is brightness. Otherwise it seems like it is an amazing headset and not feeling like you are wearing a headset seems to be a game changer.

But like all things, time will tell. Realistically I'll still have to wait a little while for something I really really want, but I want to experience the BSB.

- brightness is a huge issue. The amount of nits is one of most important things of any hmd
- fixed ipd makes it unusable for me(friends cannot use it) biggest issue
- hfov is 12 smaller then the crystal according to the voodoo video you posted, too small
- because of the fov I expect a terrible stereo overlap but I could be wrong
- the pancake lenses had some glare or something similar to that (an issue that aspheric lenses don't have)
- oled vr HMD's had"black smearing"; maybe the bsb has that too
- I understood that the bsb still has some edge distortion, or is this solved now?
- ppd and resolution is lower, so about 10 percent more shimmering then the crystal

I see zero benefits and only downsides compared to the crystal except the price and size/weight. To me the bsb is already outdated on paper now. I will never go back to lower nits, fov, resolution, glare/distortion/stereo overlap/fixed ipd and no eye tracking.

 

[Leynad777]

Wow! Brad really gets it!

I was just playing X-Figher in MR with my Pico 4 and I'm surprised not more VR-apps giving us the option including the home-screen, because it looks quite stunning and only bought and keep it for that reason. I guess the VisionPro will trigger a lot of MR coming to Meta and Pico in terms of games and Bradley seems to have forgotten that both are Android-devices. At least with the Pico 4 I could install Android-apk and run it in a window already, but there is no reason why I want to do that and the same goes to iOS.

The VisionPro get's as uncomfortable as any other VR-headset within an hour and might be even worse with the front-heavy design and heat that needs two fans to cool it down. The fancy UI might be impressive, but once your mind wants to put it off, people switch to their common 2D-devices and the VisionPro might often end in the drawer (rather showcase) like many VR-headsets before. Bradley seems to live half of his life in his VR-Chat reality and ignores that the average 'guy' doesn't want that.

This spatial computing will be a thing in the future, but I guess it must be more like Google Glass not mocking the reality with three depth-cameras in a one pound heavy device on your nose going pitch black once the tiny battery runs out. So yes, Apple is triggering a trend, but Meta and even Pico are in a better position to take advantage of it than Apple itself. Not that fancy, but affordable what the VisionPro isn't and providing hundreds of VR-games already is an advantage. There is no obvious reason to me why games like Beat Saber doesn't offer an MR-mode instead of their fake-backgrounds and the same goes for the home-screen and other stuff. Apple doesn't even provide curved 2D-images of their virtual screens and seems in too many aspects far behind the competition.

 

[RCHeliguy]

- brightness is a huge issue. The amount of nits is one of most important things of any hmd
- fixed ipd makes it unusable for me(friends cannot use it) biggest issue
- hfov is 12 smaller then the crystal according to the voodoo video you posted, too small
- because of the fov I expect a terrible stereo overlap but I could be wrong
- the pancake lenses had some glare or something similar to that (an issue that aspheric lenses don't have)
- oled vr HMD's had"black smearing"; maybe the bsb has that too
- I understood that the bsb still has some edge distortion, or is this solved now?
- ppd and resolution is lower, so about 10 percent more shimmering then the crystal

I see zero benefits and only downsides compared to the crystal except the price and size/weight. To me the bsb is already outdated on paper now. I will never go back to lower nits, fov, resolution, glare/distortion/stereo overlap/fixed ipd and no eye tracking.

I hope you are happy with your purchase.

I've always been sincere about that.

 

[gamma123152]

I hope you are happy with your purchase.

I've always been sincere about that.

Thanks. I'm already happier with the Crystal with the plastic lenses then I was with the Aero. But they shouldn't have shipped it with the plastic lenses. How happy I am with the Crystal all depends on how good the glass lenses are. I will do a full Crystal sim racing review once I got them because with the glass lenses it's the final product and by the time that I received them I spend enough time with the crystal to come to a conclusion, the plastic lenses are temporary so it's not fair to judge the performance on the current lenses. Pimax stopped shipping crystals with plastic lenses today so I think that they realized their mistake.

 

[RCHeliguy]

They had a big public statement about it.

They have also canceled the 2nd set of lenses and removed the distortion profile from their software without even a word to their customers. You didn't want them anyway so no biggie.

I hope you are completely happy once you get the glass lenses.

The irony is that they are still claiming to have a MUCH higher FOV than anyone has been able to measure.

All of what they have done only reinforces my opinion of Pimax as a company. They lie and lie and lie and bait and switch until there is too big an uproar to ignore and then they finally do something about it. Of course the bait and switch continue. I wonder when/if they will tell their customers about those other lenses that they paid for but will never get.

 

[RCHeliguy]

He nailed everything about the new Apple headset in a reasonable time frame and also gave his heads up on the BSB. He says that he actually measured about 103 H FOV. Very cool!

Brad actually said that the BSB and Crystal had very comparable looking displays for sharpness and color.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

They had a big public statement about it.

They have also canceled the 2nd set of lenses and removed the distortion profile from their software without even a word to their customers. You didn't want them anyway so no biggie.

I hope you are completely happy once you get the glass lenses.

The irony is that they are still claiming to have a MUCH higher FOV than anyone has been able to measure.

All of what they have done only reinforces my opinion of Pimax as a company. They lie and lie and lie and bait and switch until there is too big an uproar to ignore and then they finally do something about it. Of course the bait and switch continue. I wonder when/if they will tell their customers about those other lenses that they paid for but will never get.

LOL, quit it already. Geez.

 

[RCHeliguy]

So going forward it appears that there will be two categories of headset.

Spatial Computing Headsets ( that's what they are calling it. It is clearly different )

• Apple ( will run all iOS apps on day one ) will support Unity.
• Samsung ( assumption: will run all Android apps on day one )

Gaming Headsets with app stores

• Meta ( has a large store with VR titles )
• Valve ( has a large store with VR titles )

I would say the Meta store is closed except I can still use my Oculus titles, so with a little effort you can still use them.

Then there are other players.

Currently the BSB and Crystal are looking pretty comparable.

BSB has a larger stereo overlap than the Crystal by about 3-4%.
FOV depends highly on your face. Thrillseeker claims to have 103H FOV with the BSB, but it appears the Crystal may have 3-4 degrees more FOV on average.
Color looks great on both.
Blacks BSB goes a tiny bit darker but has no blooming at all.
BSB 32ppd vs Crystal 35ppd ( pretty close )
Crystal goes brighter and has some blooming dependent on the title. Some more than others.

The BSB has the same microOLED pattern as Apple with one key difference. The Apple display has two white OLEDs per pixel for twice the brightness. Current guesses are BSB 75nits and Apple 150nits.

BSB has a much better seal so there is zero light leakage and that makes the brightness enough according to one sim racer who is beta testing right now. That is one person's opinion. I'll be looking forward to getting more impressions.

I've also heard from another sim racing beta tester that he is still waiting to receive his.

I have also heard that in really dark settings some detail is lost. So please understand that I am not trying to paint an overly rosy picture. This is a weakness. The question is whether it is acceptable and that will definitely be a personal preference.

For room scale there really isn't much of a comparison. Even VR Flight Sim Guy said he would hate to use the Crystal for room scale games and he happily wears it for flight sims.

I still consider the BSB something completely new in terms of experience because of the feeling of not wearing a headset.

To be clear I see both headsets as having compromises and I can understand why someone would pick either of them.

I enjoy room scale, so I am more heavily leaning towards an ultra lightweight solution if it is acceptable to "me".

Next there is the Somnium which is also interesting because it is the first high resolution headset with a strong FOV meaning substantially better than the Index.

Somnium is coming in 4th quarter 2023.
Is 650 grams in base form.
Requires no battery.
will use microLED, local dimming, aspheric lenses
210 nit
35 ppd

Has an actual 100x 125 H actual ( seeing different results for this, took the lowest)
Is open source and upgradable
Off ear headphones

Has optional modular options
1. Cameras for dynamics passthrough
2. Hand tracking

Somnium has a seat on the board and has invested in the company that was showing off 4 display 240H FOV microOLED pancake displays recently. They also have a 140H FOV microOLED pancake lens solution.