Is VR dead?

[metalnwood]

So all arguments reduce to personal preference. Fair enough.

In the end yes, which is why it's fine you like the index over the g2 for whatever reasons.

But less preference and more performance I can't think of headsets that have stopped people being reasonably competitive, that's more the person's current ability than the headsets which generally have delivered enough since dk2

 

[RCHeliguy]

In the end, people adapt.

An alien has practiced so much that they are on autopilot.

 

[Spinelli]

In the end, people adapt.

An alien has practiced so much that they are on autopilot.

Yup. I was just going to say that. Well, I'm no alien and I don't do thousands of practice laps of the same car and track like aliens but, ya, I hit the point quite a few years ago where I go just as fast, or almost just as fast, with bad FFB, good FFB, big rims, small rims, low power FFB, high powered, different FFB wheels all-together, triple-screens, single-screen, 3D, 2D, VR headset, 1:1 with real life FOV or not, bad pedals, different pedals, good pedals, small screen, big screen, etc.

The past 2 years or so I've been racing with some 15 year old Logitech G25 pedals. The throttle pedal can't be applied smoothly because it does very erratic spiking all throughout it's range (I guess dirty or bad pots). On top of that, I have to limit the throttle pedal to around 80% of physical travel because, past that, the spiking will cause the pedals to not stay at 100% during full-throttle (so it'll be as if I'm lifting the throttle when I'm actually trying to accelerate). Yet. I feel I'm still just as fast as I ever was. I'm still matching my old laptimes and seem to be just as consistent or thereabouts as when I had other pedals like modded TM T500RS, Fana CSL Elite LC, Fana CSP V3, etc.

Like you said, people adapt.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Sadly he says it feels like the 8KX. He doesn't say it's comfortable, but just that if you've worn a Pimax headset "You know what your are getting yourself into". Not an endorsement for long term use. I've read it's less comfortable than the Aero.

On top of that he feels like his lenses already had a prescription making them hard to use.

 

[Spinelli]

Sadly he says it feels like the 8KX. He doesn't say it's comfortable, but just that if you've worn a Pimax headset "You know what your are getting yourself into". Not an endorsement for long term use. I've read it's less comfortable than the Aero.

On top of that he feels like his lenses already had a prescription making them hard to use.

It's a little lighter than the Pimax 8KX but generally the same overall type of feel. I have no problem with my 5KS which I made even more comfortable by adding the popular counterweights from studioformcreative . I bet the lens prescription thing will be fixed. This is a pre-production model with some further changes coming (like a slightly wider, better top-strap) but, ya, weird that that exists.

Aside from those 2 points (the reduced weight being a positive), the rest of his comments towards the Crystal are full of praise:
- clarity at least as good as the Varjo Aero, if not clearer, and that's just with Pimax's 35 PPD lenses, let alone their 42 PPD ones
- better colours than Aero
- better blacks than Aero
- better contrast than Aero
- local dimming unlike Aero
- overall way better picture quality than Aero
- h.FOV larger than Aero
- v.FOV around same as Index (Index has the largest v.FOV on the market)
- refresh rate options of 90 and 120 Hz VS Aero's 90 with Pimax currently testing 144 and 160 for a possible later release

Lots more info here. The Crystal discussion starts at the 48:00 min mark:

 

[RCHeliguy]

I'll wait until I see some real reviews of delivered production units, and then I'll probably wait for the next Index

 

[Spinelli]

I'll wait until I see some real reviews of delivered production units, and then I'll probably wait for the next Index

I was just responding to your previous post where you felt the need to cherry-pick a single issue whilst ignoring an astonishing amount of positive impressions. Do what you want, I don't think anyone cares what you nor me buys

 

[Deleted member 197115]

Dusted off my G2 yesterday to try this new OpenXR.
So buggy, especially OpenComposite, works very unreliable, failed to switch to Open XR from OpenVR 3 times out of 5, crashing Steam or failing launching apps, tried AC and AMS2.
Foveated rendering gives good boost though, but the whole thing is so clunky and buggy, spent all evening tinkering with things just to race for 10 minutes.
Plus looks I completely cooled off to compromised VR visuals, switching back to G9 with headtracking was a relieve.
G2 is back to shelf collecting more dust, until next VR advancement.

 

[RCHeliguy]

My G2 is also collecting dust. It was an interesting experiment.

 

[blekenbleu]

So buggy

I'm guessing Windows 11... M$ appears to be orphaning WMR
Windows Mixed Reality for SteamVR Updated - 1.3.60

Windows 11 22H2 Update available to address performance issue (HolographicShell Event Tracing)​

Microsoft offers optional update KB5020044: fixes Windows 11 22H2 gaming performance

 

[GeekyDeaks]

So buggy, especially OpenComposite, works very unreliable, failed to switch to Open XR from OpenVR 3 times out of 5, crashing Steam or failing launching apps, tried AC and AMS2.

It's definitely not a seamless experience if you want to get the best out of it, but I have been using it for a few months now, mostly with AMS2 and a dash of AC, and whilst I have had the odd crash, it hasn't been noticeably more frequent than with steamvr. I am using the older G1 though.... I also have never tried using it for anything but seated sims....

 

[Deleted member 197115]

It's definitely not a seamless experience if you want to get the best out of it, but I have been using it for a few months now, mostly with AMS2 and a dash of AC, and whilst I have had the odd crash, it hasn't been noticeably more frequent than with steamvr. I am using the older G1 though.... I also have never tried using it for anything but seated sims....

In which order and what you launch before starting sim?
Do you need to use Windows MR Portal or Windows Mixed Reality for SteamVR, seems like with latter I had more issues, also at which point you need to start OpenComposite and switch it to OpenXR.
Seems like after all the fumbling even my monitor couldn't work right flickering in games before the whole PC was restarted. Crazy stuff.
It's nice to have things like this to boost performance, but man, usability and user friendliness is appalling.

 

[GeekyDeaks]

In which order and what you launch before starting sim?

I just launch the sim from the shortcut and everything fires up after that.

I have my shortcuts modified from default so they are in the format steam://launch/GAME_ID/vr

Opencomposite is installed and setup as default system wide via the switcher that comes with it (I did originally replace the dll per game, but it was quite a bit of faff with updates):

I also have the OpenXR Tools For WMR installed but I haven't changed any settings in that as I tend to override the resolution in the OpenXR Toolkit.

I think that is it, but I'll check when I am on later. When the game fires up, I see the WMR window open, but nothing to do with steamVR. You have however reminded me that if I accidentally launch something that uses steamVR, I'm not able to reliably stop the system from using steamVR after that and I end up rebooting.

It's nice to have things like this to boost performance, but man, usability and user friendliness is appalling.

Yeah, I totally get it. I have been using it for long enough now that the foibles are second nature, but I still remember battling around at the beginning. It didn't help that it wasn't very clear to me what bits were needed and what did what, so I ended up learning more about OpenXR than I felt was really necessary.

 

[GeekyDeaks]

I did a quick check after racing, but whilst AMS2 was still running and could only spot the following things active with how I currently have it setup with opencomposite:

- Mixed Reality Portal (foreground)
- Mixed Reality Camera (background)
- Mixed Reality Passthrough (background)
- OpenXR for Windows Mixed Reality (background)
- Windows Mixed Reality (background)
- Windows Mixed Reality Environments (background)

 

[Spinelli]

Some more comments from people at the American Pimax road shows regarding the Pimax Crystal:

• I tried Aero and Crystal side by side. Crystal is way better. Same clarity but better FOV, better colours, better stereo-overlap (by a lot), the comfort is not better but fairly similar (especially because it already has audio so aero is ruined by needing headphones). It's cheaper than aero, has a full set of features (mic, audio, controllers, tracking, etc.)
• I tried it today. Crystal is about the same or a tiny tiny bit higher [regarding FOV VS Index)
• I tried both side by side today and the Crystal is objectively better than the Aero, it's significantly better in every single way (except build quality)
• From what I tried (a little Beat Saber, DCS, and Elite Dangerous) the clarity is the best I've seen as well as an ok FOV (index FOV more or less) and head tracking was great...But Elite Dangerous stole the show, the text was so clear and the contrast and screens of the HMD looked amazing in it

Regarding the lens-issue that a few people experienced from the Germany show which made it feel uncomfortable for glasses-wearers unless they took their glasses off (then the image was great) almost as if the Crystal's lenses had a prescription built into them:

• Yeah new lenses are epic. All who tried them said no optical issues and it aced the A/B tests VS. Aero right next to it. Not one person preferred it [the Aero] and not one person reported focal issues [with the Crystal]
• It has already been fixed as of yesterday (I tried it in person)
• Yeah it seemed to [be fixed], when I had my glasses on I had no issues.
• Apparently the folks in Europe got them [the updated lenses] too, people have been reporting no issues at all and seem to absolutely love it. One dude attended two shows and gave a before and after experience and says it's like night and day

 

[Deleted member 197115]

More playing with OpenXR, turning this option off helped SteamVR from auto launching and messing things even more than they are.

Still occasional crashes and inability to launch titles until few retries, but overall more successes.
Need to reboot PC after using VR or running titles on monitor result in flickering.
Had some jittery view (microstutter) when using monitor with TrackIR after that, running OpenComposite and switching it back to SteamVR fixed it.

Overall it's like CSP for VR, something is always broken.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Was just reading that this new update is supposed to improve performance in VR and fps for other games based on people not on the manufacturer.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Wow! This has been about to be released for quite a while now and they are now simply saying "Next Year" DCS has frequently talked about this coming 1 to 2 quarters out, and now they've just punted to sometime next year.

"DCS has performed most of the computational workload on a single thread (some audio components were moved to a separate thread). This was not a problem in most cases because the Graphics Processor Unit (GPU) did most of the work, and FPS was mostly limited by the performance of the GPU.

As DCS evolved, GPUs have become much more powerful whilst the performance of a single CPU core remained practically unchanged. Instead, CPU manufacturers increased the number of cores rather than the clock speed of individual cores. As a consequence, DCS performance has become CPU-limited. In parallel, DCS World has become much more complex with increased reliance on CPU calculations that has exacerbated the problem.

To improve efficiency of CPU resources usage, we have reworked the core of our engine. First, at the architectural level, it has been divided into two main threads: graphical and logical. This opens up new possibilities for further thread parallelization of calculations in both the logical and graphical parts of the engine independently.

Second, to meet the requirements of scalable multithreading, and the needs of modern graphics APIs, the graphical engine part has been significantly enhanced. In addition, many subsystems have been updated, or written from scratch.

Internal testing has begun, and we plan to release the updated DCS graphic engine (EDGE) next year. The initial release of Multithreading support will contain a fully reworked engine including preparation of the graphical frame and the separation of the graphical and logical parts onto two independent threads.

It should also be noted that the most significant performance improvements will be regarding larger missions. This will be a welcomed change, especially in multiplayer where unit numbers are typically far higher. VR performance will also see a significant performance improvement in large missions."

 

[metalnwood]

Wow! This has been about to be released for quite a while now and they are now simply saying "Next Year" DCS has frequently talked about this coming 1 to 2 quarters out, and now they've just punted to sometime next year.

"DCS has performed most of the computational workload on a single thread (some audio components were moved to a separate thread). This was not a problem in most cases because the Graphics Processor Unit (GPU) did most of the work, and FPS was mostly limited by the performance of the GPU.

As DCS evolved, GPUs have become much more powerful whilst the performance of a single CPU core remained practically unchanged. Instead, CPU manufacturers increased the number of cores rather than the clock speed of individual cores. As a consequence, DCS performance has become CPU-limited. In parallel, DCS World has become much more complex with increased reliance on CPU calculations that has exacerbated the problem.

To improve efficiency of CPU resources usage, we have reworked the core of our engine. First, at the architectural level, it has been divided into two main threads: graphical and logical. This opens up new possibilities for further thread parallelization of calculations in both the logical and graphical parts of the engine independently.

Second, to meet the requirements of scalable multithreading, and the needs of modern graphics APIs, the graphical engine part has been significantly enhanced. In addition, many subsystems have been updated, or written from scratch.

Internal testing has begun, and we plan to release the updated DCS graphic engine (EDGE) next year. The initial release of Multithreading support will contain a fully reworked engine including preparation of the graphical frame and the separation of the graphical and logical parts onto two independent threads.

It should also be noted that the most significant performance improvements will be regarding larger missions. This will be a welcomed change, especially in multiplayer where unit numbers are typically far higher. VR performance will also see a significant performance improvement in large missions."

I'v been there for nearly 13 years, nothing has changed

 

[RCHeliguy]

I bow to your experience on this one.

It's interesting that both iRacing and DCS get lots of detractors who attack their payment model, but they both keep evolving their products.