I'm shocked about AI
- Thread starter barty
- Start date
Stop the hating! Peace$Love
At 1:02:25: "99% of people that use race simulation they don't even want to touch the setup. They don't understand it, they don't want to understand it, and because is complicated. Even in real racing many times you'll hear discussion between race engineers, they don't agree on something. So it's not an easy subject. If people can't be bothered to understand what an anti-roll bar is and what it does to your car then how can you even imagine them opening up and starting to write down algorithms for active suspensions."
Then go watch the video at 1:07:39. He starts saying "The problem with this is that you have no idea how completely clueless the normal user can be. I remember back in the days of netkar the typical user, putting there a checkered flag is not enough, if you don't make something happen to signal to this guy 'look the race is over, that's it, you're done', they will stare at the... 'duh what's going on..' It's unbelievable how the average joe.. how stupid the average joe can be, it's unbelievable."
He then goes to explain the need to have at the end of the race a screen with the leaderboard and what you want to do, restart, watch replay, exit.
Then comes Mr.Puff in the chat and says: "the attitude is so unprofessional! 'we are stupid. 99% doesn't care about setups!?"
Then Stefano:
"I am not saying you are stupid. I'm saying that a big part of the people are not stupid, they are just not that much into racing as you think. And yes, they don't care about setups. Just go on the forum and look at how many people understand or care or want to understand about setup."
"I'm not saying you are stupid or don't care about setup; you need to understand that you belong to a community and the fact that you consider something important doesn't make it important. It's important if the majority of that community thinks is important".
Do race drivers have detailed information over the setups?
Or are they telling their engineers that the car is a bit too oversteery in corner entry
and expect the engineers to take the needed actions?
But ya, the vast majority of gamers aren't hardcore gamers but casuals without big interest in dedicating time into reading up and learning stuff burried deep inside the game.
Learning how to set up the car isn't an easy task.
You need to understand what everything does and how changing it alters the driving characteristics.
But that requires you to know how the car needs to behave for you to perform the best.
That means you need to spend tens of hours on the track before even thinking about changing something in the setup...
Total playtime (average) for Assetto Corsa is 39 hours according to Steamspy.
40 hours with the variety of cars is nothing.
Or are they telling their engineers that the car is a bit too oversteery in corner entry
and expect the engineers to take the needed actions?
But ya, the vast majority of gamers aren't hardcore gamers but casuals without big interest in dedicating time into reading up and learning stuff burried deep inside the game.
Learning how to set up the car isn't an easy task.
You need to understand what everything does and how changing it alters the driving characteristics.
But that requires you to know how the car needs to behave for you to perform the best.
That means you need to spend tens of hours on the track before even thinking about changing something in the setup...
Total playtime (average) for Assetto Corsa is 39 hours according to Steamspy.
40 hours with the variety of cars is nothing.
And there we go again. These statements are based on what exactly? Do they have actual stats to back up the claim that 99% of the sim racers aren't interested. Maybe Kunos should have a look at other forums too.
Here is a screenshot of just our AC setup directory. 126,000 views. If that's 1% than the AC community must be huge.
Over 100,000 simracers have downloaded our easy setup guide https://twitter.com/RaceDepartment/status/639060629152776192
Yep more confirmation that they just want drag&drop setups. Car setup is an experience on its own. Downloading setups from others is not. People are mostly interested in setups because they want to be faster in a race. Only "1%" of those that downloaded setups will actually understand the technicalities/behavior of everything that changed in their downloaded setup compared to default.
But inside the car setup world, there are things that people outside the "1%" will change and understand something of it. Things like fuel, tyres, and then aero.
But inside the car setup world, there are things that people outside the "1%" will change and understand something of it. Things like fuel, tyres, and then aero.
Selective quoting much? I just pointed you towards one guide of many that have reached 100K downloads. 42K views on the detailed post by Georg and that's just RaceDepartment.
That has got nothing to do with drag & drop but with people being genuinely interested in how car physics work. Add to that the countless non-written discussions on teamspeak and mumble channels or team forums and that 99% quote makes absolutely no sense.
Saying where it oversteers is pretty typical
http://www.gurneyflap.com/Resources/alesia.jpeg
Jean Alesi, 2000 F1 season
Downloading setups from other faster/more experienced racers has helped me understand how to set up a particular race car many times.
Who knew the corvette c7r needs to have its front height higher than the rear for the car to function better than conventional setups. Same with the lotus gtc. If we had access to real life set ups that would be good also.
When I was younger and had more time on my hands I could research and develop setups. Now I need other people who like me at one point had more time. And some cars are out of my depth like formula cars, there are a few extra setup parameters on top of what you have for gt racecars that can confuse me. So I was really pleased when kunos put up descriptions of the setup values it's very helpful.
To take away setups because of this 99% figure or discount that setups are a learning process even for veterans like me who have been simracing for a decade is unwarranted. But that's what happens when your user base is 50x that of race07 gtr etc, you have users that don't care as much. But the ones that were here from the beginning I can assure you we do care, and being the author of a pace leading setup makes me feel quite good.
Thread hijacked again. I'm glad though talking about AI is so 1999 lol
Who knew the corvette c7r needs to have its front height higher than the rear for the car to function better than conventional setups. Same with the lotus gtc. If we had access to real life set ups that would be good also.
When I was younger and had more time on my hands I could research and develop setups. Now I need other people who like me at one point had more time. And some cars are out of my depth like formula cars, there are a few extra setup parameters on top of what you have for gt racecars that can confuse me. So I was really pleased when kunos put up descriptions of the setup values it's very helpful.
To take away setups because of this 99% figure or discount that setups are a learning process even for veterans like me who have been simracing for a decade is unwarranted. But that's what happens when your user base is 50x that of race07 gtr etc, you have users that don't care as much. But the ones that were here from the beginning I can assure you we do care, and being the author of a pace leading setup makes me feel quite good.
Thread hijacked again. I'm glad though talking about AI is so 1999 lol
It's general guide that applies to general sim racing games. Also linked from the AC section.
It's not 99% so if you don't know the actual numbers stop using them as facts as some people (* avoiding the word fanboys*) blindly take this as the truth because, it's on YouTube.
Formulate a nice poll with questions and we'll put it live on the site, lets see if 99% isn't interested in learning about setups. Kunos runs the same forum software so they can do the same if they want.
Honestly, Kunos needs to hire someone for their communications as this is just offensive, I am sure he doesn't mean it like this but still you don't speak about or to your customers that way. If average joe doesn't understand setups, take the time to educate him instead of putting him aside as stupid.
Well, same problem as with fellow forum members not being native speakers.
We lack vaocabulary and phrases to really express us in a proper way.
And then we tend to use the wrong words.
Should every developer hire a native english to do all the communication?
Definitely, but if you can afford it and if it's a reasonable thing to do is a
completely different thing
Thanks @Stereo really nice seeing such a thing.
But that's what i'm talking about - race drivers don't need to be good engineers.
They just need to know what they want changed on their car
We lack vaocabulary and phrases to really express us in a proper way.
And then we tend to use the wrong words.
Should every developer hire a native english to do all the communication?
Definitely, but if you can afford it and if it's a reasonable thing to do is a
completely different thing
Thanks @Stereo really nice seeing such a thing.
But that's what i'm talking about - race drivers don't need to be good engineers.
They just need to know what they want changed on their car
Also the 99% was taken too literal. We can't measure how deeply people are into car setups. And how that has changed over the years since sims got more customers.
The usual arcade/simcade racing games also have detailed car setups, and I guess is a general pre-conceived idea that people will just use the way the car is in its default state. 99% is taken too literal, but the big part of the users will maybe fiddle with the setup, read the tips, experiment a bit, and decide their default setup is good enough to race competitively. Or later will look to download different setups in hope to drive faster. Sometimes these different setups also help your driving, because if you return back to default, you'll see you might be faster than originally.
This is not Kunos communication, even if he is the source behind it. The same way when Bram talks in the forum, his words here are not officially represented by Racedepartment.
Characterizing average joe as being stupid is in the meaning that he might lack common sense/intuition to do things that aren't shown in the interface.
If AC wouldn't have tips for the car setup parameters, then the average joe would be completely clueless about what those things mean and can do. He would actually need to search articles and explanations for car setup parameters. In this sense, 1% would actually bother for it. But even with tips or guides, it actually requires physical and mental work to experiment with the things you read on those tips/guides.
In a more practical manner, 1% represents the minority, and 99% represents the majority.
The usual arcade/simcade racing games also have detailed car setups, and I guess is a general pre-conceived idea that people will just use the way the car is in its default state. 99% is taken too literal, but the big part of the users will maybe fiddle with the setup, read the tips, experiment a bit, and decide their default setup is good enough to race competitively. Or later will look to download different setups in hope to drive faster. Sometimes these different setups also help your driving, because if you return back to default, you'll see you might be faster than originally.
This is not Kunos communication, even if he is the source behind it. The same way when Bram talks in the forum, his words here are not officially represented by Racedepartment.
Characterizing average joe as being stupid is in the meaning that he might lack common sense/intuition to do things that aren't shown in the interface.
If AC wouldn't have tips for the car setup parameters, then the average joe would be completely clueless about what those things mean and can do. He would actually need to search articles and explanations for car setup parameters. In this sense, 1% would actually bother for it. But even with tips or guides, it actually requires physical and mental work to experiment with the things you read on those tips/guides.
In a more practical manner, 1% represents the minority, and 99% represents the majority.
I strongly believe similar to the flight sim community that the sim racing community consists of intelligent people that have chosen for a challenging and awesome hobby. Intelligent people even with a lack of knowledge about physics (I sucked at phyics at school ) can learn how to tweak setups that suit their driving style.
Even if you happen to be totally clueless there are message boards, chat channels and social media to ask for help and people are often willing to assist.
All it takes is a little dedication and if you are serious about your sim racing those few hours digging into the theory will pay off big time eventually, making your experience even nicer.
I will refrain from further commenting on the 1% and 99% thing or the less than 25% online sim racers vs AI racers as it only leads to more polarization. We'll do our best, and with us many communities, to show the world how freaking awesome our online (and offline) hobby can be.
) can learn how to tweak setups that suit their driving style. Even if you happen to be totally clueless there are message boards, chat channels and social media to ask for help and people are often willing to assist.
All it takes is a little dedication and if you are serious about your sim racing those few hours digging into the theory will pay off big time eventually, making your experience even nicer.
I will refrain from further commenting on the 1% and 99% thing or the less than 25% online sim racers vs AI racers as it only leads to more polarization. We'll do our best, and with us many communities, to show the world how freaking awesome our online (and offline) hobby can be.
Lorenzo Bonder
Wah wah.
The last thing I want to see is Stefano pull an Ian Bell. We know where this will go if this happen.
Cote Dazur
SIM Addict
I believe Stefano is correct in his assessment that the vast majority is more incline to race against AI and they have little to no interest in developing setup skills. We all know 90% of all cited statistic are made up on the spot, yes including this one.
When racing against AI you choose the car and track, possibly a car you like to drive, not much need to set up.
When racing online you need to optimize the performance of the car to try to beat the other players, or at least be able to keep up. It is not a mystery that most fast online driver have develop an ability to tweak the cars exploiting the particulars of the different game physic to extract performance not directly related to how real car perform in reality. if you can find a pre establish set up base without having to do everything yourself, even better.
Set up is also the biggest excuse to justify why someone is faster than someone else, when in fact talent makes the difference.
I don't care about setups, I care about experiencing different cars, enjoy their specific personalities without the need to have them behave like something they are not. if I need to set up anything it is the strength of the AI to have a pleasant time racing.
I guess I am an average joe and I love Assetto Corsa, go figure!
When racing against AI you choose the car and track, possibly a car you like to drive, not much need to set up.
When racing online you need to optimize the performance of the car to try to beat the other players, or at least be able to keep up. It is not a mystery that most fast online driver have develop an ability to tweak the cars exploiting the particulars of the different game physic to extract performance not directly related to how real car perform in reality. if you can find a pre establish set up base without having to do everything yourself, even better.
Set up is also the biggest excuse to justify why someone is faster than someone else, when in fact talent makes the difference.
I don't care about setups, I care about experiencing different cars, enjoy their specific personalities without the need to have them behave like something they are not. if I need to set up anything it is the strength of the AI to have a pleasant time racing.
I guess I am an average joe and I love Assetto Corsa, go figure!
I believe Stefano is correct in his assessment that the vast majority is more incline to race against AI and they have little to no interest in developing setup skills. We all know 90% of all cited statistic are made up on the spot, yes including this one.
When racing against AI you choose the car and track, possibly a car you like to drive, not much need to set up.
When racing online you need to optimize the performance of the car to try to beat the other players, or at least be able to keep up. It is not a mystery that most fast online driver have develop an ability to tweak the cars exploiting the particulars of the different game physic to extract performance not directly related to how real car perform in reality. if you can find a pre establish set up base without having to do everything yourself, even better.
Set up is also the biggest excuse to justify why someone is faster than someone else, when in fact talent makes the difference.
I don't care about setups, I care about experiencing different cars, enjoy their specific personalities without the need to have them behave like something they are not. if I need to set up anything it is the strength of the AI to have a pleasant time racing.
I guess I am an average joe and I love Assetto Corsa, go figure!
Look at me, i belong to the majority...
well played!
I've only altered setups in Iracing as I can feel immediate differences in the cars handling. Changing setups doesn't necessarily make the car faster as the main benefit is to change the handling characteristics to suit the driver. I"ve downloaded plenty of setups in Iracing and most of them are undriveable for me as they weren't setup for me. Some people prefer more oversteer for rotation where others like understeer for safety. Take a stiff car around a bumpy track and you will skip offline in every turn. Vice versa, a super soft car around a smooth track will give you sloppy weight transfer and you'll be fighting the car when you should be focused on getting back on power.
I don't know everything about setups by any stretch. My rule of thumb is to work on the opposite end of the car that is giving me an issue...if the car is understeering, I might stiffen the rear or look at the differentials preload; understanding that it's all about compromises...stiffeing the rear might hender your corner exit. I tend to start small and test and make adjustments as I go until I feel comfortable pushing the car as hard as I can without spinning.
I haven't touched setups in AC or my others sims as most of the time, I'm racing the AI and reveling in the competition. I suppose if I got into a league and got serious about online racing, I might start tuning but for the most part, I'm happy with the stock setups.
I don't know everything about setups by any stretch. My rule of thumb is to work on the opposite end of the car that is giving me an issue...if the car is understeering, I might stiffen the rear or look at the differentials preload; understanding that it's all about compromises...stiffeing the rear might hender your corner exit. I tend to start small and test and make adjustments as I go until I feel comfortable pushing the car as hard as I can without spinning.
I haven't touched setups in AC or my others sims as most of the time, I'm racing the AI and reveling in the competition. I suppose if I got into a league and got serious about online racing, I might start tuning but for the most part, I'm happy with the stock setups.
