AC GT3 @ Red Bull Ring - Sunday 10th July 2022

[HF2000]

I sent a pre-release copy of Battebergring to Enzo and asked him to record an AI line driving as fast and smoothly as he could.

He was cutting just enough of each apex to make him quick; he was really on the limit of the track boundaries, but when the AI tried to use the same line, they seemed to drift beyond the limits, clipping kerbs, running wide and generally drove quite sloppily.

It's a shame because I was hoping that an alien line would make for better racing, but it just didn't work out like that.

You own AI racelines are very good on Battenbergring. Usually I can be in the top 5 but here I was a backmarker.

 

[HF2000]

The Audi is usually among top-3 best cars on any track, it's definitely not one of the slowest. But for some reason AI is very poor in driving the Audi and the stock setup is no good in this car, though even with my setups AI is pretty bad and slower than in other cars. The way AI is driving seems to be very different from what I'm doing. E.g. AI doesn't overheat rear tires when using softs in conditions when I have to use mediums, which means it doesn't push it much

That confirms indeed my conclusion that the testresults are useless.

 

[demetri]

Out of interest, I experimented with an alien AI on my last track, and the AI crashed more often and lapped significantly slower.

I just don't think that they can cope with a very 'human' racing line. My feeling is that the AI are designed to add a human element to a theoretically correct racing line. If they are given a racing line that already has that human element baked into it, the result is sloppy, too human driving.

Some stock Kunos track even have a bad racing line that AI sticks to. Imola is a good example, with its lines from the last turn to T1 and from Tosa to Piratella. For some reason, it's not the straightest route possible.

AI in GT3s can't do Eau Rouge - Raidillon or Blanchimont flatout and they not just lift off, but even brake there . I gave AI a 2:15-capable Audi setup and it did only 2:20. I recently did a league championship in AC (the reason I was absent from RD these 6 months) and the slowest drivers there (who were usually lapped, sometimes twice in a one hour race) were doing laps about as good (or shall I say as bad) as 100% AI. I think it's safe to say that that AI in this game basically sucks.

 

[Fat-Alfie]

Most of the issues like the ones you described at Spa can be fixed with a well made ai_hints.ini file (where you can force the AI to go faster than they think they should at a certain point on the track), but it takes time to make and requires a lot of testing.

 

[demetri]

I believe the AI cars run with default - hence the mediums. So that's default psi, aero, gearing etc.

Some of these cars are probably hopeless with no setup changes. Would be nice to know if the results change if the setup was tweeted.

I believe there is a way to change AI setup by putting a particular.ini file somewhere

You can start a Hotlap session, load a setup and then hit Ctrl-C to give AI control of the car. This way it will be driving with your setup. If you change the default setup for AIs to use in a race against them they will still switch tires to medium (not sure about the pressures), adjust final gear ratio and get their own fuel load, so all your efforts will go out of the window. I found that suspension changes (that they hopefully adopt from your setup) do very little in regards to AI laptimes

 

[demetri]

Most of the issues like the ones you described at Spa can be fixed with a well made ai_hints.ini file (where you can force the AI to go faster than they think they should at a certain point on the track), but it takes time to make and requires a lot of testing.

I just tried it (used the hints file that someone posted on RD) and it got rid of the braking, but AI still lifts off. Still, it was a decent 2.5 seconds improvement and it did an 18-flat lap.

Spoiler: ai_hints.ini

;Track
[HINT_0]
START=0.0
END=0.876
VALUE=1.3

;Blanchimont
[HINT_1]
START=0.876
END=0.910
VALUE=2.0

;Track
[HINT_2]
START=0.910
END=1
VALUE=1.3

One thing I noticed is that with this change AI managed to overheat front tires in S2-S3 (front left got to 98 degrees!), but not the rear ones, which I've personally never experienced in the Audi as the rears would get cooked first.

 

[demetri]

I think this ai_hints file gives AI more grip (grip-hack cheat) and more grip causes more tire heat

EDITED:
I was wrong. Increasing those values by 1.0 resulted in AI overshooting all the corners like someone who's driving in a sim for the first time.
So, more heat must have come just from AI pushing it harder and not underdriving the car like it normally would. But I'm still puzzled by how it manages to heat up fronts so much, this is something I often struggle with on certain tracks

 

[HF2000]

It's very nice to see that my post gets such a lot reactions with valuable information. Thanks you guys!

 

[JoelK]

My two cents about the balance:

Back when racing at ACRL was extra competetive (pre-ACC), the top guys were generally running Audi's and Mclarens (except for Tähtelä's GT-R)

I feel like, what the 650s gains in corners and in the amount of downforce it has (which is a lot compared to any other car), the Audi gains in top speed and ability to handle kerbs really nicely (fast damp's require some work).

Well, Joel isn't yet that fast as he used to be so I'm still going for you but I think it will be close.

True, now I HAVE to practice for sunday extra hard At least it's one my favourite tracks

 

[Interslice]

My two cents about the balance:

Back when racing at ACRL was extra competetive (pre-ACC), the top guys were generally running Audi's and Mclarens (except for Tähtelä's GT-R)

I feel like, what the 650s gains in corners and in the amount of downforce it has (which is a lot compared to any other car), the Audi gains in top speed and ability to handle kerbs really nicely (fast damp's require some work).


True, now I HAVE to practice for sunday extra hard At least it's one my favourite tracks

Interesting Joel. To me the Audi just feels like a slower lambo, same handling. Might give it a try on sunday if i can get some time alone with it

 

[HF2000]

Most of the issues like the ones you described at Spa can be fixed with a well made ai_hints.ini file (where you can force the AI to go faster than they think they should at a certain point on the track), but it takes time to make and requires a lot of testing.

So with a good setup and testing a lot, you should be able to let the AI do a perfect lap?

And combined with the CTRL+C option I could get all the RSR world records?

Hmm, if so probably someone else would have come up with that, I guess.

 

[Aksu]

By the way, I did some AI-only testing (so I can do something else, apparently there's a life besides sim racing) with the GT3 cars on 20 different tracks.

20 cars, two for every GT3 (I also have included the SLS GT3). Skill level 100%, aggressiveness 75%. Optimal track conditions.

Results (combined means the difference was not significant):
1 McLaren
2/3 Ferrari, Porsche
4/5 AMG,Glickenhaus
6 Lamborghini
7/8 BMW,SLS
9/10 Audi, Nissan.

Other observations:
Porsche is best on tracks with tight corners.
Lamborghini and Glickenhaus are best on high speed tracks.
McLaren is good on any track. Ferrari also but always slower than the McLaren.
The SLS is the slower Mercedes, but not the slowest GT3, so maybe a human can get some good results with it.

Where the aliens Chris Down's performance can be partly explained with the McLaren as the best car, that is not the case with Dmitry (Audi) and Aki (with the Nissan a few years ago I believe).

But of course there are a lot of unknown variables like the AI racing lines that can be good for McLaren and bad for Nissan. How is tire wear for AI being implemented, especially with regard to the Porsche?
The races lasted 45 minutes and the AI chose mediums on each car, which could be in favor of the Porsche.

So what do we learn from this? Nothing new!

We already knew that the McLaren is unbeatable on most tracks if the driver can push to the limit. And we know it's the man behind the wheel who makes up 99% of the result. Dmitry is the fastest man (when Chris isn't around) in almost the slowest car.

And for myself, my best results are with the slowest car of them all! Does that mean I'm such a good driver that I'm a midfielder? Certainly not! It means I drive a car that suits my driving style, so I make fewer mistakes and can maintain a decent pace.
Btw my PB's on most tracks are with the 911 but the car is too tricky for me in a race of an hour. I wish I could qualify with the Porsche and race with the Nissan. But S.GP doesn't support that, strangely enough.

Interesting text ;-)
For my knowledge I can only talk about Nissan and Mclaren so here it goes ;-)
I did drove Nissan about 3 years and didn't drove anything else so I really came familiar with that car. We just choose Nissan because no one else didn't drove it
I think Nissan is worst and slowest car with basic setup so that car needs lots and lots of tuning to get it decent speed on track. But when you get it right you really need quite minor tweaks to other tracks.
Nissan is fast on straights and it launches like a rocket out from corners so those are big advantages. It's also kind to tires so many tracks could be finished with one set of softs ;-) also if there is too hot to other cars to use softs Nissan can use those. Those said.... It isn't really fast on corners (but it's so wide that no one fits pass it ) and it awful on kerbs.
But when you get used to it it's really "easy" car to drive.

When changing Nissan to Mclaren driving experience is from other planet. Mc really need different driving style than Nissan. And again... setup is the key to get it do what driver wants. On basic setup it's lot faster than Nissan.
Pros on Mclaren it's fast on corners ja take kerbs well.
And negative side it lacks on power and speed... Some tracks needs aero low as 1 front and 1 or 2 back to get speed needed on straights and that turns cornering quite sketchy. But driveable ;-)

For the race... I'm in

 

[JoelK]

Interesting text ;-)
For my knowledge I can only talk about Nissan and Mclaren so here it goes ;-)
I did drove Nissan about 3 years and didn't drove anything else so I really came familiar with that car. We just choose Nissan because no one else didn't drove it
I think Nissan is worst and slowest car with basic setup so that car needs lots and lots of tuning to get it decent speed on track. But when you get it right you really need quite minor tweaks to other tracks.
Nissan is fast on straights and it launches like a rocket out from corners so those are big advantages. It's also kind to tires so many tracks could be finished with one set of softs ;-) also if there is too hot to other cars to use softs Nissan can use those. Those said.... It isn't really fast on corners (but it's so wide that no one fits pass it ) and it awful on kerbs.
But when you get used to it it's really "easy" car to drive.

When changing Nissan to Mclaren driving experience is from other planet. Mc really need different driving style than Nissan. And again... setup is the key to get it do what driver wants. On basic setup it's lot faster than Nissan.
Pros on Mclaren it's fast on corners ja take kerbs well.
And negative side it lacks on power and speed... Some tracks needs aero low as 1 front and 1 or 2 back to get speed needed on straights and that turns cornering quite sketchy. But driveable ;-)

For the race... I'm in

Can confirm this

One thing so nice about the Nissan is that I can get up to speed with it on different tracks fairly quickly, since it likes to be thrown around.

For me it feels reasonably stable throught the corners, even if I try to set it up to be loose, so I usually go for soft setups where it's a bit loose on the brakes and rotates nicely on the nose, but still been able to have that squat on the exit and the resulting stableness.

For this reason my racing lines are way more V-shaped with the Nissan, rather than trying to carry as much apex speed as I can with the Audi and the Mclaren.

 

[HF2000]

I've informed Enzo and Chris about the race Sunday. I would love to see the five of you competing (in the replay of course)!

 

[demetri]

Interesting Joel. To me the Audi just feels like a slower lambo, same handling. Might give it a try on sunday if i can get some time alone with it

FFB feels very different to me, I get a bit disconnected from the car in the Lambo. Also, the Lambo sometimes goes into those slow spins that I can't recover from. Maybe it's the setup though, as I've been polishing my baseline Audi setup for years, so now it fits like a glove and works for most of the tracks with some small adjustments.

I have a feeling that the Lambo can be very fast if set up and being driven properly, but not having center rear view mirror or camera in it turns me off that car, so I rarely drive it. I have no clue how Chris is able to drive the same ill-equipped McLaren in VR. On flat screens you can fallback to a virtual mirror, but no such thing for VR

 

[Enzo Fazzi]

I have a feeling that the Lambo can be very fast if set up and being driven properly, but not having center rear view mirror or camera in it turns me off that car, so I rarely drive it. I have no clue how Chris is able to drive the same ill-equipped McLaren in VR. On flat screens you can fallback to a virtual mirror, but no such thing for VR

I didn't mind it too much when I raced in VR with the Lambo. I only look in the mirrors when someone pulls out for a move and the side mirrors are fine for that.

We know from @Fat-Alfie that AI uses the race line. So if Enzo has helped create the raceline with an Alien setup then it probably explains why the AI cars (with default setup) can't follow the raceline exactly. It would be be an interesting experiment to see a Battenbergring AI race using the car/setup Enzo used to create the raceline.

I used default setup when I did it. I think the main issue is that I was:
1. Clipping the grass on the in and outsides a little bit
2. Sliding the rear end, which the AI doesn't really do because it has quite strict stability control.

 

[640er]

The (my) biggest problem with the GT3 cars is, there are too many of them. Still, after nearly 2 years of GT3 racing, I can't decide on one car and stick with it

I really like the GT-R because of its onboard sound and power out of corners
I really like the McLaren because I'm fastest with it
I really like the Ferrari because it feels very sharp in corners and also has a great onboard sound
I really like the Lambo because of its straight line speed and pointiness in corners
I really like the BMW because of its easy handling and superb stopping power

I don't like the Audi because it makes weird onboard noises which annoy me
Glick/SLS are not competitive with me behind the wheel.

Porsche, still haven't tried it - see my problem?

 

[HF2000]

The (my) biggest problem with the GT3 cars is, there are too many of them. Still, after nearly 2 years of GT3 racing, I can't decide on one car and stick with it

I really like the GT-R because of its onboard sound and power out of corners
I really like the McLaren because I'm fastest with it
I really like the Ferrari because it feels very sharp in corners and also has a great onboard sound
I really like the Lambo because of its straight line speed and pointiness in corners
I really like the BMW because of its easy handling and superb stopping power

I don't like the Audi because it makes weird onboard noises which annoy me
Glick/SLS are not competitive with me behind the wheel.

Porsche, still haven't tried it - see my problem?

Easy solved: go with the Porsche!*

 

[Interslice]

The (my) biggest problem with the GT3 cars is, there are too many of them. Still, after nearly 2 years of GT3 racing, I can't decide on one car and stick with it

I really like the GT-R because of its onboard sound and power out of corners
I really like the McLaren because I'm fastest with it
I really like the Ferrari because it feels very sharp in corners and also has a great onboard sound
I really like the Lambo because of its straight line speed and pointiness in corners
I really like the BMW because of its easy handling and superb stopping power

I don't like the Audi because it makes weird onboard noises which annoy me
Glick/SLS are not competitive with me behind the wheel.

Porsche, still haven't tried it - see my problem?

I'm have the same problem. I keep switching between cars. I'm quickest here in the Ferrari, but it can make for a boring race. It's either in no mans land or stuck behind a GT-R Lambo is more fun, it can overtake and defend well against the nissans.

I will probably go with the audi, for no good reason other than to try it out. The only cars I havn't tried in a race yet are the mclaren and the SCG.

 

[HF2000]

Ok guys,

With Dmitry, Aki, Joel and Enzo we have 4 aliens for the race Sunday. Make sure to save the replay as this can be a great learning opportunity!