Authorised Vendor DK Sigma Motion System | USA Made

[NetLawMan]

1) Yes correct, most systems allocate, partition or shard a specific amount of travel per motion layer. This is probably the easiest method to implement motion from game to chassis.

2) Regarding game telemetry interpretation, this can be done in many ways, and its beyond the scope of this forum. There are many scientific papers online explaining motion cueing theories or how to best represent real-world displacement into actuators with a limited amount of travel. It's really a science and a deep topic.

3) From my experience, for most applications there is no need to go more than 6" if you have good motion cueing and smart allocation (algorithms). These advanced algorithms take a long time to develop and are also very difficult to market, without simply sitting in different systems and just feeling the difference. We try to explain our algorithms (our advantage) with technical articles on our website.

4) 6" systems present other problems as well, including their integration with certain games. Boosted media covered this issue well with a sway system they reviewed, which swayed them more than the vantage point in the car. It looked awkward moving around the cabin like that and they implemented a neat solution. Shorter travel systems, are therefore better at communicating the detail and the attitude of the car without throwing you around past the limits of the game, screen location and going down the rabbit hole of perfect integration. ;-) Cookie or Louise is awesome, love seeing her crush it in DR20. That was her first use of motion in that video, but you can see some discrepancies already (moving more than her over the hood view point). Stroke is easy to market as its something relatable to most but stroke and speed are definitely not everything and can be used as a distractions.

5) Not any one system can completely and fully achieve all intended 'effects'. Its really a compromise and also subjective or independent to each driver and person. At Sigma we understand and enjoy the technical/scientific challenge of motion simulation, and don't rely on 'effects' but smart algorithms that are more raw and give you what is being presented in the game with the discussed limitations. We put the onus on the game developer to give us the correct telemetry at the Hz or frequency necessary. Forza or Gran Turismo is probably never going to give us more than 60Hz physics, as almost any game from Codemasters. So for those games, using effects is great and fun, with some false positives that only dedicated drivers pick up on. Otherwise games like iRacing, rFactor, and BeamNG support our niche ecosystem quite well.

Amazing explanation as always. So what is the best way to pick between the DK2 + and DK6? Does your system account for the issues of DK6 making it an easy choice? Is there a matrix that lists the games that shows which ones may be incompatible with, or not be ideal for, the DK6? Is the an ideal dk6 customer?

IOW, does the DK6 provide an added benefit over the DK2+ for environmental tipping (banking/up-down hill) and/or rally games? I ask because the more senses I feel on my rig, the less motion sickness I get in VR. So far, I can do VR in Automobilista 2, but not dirt rally 2 because in DR2, my brain can’t handle seeing me go up hill, but not feeling it.

Thanks!

 

[SigmaMotion]

Amazing explanation as always. So what is the best way to pick between the DK2 + and DK6? Does your system account for the issues of DK6 making it an easy choice? Is there a matrix that lists the games that shows which ones may be incompatible with, or not be ideal for, the DK6? Is the an ideal dk6 customer?

IOW, does the DK6 provide an added benefit over the DK2+ for environmental tipping (banking/up-down hill) and/or rally games? I ask because the more senses I feel on my rig, the less motion sickness I get in VR. So far, I can do VR in Automobilista 2, but not dirt rally 2 because in DR2, my brain can’t handle seeing me go up hill, but not feeling it.

Thanks!

1) DK2 is price to performance optimized and is best for professional drivers looking for a premium home product with total chassis capacity under 500lbs.

2) DK2+ is weight to performance optimized, is rated for 800lbs total mass and has larger motor with more torque that is better suited for heavier chassis, larger drivers and sim centers.

3) DK6 is stroke to performance optimized, its also rated for 800lbs and is recommended for flight or for simulators requiring more travel.

The DK6 does provide an added benefit in the available degrees of roll/pitch but is not required for most road or off-road applications. It shines most in simulators where pitch, roll or heave is often saturated, such as flight (pitch/roll) or off-road (pro-trucks). So the DK6 will have added benefits over the DK2+ when representing the environment, but also what would matter is the mounting of the actuators in a square like location in and around the driver. Again not sure why many companies decide to place their actuators so far out on their chassis. Missing out on some vital degrees of pitch and roll.

I would almost always recommend DK2+/DK6 as you can always scale back the layer intensity to meet your required needs. However the disconnect between VR and motion is very subjective and personal, and is more a consequence of matching the initial JERK of the motion than travel. So in this case the DK2 or DK2+ should be just fine. So climbing a hill (our environmental layer) is prominent in DK2/DK2+ but even more so in DK6, but its the initial low latency motion cue that is responsible for the communicating to your brain that its climbing and not necessarily the travel, as you would suspect. ;-) Video coming soon on DK6.

Thanks!

 

[SigmaMotion]

Actuator Comparison: https://www.sigmaintegrale.com/comparison/

 

[BlackFlagSimRacing]

Actuator Comparison: https://www.sigmaintegrale.com/comparison/
View attachment 562747

Ordered the one in the middle

 

[BlackFlagSimRacing]

Quick update: Fantastic!

 

[SigmaMotion]

Please share some photos when you can!

 

[SigmaMotion]

 

[BlackFlagSimRacing]

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[SigmaMotion]

 

[SigmaMotion]

 

[SigmaMotion]

love seeing the different setups around the world. Switzerland and the Race Room in Edmonton Mall, Canada.

 

[eLWOOD1776]

Any plans for surge and traction loss add-ons? I have my eyes on a DK6, but can't imagine running two separate motion systems and two different pieces of software in order to get traction loss. I could probably live without surge, but traction loss is basically required for rally fans.

 

[SigmaMotion]

Hi eLWOOD1776, thanks for the great question.

Yes eventually we will add the other DOF's, but we still do not know to what capacity and what is the best way to do this. And if we want to do yaw, surge or sway, we want to do it right, and not just push it out because of demand and call it done. ;-)

There are a couple of initial design, implementation and safety concerns that we have if this is to be done properly.

1) Algorithmically, we always want to capture yaw-acceleration and yaw-jerk as well as the larger movements such as drift angle or a more sustained yaw. This is pretty much already baked into our motion algorithm.

2) Electrical/Control, we would most certainly use an additional controller box and change the network address IP assignment so we have communication to each controller. The bandwidth is definitely there and we are already making provisions to make this happen for other reasons. Would also like to add some kind of mounting bracket as suggested by Boosted Media and others.

3) Mechanically, the question is what is the best way to represent yaw, without building this massive extruded aluminum monstrosity that sits 4 feet of the ground. There is a neat and tidy way to do it and its needs to be modeled, built and extensively tested. This will take the most amount of time. Any physical actuator placements would need to be entered into our software to ensure and verify accurate real world movements, or exactly what we already do for pitch, roll and heave.

So stay tuned the pressure is on but whatever the decision it has to be clean, robust and turn key. The install to race time should be minimal. Like a fast pit stop. ;-)

 

[SigmaMotion]

One of our Sigma's ripping it up on the ring. ;-)

 

[helios1234]

Hello,

Is there any intention to include vr motion compensation in the software?

 

[SigmaMotion]

Hi Helios1234, great question and one we get often.

We have not found a need for motion compensation software and many of our members have found this also to be true while only running VR with our system. Let me explain this further for the benefit of others reading this post.

1. The need for additional 'motion compensation', or motion removal arises from the fact that the VR tracking engine doesn't distinguish between the movements of the drivers head or the motion chassis in real life (IRL). Or in other words, the VR position tracking engine assumes that the movement of the motion chassis IRL, is the movement of the head in VR.

2. Mo' money, mo' problems, as the Notorious BIG song goes. So with high travel systems you can imagine this problem gets much worse. But its not only more travel but also how you interpret motion or the motion algorithm. Systems that try to recreate 'sustained G's' often pitch and roll the driver to extreme angles to try to sell you on this 'effect'. example:

3. What also matters but is less talked about is where the base station (trackers) are placed. Placing the base station on the moving chassis, does cancel out the false cues. Here is an off-road ATV that we did for a corporate office with 18" of travel that had the "solid state" base station firmly mounted to the roll cage: https://www.instagram.com/p/BwalMn-FbxC but many base stations are not solid state, and have a delicate armature of spinning mirrors which would fault over time. More recently scene trackers with external cameras can capture the chassis/wheel as the base point, but its not deterministic at all...

4. Lastly overly exaggerated motions of pitch and roll also require you to make other adjustments. Fixed monitors might have to be chassis mounted, excessive affects steering inputs, and various other stress loads on the chassis and issues. This is where tuning, actuator placement and having good algorithms also matters.

Sigma does not believe in 'effects' based motion or exaggerated movements. Maybe we are right, maybe we are wrong, but staying true to suspension based motion and focusing on signal quality and authenticity is our approach. It's something that is also objective, can be measured and verified. That being said there is still so much you can do with a 'simple' 3-DOF setup without marketing gimmicks, made up effects and overpromoting words like haptics. ;-) Just keep it real. Don't do what you can't and do what you can well.

But proper integration of motion cues can help tremendously with VR immersion. And this is why many also say less is more, less of the travel effect and more of the fine details.

 

[helios1234]

Thanks for the detailed response on VR compensation.

With the DK6, and your future support for flight sim, perhaps VR compensation would be necessary - I'm not sure.

On another issue, how does one decide between a 3 post vs 4 post actuator setup? Would a 3 post setup centred around the seat achieve the same results as 4 post?

 

[NetLawMan]

Hi.
With the added weight of the gseat/Gbelt, plus me, plus the decked out rig, I wonder if I am pushing the practical weight limits of my dbox system. That system has a capacity of 1000lbs, but measures weight real time in NM. While the system monitor shows ~1050nm at rest, and the max for the system is 1900nm, I see the motor temp is hitting its peak with titles like dirt rally.

I was considering the dk6, but that cuts the weight capacity by 20%. What are you thoughts about feasibility?

 

[SigmaMotion]

Thanks for the detailed response on VR compensation.

With the DK6, and your future support for flight sim, perhaps VR compensation would be necessary - I'm not sure.

On another issue, how does one decide between a 3 post vs 4 post actuator setup? Would a 3 post setup centered around the seat achieve the same results as 4 post?

Perhaps it will be needed. We like to approach problems from first principles, or from their root, and would like to do the same with VR without additional IMU sensors or mounting. There are so many VR headsets and software/car combinations that this might be a hard problem to solve without fumbling with additions sensors, mounts and trusting that everyone will install them properly etc... We still get many calls from people who do not connect their actuators properly and complain that the chassis twists when turning left or right. :-P.... But having the real world measurements of the chassis width/length gives some real world metrics. We can use this to calculate and subtract from the VR plane if needed. And this might be the simplest solution but has other caveats... But for HMD with camera trackers, just having a plane mounted up front that the camera trackers can establish as the room might be sufficient. Will send out more information the more we develop and test!

Our 3-post setup is really good. Barry made a video of it here:

He runs his settings quite low and our algorithms have improved much since.

The result with a 3-actuator setup is 90% the same, where a three post is lacking is it cannot differentiate between hitting the curbs on the front left or front right, and the weight capacity is lower. BUT you can always purchase the motor/actuator combo from us at a later time and upgrade to a 4-post setup for the same price as a complete 4-post package, plus the additional shipping fees. The price for the 3-post is $3900 USD. That's a lot of money, but its the best we can do without compromising on performance/quality. It's really a great system to start with.

 

[NetLawMan]

Hi.
With the added weight of the gseat/Gbelt, plus me, plus the decked out rig, I wonder if I am pushing the practical weight limits of my dbox system. That system has a capacity of 1000lbs, but measures weight real time in NM. While the system monitor shows ~1050nm at rest, and the max for the system is 1900nm, I see the motor temp is hitting its peak with titles like dirt rally.

I was considering the dk6, but that cuts the weight capacity by 20%. What are you thoughts about feasibility?

My mistake. Motor temp was only at 50% of max. Spec on the website refers to ambient temp.

The question is still open though, for the DK6, is a total weight of 550-700lbs total still low enough to allow the dk6 to maximize speed and power?