Thanks @dethgrind666 . Appreciate the feedback. More to come. We still need to separate out the shift layer, as requested by the community but first adding some flight titles. Mainly DCS, MSF2020 and X-Plane. Do you sim any flight titles?
Authorised Vendor DK Sigma Motion System | USA Made
- Thread starter SigmaMotion
- Start date
yeah, im waiting for the update for the MSFS2020 when that happens ill figure out a way to mount my hotas to the rig
We had several clients inquire about financing our system. We get it and we did it.
We are happy to introduce our partnership with Klarna, providing our customers with more flexibility when paying. Klarna is known for offering 4 installment for large purchases.
*** For customers in select countries only. *** [unfortunately]
#klarna #installment #paylater #dk2 #actuators #simracing #sim #simracinghardware #simracingsetup #racing #motion #madeinusa
We are happy to introduce our partnership with Klarna, providing our customers with more flexibility when paying. Klarna is known for offering 4 installment for large purchases.
*** For customers in select countries only. *** [unfortunately]
#klarna #installment #paylater #dk2 #actuators #simracing #sim #simracinghardware #simracingsetup #racing #motion #madeinusa
Totally agree and thanks for the compliment. dbox is a great system, and has been around for many moons and paved the way for many motion companies in this now specialized niche.
Personally I believe its all about the 'algorithm' and complete integration, than just number of titles integrated. (could be or are probably wrong lol) But from what we have found out in our 'rough' market research is that most people play only 2-3 titles most of the time. And that majority of the people that purchase motion systems, only spend time in three titles, iRacing, AC, ACC and then Dirt2.0, rFactor and R3E. This is why we covered these games initially, although more are coming including flight. (xplane12, MSF2020, DCS)
We recently received requests for more older titles like Dirt4. IL-4 and Dirt Rally but its a VERY rare request just like F1 2010. So having 60+ titles of support is a credible achievement and speaks to the legacy of any system, but I think less than 10 in totally are actually played continuously by the majority. And personally (for whatever it matters) I would rather have 10-20 titles well integrated, then just being able to say we support 1000+ titles including Fast and the Ferocious Indie Video game released in 2001. LOL. :-P Also many of the older titles have limited motion frequency, 60Hz or less exposed physics.
To counter argue, I think being able to do a few races in iRacing, then Dirt4, get all pumped and then jump into MSF2020 and just cruise through the pyramids around Egypt in a glider with motion is ultimate value!
Thanks again!
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Totally agree. I spend the majority of time in DR 2, AC/ACC, and F1 2021. That said, it is equally important to me to be able to bounce around in Forza or Grid Legends once in a while. Not to mention the benefit of sharing the simcade experience with others in the family who aren’t into hard core simulation (and all of the intensity that comes with it).
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Good point ! ;-)
We don't really talk much about the DK foot design a lot but its really quite special and we borrowed from a lot of various other technologies/projects we developed in the past like the full motion vehicle below (+3000lbs). The two CNC'ed plates sit between two sheets of Teflon, custom fit and integrated to allow the wheel to slide effortlessly when going through full travel extension (12"). The top plate is cut to form the specific wheel and the bottom plate has cutouts to bite into carpet or other surfaces. Also Teflon on Teflon is one of the most 'slippery' material combinations. Low coefficient of friction.
#cowboy #engineering
Any specific questions?
Here is a technical summary of the layers and their 'haptic' or high frequency integration: https://www.sigmaintegrale.com/document-motion-layers-defined/
------------------------------------ different perspective below ------------------------------------------------
The word haptics is also one of those words that paints with a wide brush. It's original definition does not completely satisfy what the prosumer simulation industry uses it for which is mostly two things:
1) Painted on "effects" or an aesthetic layer that is added to sim titles. For example, in AC driving over certain geo-fenced areas in a game, triggers a specific "haptic" feedback in the wheel, motion system etc. For example, AC does this with out of bounds areas, where they simply play a sine wave to represent the irregularities of being "off-road". This is an efficient way to model a track, also improves track loading times. Some other motion systems trigger any lateral vehicle motion (or loss of traction, another word that is often used but loosely ambiguous by definition) as a "skid" and not a slide, which is a false positives in some situations like dirt oval racing in iRacing, where the slide you maintain IS acceptable and should not trigger a violent judder from the motion system. Then when an actual skid does happen, its is the same when it happens on dirt, snow, ice, concrete, asphalts etc... Since its a painted on "effect" that is up to the discretion of the "artist" and not real high-frequency suspension feedback. Hope that makes sense.
2) High frequency telemetry organically derived from properly modeled sim environments using high frequency physics engines through a low latency real-time embedded system is the preferred or the only way we see achieving the true "haptics". Or the expected high-resolution, immediate feedback you get from racing a car. The best way to achieve this is to control the complete system and have the software support high-frequency output. For example most of Codemaster games are designed for console play or larger audiences, so they pump up their graphics and cap the physics engine at 60Hz. This is understandable and efficient for their audience and hence also why you will find more effects with such titles. There are still clever ways around that limitation that Sigma utilizes, but that is our little secret. ;-)
So "haptics" can mean painted on 'effects' that are not necessarily real but are enough to sell the experience and immerse the driver. (common in movie theatres). Or it can also mean having the capability (mechanically, software/algorithmically and electronically) to reproduce high frequency sensation, like engine vibration, rumble strips etc... Sigma focuses on the latter in a complete turn key system.
Simple diagram explaining "haptics" below. Technically a mechanical keyboard has 'haptics' as you press the button you feel it, that's haptics or touch, then there typically is a switch that clicks and gives you "tactile" feedback or a response to your action. In motion systems, the drivers input places that vehicle in specific situations, which moves the chassis and gives you Kinesthetic sensation and when you press the accelerator, the engine revs and gives you tactile feedback via our engine vibration later. ;-)
Coming soon
Super helpful. When I think of movement, I think of the things that the experiences from a suspension and wheel perspective (bumps, dips, obstacles, etc). I think of haptics as road texture, engine vibration, and the other things that the car relays to use about the vehicle and the environment.
Not sure if that is correct, but that is my lay-person’s attempt to understand.
So for the following classes of games Shawn can we expect with your system?
-F1 2021
-DR 2
-Iracing
-AC/ACC
Also, for someone like me who would consider moving from Dbox for the added travel usable in DR specifically, what would be the things I should/could expect to experience with the DK system (including what you view that you do better than other companies in the space)? What makes your system unique - in terms of what you have brought to the sim table, and in terms of the capabilities/refinement of the DK2 system relative to other systems.
Yup, bang on, that's the way we define it as well. It's important to have the right definitions of the terms before diving in deeper. But you are right, haptics by our community definition are those finer details coming in at higher frequencies that are typically harder to algorithmically/mechanically represent in hard real-time. ;-) You can see how with some other systems, you just get basic, roll, pitch and gentle heave, and then they have to add transducers for EV (engine vibration) and RV (road vibration) layers. Transducers are great, and very cost effective but not at the same level as moving the entire chassis.
You can listen to this Motion Talk 4 video that discusses similar ideas and might be helpful:
So F12021 or any Codemasters game and DR20 are both limited to 60Hz, for haptics or high frequency. This means things like RV and EV don't have the best source signal, BUT we do some clever programming to mitigate that issue and in my opinion feels great:
iRacing, AC and ACC are all very good with their 300Hz plus of motion which we again use for road texture and EV as you outlined above. Rumble strips and sweeping through the rpm all feels amazing.
The added travel is definitely nice, and we considered 3" and 4" before too. BUT what we have found is that 2" just happen to be the sweet spot. It's enough for circuit, oval, rally and even the Trophy Trucks. ;-) But what really makes any system unique is the full stack approach or being able to control all aspects of production. It's actually in our name, Sigma or the summation of all parts, and Integrale, well integration, meaning that its the complete and proper integration of all aspects of the system that make it a great and unique. You see this with certain car companies, engine is great, chassis is bad, or chassis is great but the reliability is poor, or the components are great but the installation is bad etc.... Its always a compromise but in order to get the best possible system you have to be able to control and build the mechanical, electrical and software components from the ground up to final project goals. So in short, we make our own actuators from billet aluminum, make our own controllers, make our own software, algorithms, control boards and embedded systems. This allows us to control quality, make rapid changes, upgrades, iterations and even push over the air upgrades/changes to the customer without having them install and uninstall. A complete buttoned down turn key solution if you will.
So that is our product philosophy, other companies are different and its hard to comment, as I am of course biased so not in the best position to answer for them. But you can see that some motion companies rely on the 'do-it-yourself' model, which is great if you want a 3D printer and have time on your hands. (or the save money and assemble yourself, IKEA model) Others companies are great at effects and have massive effect libraries to call on when game companies don't or can't provide specific physics data. Others use open-source software (like the Linux/Unix model) that maybe isn't the easiest or prettiest to use but allows them to rebrand their systems and sell it like their own. But our approach was always to keep the signal as native/raw/organic as possible, don't fake it and do it well or don't do it all.
Hope that makes sense, and thanks for the question. I hope it helps others understand the Sigma difference as well. Oh, and we all great up racing and playing with cars, in some form or another. And in the end there is no such thing as a perfect system, its an annoying response I know, but it really is what best suits your needs. Our goal is to have a mechanically SOLID system, well supported, unique authentic algorithm, EASY to use software, that is turn key. So that you can get in, drive and enjoy as quickly as possible.
All parts of the system are important, but I think the algorithms are most important in this space and at this time, as most companies reuse or just do basic implementations of motion interpretation. This is actually quite a science and requires a lot of effort to do right. Motion queueing, repeatability, dynamic scaling, its really a huge topic and out of scope of this discussion. ;-)
I see this statement sometimes, but I don't really understand what it means by, "working closely with the Sim developers." I also don't think this statement applies today anymore. At least not in today's more modern era of sim racing. Let me give you a couple of examples.
1) Some games have splash screens before they load, showing Thrustmaster or Fanatec logos. Does that mean that SimuCube, SimSteering and other systems are sub-standard to that specific title? What about titles that don't show those brand names? Are they all detuned because they don't work closely with the specific software provider?
I don't know, but since we don't have any more details on what that actually means, then its hard to say what the actual benefits are. But also I don't think it makes any business sense to discriminate between hardware vendors and close yourself of from other potential customers. Specially since game development is a volume, network effect kind of business. ;-) Having tried both Thrustmaster, Logitech and SimSteering systems in a particular sim title that advertised Thrustmaster and Fanatec while loading, I still found SimSteering being superior...
2) Some games have specific motion/telemetry output options in the settings where you can provide the UDP address and port information. Would games create a different telemetry output for other motion providers than others? Would they limit the frequency, data or layers for one provider over another. I don't know for sure but also I don't think logically it make sense for them to do that. Would game developers spend time creating custom API's for one vendor and not another. Seems wasteful, specially since its just granting access to already available telemetry stream.
And if software companies did discriminate between hardware vendors, then their direct competitors would take advantage of this weakness and create more open API's in their software and market it as such. Works with all wheels and pedals systems etc... It would be opening the door to competition, just like AC is still the most popular title for mods. ;-)
Seems more like marketing wordplay than anything else. Could be wrong.
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Right. I agree. There is a tendency to minimize the value of IP (and the effort it takes to develop it over time). That is a big reason I try to buy from companies that actually invest heavily in developing tech (inc algorithms), as anyone can manufacture and ship readily accessible components after slapping their name on it.
Not sure I am totally in line with you here. It’s quite common for two companies to deeply integrate their products, where one company believes the other has tech that can be used to showcase their own. For example, many companies make their accessories available only on apple devices because they have determined that the apple platform is better suited to achieve the optimal outcome.
That said. We aren’t talking about apple devices or even sim wheels. And you are correct that it indeed may not matter anymore.
The main inquiry is to understand whether you are working closely with game developers to maximize the benefit of your system, which at a hardware level appears to be 1st class
Good point with Apple, and they do that to control quality at the expense of compatibility. Playstation's platform only Grand Turismo 7 is another such example.
But the short answer is yes and no. Some software companies we do contact for guidance and access to API's but most modern titles have excellent documentation and support fully available. Where I think this made sense in the past is when API's were not open and custom requests had to be made, specially for telemetry data specific to motion.
Do you know or have any specific examples of a motion company working with a software provider for something specific? Genuinely interested.
