Authorised Vendor DK Sigma Motion System | USA Made

Hi again,

Can't seem to find the warranty policy on your site. Can you tell me how many years warranty, and what kind of warranty you provide for overseas buyers?

Thanks,
Hi Helios1234,

I am sorry you are correct, the warranty information was moved and will be put back shortly. We offer a standard 1 year warranty on the actuators and 3-year manufacturers warranty on the motors and controller worldwide.

Thank-you.
Peter
 
The DK2+ and DK6 use exactly the same motors and lead screw and hence have a rated capacity of 200lbs per actuator or 800lbs total. This is our in-house performance optimized limit for most games at most settings although the motors and actuators can do a lot more. In short we like to have a large safety overhead and not just spec chase for marketing purposes. Each sim setup is so unique and so different we need a large safety margin, 45% in this case for the motor. Some chassis setups might be rear heavy, some might carry various driver weights each time, other chassis might be on very uneven ground, etc... lots of variations, and we feel like we've almost seen them all. :-P

So in short, 800lb total chassis limit for DK2+ and DK6.

As for measuring total chassis weight, this is rather cumbersome unless you have access to 4 scales. We use automotive scales and they have served us well (pic below) but I would not trust our motors or another motion companies metrics when it comes to measuring total weight. Use the right tool for the job. ;-)

We have had clients, with seat tensioners and "traction loss" platforms and heavy components mounted on our DK2+ systems that were very rear biased and they continue to perform well although we always recommend balancing your systems as best as you can to share the load between the motors.

Cheers!

1653145546512.png
 
For the DK6, what do you recommend structurally to manage the force and flex of the chassis by the actuators? IOW, how do we avoid actuators moving in a certain way such that it twists the frame, perhaps snapping an 80/20 joint? I noticed that in many videos of 6” actuators being used, they are being used with solid frames (not 80/20).
 
Hi.
With the added weight of the gseat/Gbelt, plus me, plus the decked out rig, I wonder if I am pushing the practical weight limits of my dbox system. That system has a capacity of 1000lbs, but measures weight real time in NM. While the system monitor shows ~1050nm at rest, and the max for the system is 1900nm, I see the motor temp is hitting its peak with titles like dirt rally.

I was considering the dk6, but that cuts the weight capacity by 20%. What are you thoughts about feasibility?
Hello there,

As Peter had mentioned, our weight capacity has a very large margin of safety. It was determined with a lot of testing, rather than theoretical limits that other motion providers use. I'm not sure I understand DBox's NM (torque) readings and I'm not familiar with their weight limits, so I can't comment there.

When we set a weight limit for our DK systems - it includes the total weight of chassis and driver - the total loaded weight. We also take into consideration that most chassis are unbalanced to a degree. Therefore, as long as your total system weight including yourself is under 800lb (which sounds like you are), you are okay.

There are some edge cases where this doesn't apply. We've seen a few extreme cases where the rear actuators were installed directly under or even in front of the driver, with the front actuators all the way up front. This will place near 100% of the weight on the rear actuators while the front ones are lifting, causing issues. The entire chassis is essentially teetering on the rear actuators. However, this is more of a problem for installation and can be easily addressed by better-placing the actuators, and does not affect the great majority of our users.

I hope that helps!

Howard
 
Hello there,

As Peter had mentioned, our weight capacity has a very large margin of safety. It was determined with a lot of testing, rather than theoretical limits that other motion providers use. I'm not sure I understand DBox's NM (torque) readings and I'm not familiar with their weight limits, so I can't comment there.

When we set a weight limit for our DK systems - it includes the total weight of chassis and driver - the total loaded weight. We also take into consideration that most chassis are unbalanced to a degree. Therefore, as long as your total system weight including yourself is under 800lb (which sounds like you are), you are okay.

There are some edge cases where this doesn't apply. We've seen a few extreme cases where the rear actuators were installed directly under or even in front of the driver, with the front actuators all the way up front. This will place near 100% of the weight on the rear actuators while the front ones are lifting, causing issues. The entire chassis is essentially teetering on the rear actuators. However, this is more of a problem for installation and can be easily addressed by better-placing the actuators, and does not affect the great majority of our users.

I hope that helps!

Howard
Thank you very much. Your videos are highly educational by the way!

The dbox is 250/actuator. The torque rating I believe measures the force exerted by the motors in real time (so I think it is an indicator of reaching the motor’s limit for each actuator). I assume because the effect of a static weight vs an intense fast moving weight has a different impact on the motors.

I added up weights to get an estimate because I don’t have a scale for actual measurement. I presume my margin of error could be up to 50 lbs.

You raise a good point though. I would say that the weight distribution is 40% in the front and 60% in the back. It sounds like your system would have no issue handling that.

Thx and I look forward to trying the dk6.
 
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I can’t speak to the DK6 but I would venture to say my rig (P1X)is on the heavier side with a GS-5/G Belt plus me at 170lbs on the back. DD2, SimLab pedal slider and baseplate (heavy), plus shifter, handbrake, various screens/boxes, etc. The DK+ has zero issues. Pictures and videos don’t do it justice, very beefy actuators.
I am considering the DK2+ plus my concern is around the compatible games available for the DK actuators versus what you can get with a D-Box G5 (new ones)...did you also share this concern and what do you do to remediate it? Thanks
 
I am considering the DK2+ plus my concern is around the compatible games available for the DK actuators versus what you can get with a D-Box G5 (new ones)...did you also share this concern and what do you do to remediate it? Thanks
Personally, I did not have these concerns as they already supported the games I play like iRacing, ACC, and the other major racing sims. DBOX does support a lot of games but my interest didn't include anything outside of sim racing and maybe limited flight titles.

I was ready to buy the Gen 3 4250i from DBOX when someone asked me to check out Sigma. I have a very heavy rig and weight capacity was a top priority. I probably sent them messages every day for a month asking questions because I couldn't find a lot online outside of some forums. I then watched Barry from Sim Racing Garage do a review on the older DK2, then the DK2+ but still had questions.

Ultimately, I went with Sigma for two reasons: customer service and vision.
They spent a lot of time walking me through my concerns and explaining their vision of what they think motion should be like in a sim. I'm sure you'll be happy with either system but ask yourself which theory of motion you prefer and the choice is made. Both are great but the two have different mindsets on motion. Is it perfect? No, but what system is? I can talk to Sigma anytime I feel the need to have something addressed and that is worth a lot to me. Anyway, sorry for the long post but no matter what system you pick, you're going to have a blast. I'm still new to actuators but feel free to ask any questions and I'll give it a shot.
 
I would love to understand the the practical effect of the different visions of motion as I ponder moving from dbox 1.5” to sigma 6”. IOW, for users of both, how is the experience similar? How is it different?
 
@SigmaMotion

Over the past month i did a deep dive in the world of sim racing actuators setups, looking for the "best" system around.
I've looked at Dbox, PT, Sigma, etc.

First of all i want to tell to you guys that i'm exceptionally impressed by the level of deep thinking, explanations, rationales, etc that you provide on your various communication channels.
Congrats, really. Some of your papers where really "eye-openers".

I have a few questions:

1) Software: the roadmap on your website is not updated, so i'm a bit worried about the support on that, new features, etc. Especially because probably software development is not your "core know-how", and it's a very tricky thing to manage. Specifically:
- Any idea on when you will be adding other motion/haptic layers? And if so, which ones?
- Do you think you will be supporting F122? (i use iRacing mostly, but not going to miss that in VR...)
- With the transparency that you always show, which would you say are the pros/cons of your software (today and with some development) vs. more established solutions used by other hardware companies like Sim Racing Studio?

2) I'm not clear on what exactly is your "Velocity Trap". What does it do? I understand it's compatible only with iRacing and AC, are you planning to add more?

3) Despite your nice explanation, i also could not understand your paper on the "negative latency", what would that be supposed to be doing? What would be the actual benefit?

Thanks
 
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Did I miss the DK6 videos or are they not out yet?

After watching Niels Heusinkveld's motion against motion, I'm talking myself out of the "requirement" of traction loss. I'm in VR, so subtle movements with a focus more on environment and less on sustained g's sounds like my kinda party.

Also, it sounds like there could be a potential for an add-on in the future, but only if it's done right, which is the only way i'd want it as an add-on. Loving what I'm seeing so far and leaning heavily towards a DK6 right now. Also getting really excited about a few yrs from now with some serious competition happening in the motion market.
 
Personally, I did not have these concerns as they already supported the games I play like iRacing, ACC, and the other major racing sims. DBOX does support a lot of games but my interest didn't include anything outside of sim racing and maybe limited flight titles.

I was ready to buy the Gen 3 4250i from DBOX when someone asked me to check out Sigma. I have a very heavy rig and weight capacity was a top priority. I probably sent them messages every day for a month asking questions because I couldn't find a lot online outside of some forums. I then watched Barry from Sim Racing Garage do a review on the older DK2, then the DK2+ but still had questions.

Ultimately, I went with Sigma for two reasons: customer service and vision.
They spent a lot of time walking me through my concerns and explaining their vision of what they think motion should be like in a sim. I'm sure you'll be happy with either system but ask yourself which theory of motion you prefer and the choice is made. Both are great but the two have different mindsets on motion. Is it perfect? No, but what system is? I can talk to Sigma anytime I feel the need to have something addressed and that is worth a lot to me. Anyway, sorry for the long post but no matter what system you pick, you're going to have a blast. I'm still new to actuators but feel free to ask any questions and I'll give it a shot.
Thank-you for the kind words @BlackFlagSimRacing and very good points.
  • each setup, each chassis and each persons has their own layers of subjective influence, we knew this early on when we were fundamentally thinking of motion. Then our software engineer took it back to the basics, focusing on the fundamentals, not effects but first principles thinking in computer science. This means redefining the problem at its root. So we started there, and we ended up with the term 'motion integrity', which I think best describes our ways.
  • perfection is something you should definitely aim for but will never achieve, its a strange trait in human nature, but it leads to some amazing technological developments. Sigma is by no means perfect, we are however constantly trying to improve and provide value to this community. We win some and we lose some. ;-)
  • There is no bad product. We speak highly of other motion systems as well, and have used dbox is some crazy projects in the past. We made some good friendships there with that team but ultimately saw some things we wanted to improve on and ultimately had to for some projects which led us to this path.
  • In the end you are going to buy what you want to buy, no one can change that, our only reason for this thread and engagement to give you clear data to discern the difference. Obviously we can improve on that point some more. ;-)
 
I would love to understand the the practical effect of the different visions of motion as I ponder moving from dbox 1.5” to sigma 6”. IOW, for users of both, how is the experience similar? How is it different?
We will release a video of DK6 in the coming months, its going to be a while longer. It's been backburnered for too long I agree and I do not want to make more promises, but we got a lot of DK2+ orders recently and adding some flight software as well, which was a challenge of its own when it comes to the algorithms. Heave in the air is much different than heave on the ground and this will be directly related to DK6 as well. Once released we will then have to listen to the community for feedback and start making changes. Triple the travel is significant and you are right it does fundamentally change monitor mounting, game play, VR experience etc...
 
Did I miss the DK6 videos or are they not out yet?

After watching Niels Heusinkveld's motion against motion, I'm talking myself out of the "requirement" of traction loss. I'm in VR, so subtle movements with a focus more on environment and less on sustained g's sounds like my kinda party.

Also, it sounds like there could be a potential for an add-on in the future, but only if it's done right, which is the only way i'd want it as an add-on. Loving what I'm seeing so far and leaning heavily towards a DK6 right now. Also getting really excited about a few yrs from now with some serious competition happening in the motion market.
DK6 videos are not out yet, we are still in testing, development and pre-order stage for the product and will be a couple months yet. We have several flight integrators also patiently waiting. So sorry for the delays but we have been swamped just meeting current DK2/DK2+ orders.

Traction loss, I personally don't like that word, but I know what it means to the community and why people use it. Similarly haptics is marketed to mean the fine, higher frequency details from the simulation engine (if it provides it) or made up effects. This is kind of similar to how Porsche calls its electric car the Taycan Turbo. There is no Turbo there but I get the point. lol. :-P

Boosted Media did a good review on a 'traction loss' or yaw/sway product and showed some of the issues with tracking, such as in iRacing when the interior of the car stays fixed on the screen but they are moving several inches from center. But lots of questions for proper integration exist without having to climb into a 4-foot mechanical throne.... ;-P
 
@SigmaMotion

Over the past month i did a deep dive in the world of sim racing actuators setups, looking for the "best" system around.
I've looked at Dbox, PT, Sigma, etc.

First of all i want to tell to you guys that i'm exceptionally impressed by the level of deep thinking, explanations, rationales, etc that you provide on your various communication channels.
Congrats, really. Some of your papers where really "eye-openers".

I have a few questions:

1) Software: the roadmap on your website is not updated, so i'm a bit worried about the support on that, new features, etc. Especially because probably software development is not your "core know-how", and it's a very tricky thing to manage. Specifically:
- Any idea on when you will be adding other motion/haptic layers? And if so, which ones?
- Do you think you will be supporting F122? (i use iRacing mostly, but not going to miss that in VR...)
- With the transparency that you always show, which would you say are the pros/cons of your software (today and with some development) vs. more established solutions used by other hardware companies like Sim Racing Studio?

2) I'm not clear on what exactly is your "Velocity Trap". What does it do? I understand it's compatible only with iRacing and AC, are you planning to add more?

3) Despite your nice explanation, i also could not understand your paper on the "negative latency", what would that be supposed to be doing? What would be the actual benefit?

Thanks
@SigmaMotion nothing for me? :)
 
@SigmaMotion

Over the past month i did a deep dive in the world of sim racing actuators setups, looking for the "best" system around.
I've looked at Dbox, PT, Sigma, etc.

First of all i want to tell to you guys that i'm exceptionally impressed by the level of deep thinking, explanations, rationales, etc that you provide on your various communication channels.
Congrats, really. Some of your papers where really "eye-openers".

I have a few questions:

1) Software: the roadmap on your website is not updated, so i'm a bit worried about the support on that, new features, etc. Especially because probably software development is not your "core know-how", and it's a very tricky thing to manage. Specifically:
- Any idea on when you will be adding other motion/haptic layers? And if so, which ones?
- Do you think you will be supporting F122? (i use iRacing mostly, but not going to miss that in VR...)
- With the transparency that you always show, which would you say are the pros/cons of your software (today and with some development) vs. more established solutions used by other hardware companies like Sim Racing Studio?

2) I'm not clear on what exactly is your "Velocity Trap". What does it do? I understand it's compatible only with iRacing and AC, are you planning to add more?

3) Despite your nice explanation, i also could not understand your paper on the "negative latency", what would that be supposed to be doing? What would be the actual benefit?

Thanks
Thanks vannib!

1) Thanks, software is the abstraction layer to motion and very important to us. We are working as hard as possible to add features, fix bugs and add more titles. However we need to do it right. Some of our algorithms, like our Engine Vibration took 7+ months to develop, and recently our air heave was the same. This is the nature of doing things right and from scratch without relying on other open source software which we would have no control of and could not improve in the future. We will update our software roadmap shortly. You are right we missed a release in April 2022, but now looks like the first week of June 2022. This will include our new air-heave algorithm, DCS and X-Plane11 sims etc, which aligns itself for some of our DK6 customers waiting a few months now.

Additionally air-heave development might be in some parts added to our roll and pitch road algorithms to give them more definition at the limits rather than just saturating. Will write more about that when it becomes available. Should give the cars more feel at the limit and not just saturate, something our test driver Kenton Koch wanted to feel more.

So the other two slider we will be adding this year are the overall intensity slider and separate our the shift, braking and acceleration layers for better control.

All software/firmware updates happen automatically by just restarting the software.

F1 2022 should not be difficult to add, most of companies, just refresh the surface but the core physics engine and connections will stay the same. I've added it to our list roadmap. Thanks.

Sim Racing Studio and others, as far as I know, do their motion algorithms within the Windows OS which is a non-deterministic system and hence cannot guarantee real-time motion code execution. This topic is very detailed and past the scope of this thread, but Windows runs many processes in the background and needs to schedule them in priority order which you cannot control. We've played with many tools out there, that manage or prioritize Windows processes, such as this great tool https://kingstar.com/products/rtos/ that we used for this project:
and also tried running other Linux RTOS systems to control our DK system before settling on a hard real-time system from Texas Instruments. Its simple and the RTOS is only 16KB, lol, but it means that certain algorithms need to be programmed in low level assembly language for this hard real-time motion execution. To us this is a guarantee or a necessity and ensures our idea of motion integrity, otherwise we are just guessing and assuming. But what this also means is that our software takes longer to develop and that we are starting from scratch when it comes to motion layer development. This is computer science level of thinking and implementation, its not easy at all, but this is the only way we think we can control the quality of the software going forward. Many of our current customers are very happy with the system as it is at the moment. We are not, lol, and will constantly improve our algorithms with time and priority. It's hard to comment on other software but they often have simpler relational algorithms for trying to replicate g-forces and/or using pre-programmed effects for certain conditions. One example is dirt oval, where the cars are 50% of the time sliding sideways with massive aero, very soft suspension and low tire pressure. With effect based motion the cars always shudder, an effect that 'resembles' the tire sliding sideways. The effect feels the same when sliding sideways on a clay like track, as they do when on grass, ice, concrete, dirt, asphalt, sand etc... this is the problem with effect based motion. It triggers false positives. We don't play that game. (no pun intended lol)

Hope that helps. ;-)
2) Velocity Trap is a fundamental layer that is available in all titles. It removes the robotic like nature of typical motion control systems and better translates the analog nature of vehicle dynamics. It's a difficult concept to grasp and we are awful at marketing/explaining. Will do another write up on it. Here is a video that talks about it and shows the visual evidence:

3) Negative Latency was our terrible attempt at humor for April Fools. My apologies. Although we hear some wild marketing claims out there and were taking a slight jab at those. "Never loose traction ever again," is another one I still don't understand which is often used for traction loss platforms. :) But the joke was that Sigma would develop an algorithm that predicts the future and where the motion will be to give the most response or zero latency system. lol. We would be doing time travel basically. That being said, we did look into delay based netcode, such as this:
but its not necessary as we do not have vast distances and network hops to worry about. ;-)

Thanks for the great questions! Cheers!
 
Thanks vannib!

1) Thanks, software is the abstraction layer to motion and very important to us. We are working as hard as possible to add features, fix bugs and add more titles. However we need to do it right. Some of our algorithms, like our Engine Vibration took 7+ months to develop, and recently our air heave was the same. This is the nature of doing things right and from scratch without relying on other open source software which we would have no control of and could not improve in the future. We will update our software roadmap shortly. You are right we missed a release in April 2022, but now looks like the first week of June 2022. This will include our new air-heave algorithm, DCS and X-Plane11 sims etc, which aligns itself for some of our DK6 customers waiting a few months now.

Additionally air-heave development might be in some parts added to our roll and pitch road algorithms to give them more definition at the limits rather than just saturating. Will write more about that when it becomes available. Should give the cars more feel at the limit and not just saturate, something our test driver Kenton Koch wanted to feel more.

So the other two slider we will be adding this year are the overall intensity slider and separate our the shift, braking and acceleration layers for better control.

All software/firmware updates happen automatically by just restarting the software.

F1 2022 should not be difficult to add, most of companies, just refresh the surface but the core physics engine and connections will stay the same. I've added it to our list roadmap. Thanks.

Sim Racing Studio and others, as far as I know, do their motion algorithms within the Windows OS which is a non-deterministic system and hence cannot guarantee real-time motion code execution. This topic is very detailed and past the scope of this thread, but Windows runs many processes in the background and needs to schedule them in priority order which you cannot control. We've played with many tools out there, that manage or prioritize Windows processes, such as this great tool https://kingstar.com/products/rtos/ that we used for this project:
and also tried running other Linux RTOS systems to control our DK system before settling on a hard real-time system from Texas Instruments. Its simple and the RTOS is only 16KB, lol, but it means that certain algorithms need to be programmed in low level assembly language for this hard real-time motion execution. To us this is a guarantee or a necessity and ensures our idea of motion integrity, otherwise we are just guessing and assuming. But what this also means is that our software takes longer to develop and that we are starting from scratch when it comes to motion layer development. This is computer science level of thinking and implementation, its not easy at all, but this is the only way we think we can control the quality of the software going forward. Many of our current customers are very happy with the system as it is at the moment. We are not, lol, and will constantly improve our algorithms with time and priority. It's hard to comment on other software but they often have simpler relational algorithms for trying to replicate g-forces and/or using pre-programmed effects for certain conditions. One example is dirt oval, where the cars are 50% of the time sliding sideways with massive aero, very soft suspension and low tire pressure. With effect based motion the cars always shudder, an effect that 'resembles' the tire sliding sideways. The effect feels the same when sliding sideways on a clay like track, as they do when on grass, ice, concrete, dirt, asphalt, sand etc... this is the problem with effect based motion. It triggers false positives. We don't play that game. (no pun intended lol)

Hope that helps. ;-)
2) Velocity Trap is a fundamental layer that is available in all titles. It removes the robotic like nature of typical motion control systems and better translates the analog nature of vehicle dynamics. It's a difficult concept to grasp and we are awful at marketing/explaining. Will do another write up on it. Here is a video that talks about it and shows the visual evidence:

3) Negative Latency was our terrible attempt at humor for April Fools. My apologies. Although we hear some wild marketing claims out there and were taking a slight jab at those. "Never loose traction ever again," is another one I still don't understand which is often used for traction loss platforms. :) But the joke was that Sigma would develop an algorithm that predicts the future and where the motion will be to give the most response or zero latency system. lol. We would be doing time travel basically. That being said, we did look into delay based netcode, such as this:
but its not necessary as we do not have vast distances and network hops to worry about. ;-)

Thanks for the great questions! Cheers!
Loved the bit of the April fool, albeit it made me feel the ignorant that i am.

Just want to let you know that if i buy a 4 actuator system, and i think i will, it will be from you guys.

Either you "pretend" well, or you really know what you are talking about, are passionate about it, and focused on "doing the right thing".

I'm sold. Good job :)
 
Loved the bit of the April fool, albeit it made me feel the ignorant that i am.

Just want to let you know that if i buy a 4 actuator system, and i think i will, it will be from you guys.

Either you "pretend" well, or you really know what you are talking about, are passionate about it, and focused on "doing the right thing".

I'm sold. Good job :)
It was a dumb joke, but it does overlap with some reality so it wasn't too clear. We are not good at jokes either it seems. Maybe awkward dad jokes followed by silence.

I wish we could just pretend, lol, then we would have 600+ titles supported, over 640,000 effects with Truest G-Forces(tm), and so much traction loss that you would never lose any traction. (ok stopping now)

In all seriousness, those were very good questions and in a world of online marketing, half truths and exuberant claims its really hard to discern what is the best product fit for you. Considering this is also an expensive purchase, it takes time to understand and decide. Ofcourse. Peace!
 
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