Dispensing with the sandbags.

[Lars Hansen]

I'm not entirely sure how to do this politely, to be honest.
Then again, I'm not racing much these days due to time-constraints, so I don't have any particular personal stake in it.
So I'm just going to state a personal opinion, and people can take it for whatever they like.

But can we please get people to stop sandbagging during qualification in the Club races?
I'm not out to start a witch-hunt, so I'm not naming any names. This is simply a general observation.
I started noticing it a few months ago, and now it's becoming just blatantly obvious.
I get that it's a way to challenge yourself against what might be a weaker field, and if you have a YT channel, I'm sure it makes for exhilarating viewing for your followers.

Unfortunately, it also means that you regard the rest of the Club racers as nothing more than cannon-fodder, which is not only f*cking annoying, it's also arrogant to the point of contempt.
Besides, you're not fooling anybody. Once you've raced against the same people 3-4 times you get a pretty good idea of their pace, which means that now you have a bunch of people in front of you who know they'll have to let you through at some point. And if some of these people are newcomers or simply less experienced, you've just increased the chances of a racing incident manifold, for no reason whatsoever.

You wouldn't do it if this was a league-race.
You wouldn't do it if there was a MP ranking-system in place.
So pretty please, with sugar on top.......

<mod-edit: removed foul language>

 

[mr_belowski]

I find both of the issues raised in this thread entirely baffling and without foundation, but that's just my opinion.

Martin said that even using Crew Chief in streams could be interpreted by some as an invasion of their privacy - there's actually a "use driver names" checkbox in the Properties screen. If this is unticked the app won't call any of the drivers by their name. No idea why anyone would want to do this but it's there nonetheless

 

[Matheus Machado]

What I really don't understand about the sim racing community is when a problem like this comes up, why should we always solve it by basically lowering the standards?

This

 

[Calvyn White]

@Martin Fiala I wish to make this perfectly clear I do not have or ever have had an issue with your streams and videos. As they are done in the way the game is intended to be played. You have my full permission and support to continue as you were, as I suspect do others.

 

[Georg Ortner]

Asking for permission to stream a race on TS is the least of my concerns,
even though technically it's not in line with the written regulations,
i am willing to take the admin's word for it.

What i do have a problem with, is how the initial issue was brought forward in a very aggressive manner, creating a toxic environment i don't want to be a part of.
And even worse, he's being backed by staff and other members (be it a minority) for doing so.

I've not broken any RD Club rules by skipping quali.
Never heard another active driver complain about my driving style.

I expect RD to make a clear statement regarding this.

Will the RD Club continue to be a place where drivers of all skill sets are welcome to have fun as long as they are driving in fair manner, or is it going to be transformed into a competitive league, where the quicker guys are only allowed to lap slower cars, but not overtake them?

 

[Case_]

Martin said that even using Crew Chief in streams could be interpreted by some as an invasion of their privacy - there's actually a "use driver names" checkbox in the Properties screen. If this is unticked the app won't call any of the drivers by their name. No idea why anyone would want to do this but it's there nonetheless

I thought there might be an option, but didn't look into it just yet. There's an option for almost anything in CC after all But yeah, I'd rather just keep Crew Chief as he is and point him to a different audio device/track that's not recorded, I think.

Also, please note that the part about Crew Chief calling out the driver names might be considered against the current RD rules is strictly my own assumption based on my own interpretation of the current rules regarding names. The way you put it kinda makes it seem like it is a fact, so I feel it is better to point this out to avoid confusion.

@Martin Fiala I wish to make this perfectly clear I do not have or ever have had an issue with your streams and videos. As they are done in the way the game is intended to be played. You have my full permission and support to continue as you were, as I suspect do others.

Well, one thing can be said about you with a certainty, I think - you sure can take a person to an emotional rollercoaster unlike anyone else I've ever met (well, "met")

(Which really was my way of saying a sincere "thank you", just to make it clear )

 

[Bram Hengeveld]

I'll try to spell it out one more time.

As said before I have sought legal advise on a few technical and privacy issues with regards to the site and I have implemented those advises accordingly in our ToS, Club and League documents over the years. Unless somebody here is an experienced lawyer on the topic ill go by what I was advised to do, you would do the exact same thing if you had the responsibility over this site.

With regards to us not allowing you to stream. That is really just complete nonsense as the rule nor my previous posts even remotely mentioned that. We love streams, the more the merrier of course as we are also fans of sim racing remember?

What we want you to do is just ask for permission. If you do this on Teamspeak and nobody objects you are good to go. Like said, I really can't think of a person who would seriously block such a kind request.

What you don't need to do is ask every person privately or personally for an OK as that is of course just silly and a time-robbing effort.

See it like this. RD is our house and inside this house like in your own house you simply cannot record and broadcasts chat between it visitors without informing them and asking for permission. If I record you in your own house like that it would be tapping / eavesdropping which isn't allowed either.

So in practice just briefly check with your fellow mates if it's okay and please do as you have always done as we love all these streams on social media. Who doesn't? Exactly one person in the last 3 years and he isn't even racing with us anymore because of our ridiculous real name policy.

Ridiculous rules? Maybe. In accordance with most laws? Most likely. Really a big of a deal to briefly ask? Not at all. Say hi to your racing mates in the same sentence and you even get a friendly hello back

If you still want to make a drama over this subject I suggest we re-evaluate this rule with an attorney / lawyer at your cost and then make an amendment to our rules if this lawyer 100% confirms what we have implemented is totally nonsense. Until then it is what it is.

Now lets just focus on having some fun on the tracks shall we?

 

[Bram Hengeveld]

And @natedogg1867 as the owner of this site I have chipped in 3 euros for a month of free premium for you so you can read upon some of our league and club rules and publicly take back a few things hopefully:

What gets me though, is the sheer hypocrisy and authoritarian nature this place is run.

Did they ask every single driver for explicit permission to be streamed? What about those big RDLMS streams with 50+ guys? Hell no.

Read section 8a aka the disclaimer here: http://www.racedepartment.com/threads/racing-league-regulations-2018.11826/

8A) RaceDepartment can and may expose the name of the teams and drivers, as well as their cars and liveries in live broadcasts, preview and review movies, screenshots, articles, news items and league-related posts publicly on the website, forums or social media.
​

You can't read and thus know this without being premium as it is posted in the league document section but maybe for the future you can keep some of your bold statements to yourself first instead of publicly posting them on the web and at least do some fact checking before going all out at us.

Enjoy your 30 days of free racing here and I am sure you'll find a great room with awesome and friendly drivers and staff on Teamspeak and maybe when you are lucky it will be streamed over the internets by many streamers with full permission of everybody

 

[Georg Ortner]

@Bram Hengeveld you missed my point,
so i will also spell it out one more time.

The streaming is not the issue here.

The question is, whether the RD Club rules are staying as they are, or will they be changed so drivers who choose to skip quali are going to be punished for having fun the wrong way.

 

[Bram Hengeveld]

@Bram Hengeveld you missed my point,
so i will also spell it out one more time.

The streaming is not the issue here.

The question is, whether the RD Club rules are staying as they are, or will they be changed so drivers who choose to skip quali are going to be punished for having fun the wrong way.

I have no idea @Georg Ortner but correct me if i am wrong here but aren't we trying to simulate real life racing as closely as possible? Starting always at the back for no apparent reason isn't simulated racing, no real life series does that. Of course it can happen sometimes that you have to start from the back, heck even happened to me in the last RDTCC race (see the stream with me qualifying dead last) but that was because I didn't have any laps of practice in and missed all the speed, or that you can't make the qualification because of a phonecall, sick child, a girlfriend etc etc. There are thousands of good reasons to start from the back of the field.

In my personal opinion starting at the back with P1 pace is just silly and serves no real purpose or simulation of the real thing. If the argument is that a driver otherwise will vanish into the distance it can easily be countered by waiting for the number P2 and P3 and continue to have an awesome fight from there. I am sure they won't mind that either.

It's a casual racing club, can't even recall the times I have waited for a mate to continue having a great race together with lots of overtakings.

But I have also seen people deliberately skipping qualifying in the AMS club stream recently and instead doing donuts in the pitlane obstructing other drivers who are serious trying to exit the pitlane which is 100% against our racing rules. If that happens again I may sure hope our staff will boot these drivers from the server with a message to continue their adventure on some random public server as that behavior is an absolute no go here.

As long as people behave themselves on track you won't hear anybody complaining for sure. I don't think OP or those contributing to the subject had you in mind either. As a matter of fact I am pretty sure those that don't cleanly overtake (or become verbally active on voice chat when people don't move out of their way fast enough) from such "last position situations" are very much avoiding this thread.

Like with everything: common sense.

 

[BhZ]

aren't we trying to simulate real life racing as closely as possible here?

I'd say no. In real life the entire field has similar pace and all drivers had practiced on that track. Here we get a quick guy, many people in the middle and then extremely slow and dangerous drivers at the back that don't know how to handle the situation because no one prepared them for it.
If there's no competition for P1, the fastest drivers will just bore themselves to death so the only option is to start from the back and slowly gain positions in a clean way. The funny thing is that i did this only when many people on the server challenged me (in the US server) to start from the back and slowly find my way to P1, which shows that is just a minority that is so worried of having a fast guy behind him. Now the question is: will RD follow a couple of people complaining for stupid things or will it actually remain a place where we can all race and have fun?

EDIT: regarding the "wait for p2 and p3 to catch you again so you can fight"...If you are fast enough to create a gap between you and the others, even if you wait p2 and p3, there's no real challenge, the gap will be there once again after a couple of laps. It's also not very "realistic".

 

[Bram Hengeveld]

many people in the middle and then extremely slow and dangerous drivers at the back that don't know how to handle the situation because no one prepared them for it.

Yet you are an advocate to deliberately look up those situations and confront yourself with extremely slow and dangerous drivers by deliberately starting from the back.

You know, there are beginners that practice hours for a club race and yet you still publicly call them extremely slow and dangerous. That you were born an alien doesn't mean everybody else is.

Try wearing a different set of glasses, drop the generalization and show some empathy for those with less skills than yourself.

 

[Case_]

What you don't need to do is ask every person privately or personally for an OK as that is of course just silly and a time-robbing effort.

So in practice just briefly check with your fellow mates if it's okay and please do as you have always done as we love all these streams on social media. Who doesn't? Exactly one person in the last 3 years and he isn't even racing with us anymore because of our ridiculous real name policy.

That's great to hear (really, it is, absolutely no sarcasm intended), especially the first statement. So as I understand it, you will be changing rule no. 11 to reflect this? Because unless you do, what you're saying is still in violation of said rule, as the rule specifically requires you to get explicit permission from all the drivers in the session, which means including drivers that might not even be present at the time you'd be asking this on TS.

It's not just some theoretical issue either - on more than one occasion in the past have I noticed people coming fairly late into the session asking if someone is streaming the race and then reacting with fairly obvious mixed feelings when they were told that yes, the race is streamed including TS and the person streaming did ask if its OK.

Maybe just change it to something like "getting permission from people present in the session at the time of asking" and perhaps add something along the lines of "if you don't respond to such request, it is considered giving your permission for the stream/recording"?

And does the permission have to be asked over TS before the race, or would asking for permission visibly in the race thread also be considered an option? (I think it should, because that actually gives people more time to respond, so in a way mitigates the issue of people not being present on TS at the time. Then again some people don't read the race threads at all, save for the moment they sign up.)

Also, could you possibly add a guideline/rule regarding what to do when such permission is explicitly not given? Just so everything is absolutely clear.

Thank you.

(BTW, I still maintain the opinion that asking for permission to show the names of players in a videogame is silly and there's exactly zero privacy issues involved given the complete lack of unique identification, but I'm certainly willing to go with it if it really is necessary.)

 

[Bram Hengeveld]

For the 3rd time. If nobody objects, you have permission and then it's perfectly fine to stream. If people object: you can't stream.

 

[Georg Ortner]

As long as people behave themselves on track you won't hear anybody complaining for sure.

Evidently that is not true.
Otherwise this thread wouldn't exist.

This thread popped up literally minutes after a race i took part in and started from the back. How could i not feel adressed?

And while i dont agree with your view on what defines a "Club Race" as opposed to a "League Race", what i take away from your post is, that you don't feel a rule change is needed, as long as drivers use common sense and don't misbehave.

That is all i needed to hear. Thank you.

Much ado about nothing.

 

[BhZ]

Yet you are an advocate to deliberately look up those situations and confront yourself with extremely slow and dangerous drivers by deliberately starting from the back.

Read better. As i said, i don't start from the back. The only time i did it was when some guys in the US server challenged me to.

You know, there are beginners that practice hours for a club race and yet you still publicly call them extremely slow and dangerous. That you were born an alien doesn't mean everybody else is.

Try wearing a different set of glasses, drop the generalization and show some empathy for those with less skills than yourself.

I'm not attacking them in any way, it's actually a critique to RD that in my opinion doesn't focus enough on the quality of racing and on the growth of the drivers that come here. Every time people ask for help, any kind of help, your answer his "check the driver academy"...well, 2 hours do nothing. It's needed a different approach in a totally different direction.

 

[Case_]

For the 3rd time. If nobody objects, you have permission and then it's perfectly fine to stream. If people object: you can't stream.

So as I understand it, you will be changing rule no. 11 to reflect this? Because unless you do, what you're saying is still in violation of said rule, as the rule specifically requires you to get explicit permission from all the drivers in the session, which means including drivers that might not even be present at the time you'd be asking this on TS.

 

[Bram Hengeveld]

well, 2 hours do nothing.

That's just offensive and shows absolutely zero respect at all to all the work I put in to welcome these newcomers to online racing with these almost private driver sessions.

See the general consensus in the driver academy forums if these 2 hours sessions do anything for newcomers or not. Go in and ask people if it did help them or not to become a better online simracer.

I am out of this discussion now.

 

[BhZ]

That's just offensive and shows absolutely zero respect at all to all the work I put in to welcome these newcomers to online racing with these almost private driver sessions.

See the general consensus in the driver academy forums if these 2 hours sessions do anything for newcomers or not. Go in and ask people if it did help them or not to become a better online simracer.

I am out of this discussion now.

Ok, i'm sorry, let me rephrase. They do little considering how much is needed to get a driver to a decent level. RD should implement more stuff to help the drivers. Just 2 hours with you are not enough to get them ready for the club races and the demonstration is how stressed they feel during the first races. It's like giving a driving license to a kid that has done just 2 hours driving. He won't be ready, he will be worried and he will panic eventually, probably abandoning the idea of driving.

 

[Case_]

So, judging by your "Disagree" vote, I guess the rules won't be changed. OK. That's also an answer, I guess. Again, sorry to hear that.

 

[Yetch]

The simple fact is that this discussion has been taken completely off the rails. People on both sides of the argument are cherry-picking individual lines and words, totally out of context, so that they can justify feeling put out and sticking the boot in to the opposing side. It really does make sad reading, and I for one will not be commenting on this issue any further in this particular thread.

About this ridiculous streaming "issue", stop whining. Get on TS (as per our rules) and say "anyone object if I stream this race with TS included?" It takes less than three seconds to say that line, and it'll take less than five seconds to get a response. If nobody objects, you've complied with our rule so go ahead with your stream.

I've done that four times over the last week and guess what? Not one objection. Way to make a mountain out of a bloody molehill, people.

When do you ask for the permission? I've been in the last 4 events and only heard you say you were streaming and not, does anyone object. Now if it's said before I arrive then I'm being violated as I wasn't asked, if it's said while I'm there, either too many people are talking over you or TURN YOUR MIC UP
The above statement just proves how this should be eliminated from the club rules and a disclaimer on the home page used instead. Some vindictive prick will turn all this into and nobody needs on their driving shoes, while your there also state that for marketing purposes, faster drivers may well be passing you, please wave as they go by, as you're live somewhere in someone's bedroom. Problem sorted. Next!