Dispensing with the sandbags.

[Lars Hansen]

I'm not entirely sure how to do this politely, to be honest.
Then again, I'm not racing much these days due to time-constraints, so I don't have any particular personal stake in it.
So I'm just going to state a personal opinion, and people can take it for whatever they like.

But can we please get people to stop sandbagging during qualification in the Club races?
I'm not out to start a witch-hunt, so I'm not naming any names. This is simply a general observation.
I started noticing it a few months ago, and now it's becoming just blatantly obvious.
I get that it's a way to challenge yourself against what might be a weaker field, and if you have a YT channel, I'm sure it makes for exhilarating viewing for your followers.

Unfortunately, it also means that you regard the rest of the Club racers as nothing more than cannon-fodder, which is not only f*cking annoying, it's also arrogant to the point of contempt.
Besides, you're not fooling anybody. Once you've raced against the same people 3-4 times you get a pretty good idea of their pace, which means that now you have a bunch of people in front of you who know they'll have to let you through at some point. And if some of these people are newcomers or simply less experienced, you've just increased the chances of a racing incident manifold, for no reason whatsoever.

You wouldn't do it if this was a league-race.
You wouldn't do it if there was a MP ranking-system in place.
So pretty please, with sugar on top.......

<mod-edit: removed foul language>

 

[BhZ]

So as I understand it, you will be changing rule no. 11 to reflect this? Because unless you do, what you're saying is still in violation of said rule, as the rule specifically requires you to get explicit permission from all the drivers in the session, which means including drivers that might not even be present at the time you'd be asking this on TS.

I agree with you. I don't see why they refuse to simply change the wording of this rule to make it clearer. Anyone who reads it will come up with so many questions that will simply end up not streaming RD races...

 

[Yetch]

I find both of the issues raised in this thread entirely baffling and without foundation, but that's just my opinion.

Martin said that even using Crew Chief in streams could be interpreted by some as an invasion of their privacy - there's actually a "use driver names" checkbox in the Properties screen. If this is unticked the app won't call any of the drivers by their name. No idea why anyone would want to do this but it's there nonetheless

People, the Crew Chief has spoken, nuff said!

 

[Patrick Fournier]

I have no idea @Georg Ortner but correct me if i am wrong here but aren't we trying to simulate real life racing as closely as possible? Starting always at the back for no apparent reason isn't simulated racing, no real life series does that.
[...]
In my personal opinion starting at the back with P1 pace is just silly and serves no real purpose or simulation of the real thing. If the argument is that a driver otherwise will vanish into the distance it can easily be countered by waiting for the number P2 and P3 and continue to have an awesome fight from there. I am sure they won't mind that either.

It's a casual racing club[...]

Going back to the original topic, I'll debate this point just for the sake of the original argument: I don't necessarily agree with you on this one. We are indeed trying to simulate real life racing, but this situation applies to club racing. As far as I know, most racing clubs don't have any rules preventing people from starting at the back if they want. However, I understand your logic when it is applied to a real race such as in a league... Club racing is to have fun, league racing is to be competitive.

As long as people behave themselves on track you won't hear anybody complaining for sure. I don't think OP or those contributing to the subject had you in mind either. As a matter of fact I am pretty sure those that don't cleanly overtake (or become verbally active on voice chat when people don't move out of their way fast enough) from such "last position situations" are very much avoiding this thread.

Like with everything: common sense.

I think that pretty much sums up the issue. Let people do what they want as long as they're not acting like assholes and start driving people off track in their quest for P1.

And a side note regarding the argument between @Martin Fiala and @Bram Hengeveld : Bram, just amend the rule you amended yesterday to reflect what Martin is saying. It is true that what you are saying on the forum and what you included in the rule are a bit different and can cause some confusion. A simple rewrite would clear it up, no need for further back and forth over the interpretation of what you both agree is the real meaning of the rule.

Let's just put these issues to rest already

 

[Case_]

no need for further back and forth over the interpretation of what you both agree is the real meaning of the rule

Don't worry, I'm absolutely done with this discussion. Unless Bram wants to continue it in a more productive manner, then I will of course be perfectly willing to do so, just say the word.

I've done my best to try and make an honest effort so the RD rules are as clear for everyone involved now or in the future, not just for myself (in fact my puny amateurish streams with a handful of views hardly matter here), and I hope at least some people reading this discussion will understand that and will not see me just as an annoying idiot arguing about pointless technicalities. I'm sure many will see me like that, and for that I am sorry. There have been some discussions in the past where I later regretted saying or doing something, but this is not one of them.

 

[jimortality]

So last time I raced, there were more than just @Georg Ortner in the fast class and I'm sure there were 3 or 4 always battling for the number 1 position. Where have they all gone? Anyone would think that George is the fastest racer in the world, well he isn't. I'm sure if some of the other quickies come back President Smug, Mike Davies, then this will all be forgotten and everyone can go back to having their own little battles.

 

[PicoBp]

Don't worry, I'm absolutely done with this discussion. Unless Bram wants to continue it in a more productive manner, then I will of course be perfectly willing to do so, just say the word.

I've done my best to try and make an honest effort so the RD rules are as clear for everyone involved now or in the future, not just for myself (in fact my puny amateurish streams with a handful of views hardly matter here), and I hope at least some people reading this discussion will understand that and will not see me just as an annoying idiot arguing about pointless technicalities. I'm sure many will see me like that, and for that I am sorry. There have been some discussions in the past where I later regretted saying or doing something, but this is not one of them.

Martin, Bram did explain the reason why it would stay in the rules like that, and it's the fact that it was a legal advice he got. I can fully understand that, as it's not just some personal hobby site, with nothing to loose. We might keep hope for some official streaming guidelines though, maybe in the form of a separate locked thread in the paddock club.

 

[BhZ]

So last time I raced, there were more than just @Georg Ortner in the fast class and I'm sure there were 3 or 4 always battling for the number 1 position. Where have they all gone? Anyone would think that George is the fastest racer in the world, well he isn't. I'm sure if some of the other quickies come back President Smug, Mike Davies, then this will all be forgotten and everyone can go back to having their own little battles.

Not so easy. First of all, not all the "fast drivers" have the same pace, second you can't be sure that every time one sign up, the others will follow. And again, it's a different kind of challenge anyway. And let's not forget that very few people are complaining about this. I've been on RD for 3 years and raced as premium member for 1 and i've never seen anyone complaining until now. I can also tell that the fast drivers often see things change on RD the way they don't want. Mods disappeared for a while, reverse grid (oh my god how fun are they?) have been "banned" to avoid more incidents...At some point one stops fighting and just leave RD, as many fast drivers i know have done. Simply finding an opponent is not the solution in this case.

 

[jimortality]

Not so easy. First of all, not all the "fast drivers" have the same pace, second you can't be sure that every time one sign up, the others will follow. And again, it's a different kind of challenge anyway. And let's not forget that very few people are complaining about this. I've been on RD for 3 years and raced as premium member for 1 and i've never seen anyone complaining until now. I can also tell that the fast drivers often see things change on RD the way they don't want. Mods disappeared for a while, reverse grid (oh my god how fun are they?) have been "banned" to avoid more incidents...At some point one stops fighting and just leave RD, as many fast drivers i know have done. Simply finding an opponent is not the solution in this case.

Not just sandbagging but generally being bullied off the track is one of the reasons I've stopped racing in the club races.

I just need to clarify something and that is, there were other personal reasons why I've stopped club racing and don't want you to think that I'm being a wuss blaming it on bullying tactics because it's not really bullying, more aggressive driving and I'm a big boy and can seriously cope with that ****. Just saying

 

[natedogg1867]

@RasmusP & @Bram Hengeveld thanks for the generosity and kindness for Premium. While I disagree with aspects of policy regarding how things are run, I dont doubt the sincerity and pleasantness of the individuals staff at RD or in the club events community.

Read section 8a aka the disclaimer here: http://www.racedepartment.com/threads/racing-league-regulations-2018.11826/

8A) RaceDepartment can and may expose the name of the teams and drivers, as well as their cars and liveries in live broadcasts, preview and review movies, screenshots, articles, news items and league-related posts publicly on the website, forums or social media.

This however, is exactly the point I was, less than eloquently, making.

Why is it alright to have an official rule that everyone participating in a race needs to ask permission to stream... only to exclude yourself from that rule?

Say, for example, RD is streaming an event. And a player in that event also wants to stream. So, they do as told and go to teamspeak, ask for permission, and someone denies the request. They cannot stream. Yet, you are not bound by this rule and will ignore the will of that person that does not want to be streamed. Since RD has officially exempted themselves.

I think that is quite a clear example of, "Do as I say, not as I do."

To the original point made in the first post, once again...

From the Racing Club Regulations:

• "What is the difference between Club and League racing?
  Club events are for casual racing only. It's not about the winning or losing but about having a good driving experience. This is the perfect environment for your daily races as there is no pressure involved. Fun is King."

In a club event, why does it matter where someone starts when the official point of those events is a casual environment to have fun?

If someone starts at the back, and cleanly passes others, where is the issue? I doubt anyone is intentionally wrecking and purposely punting other people off track. And if they were, that individual could easily be punished.

This specific point hasnt been answered by anyone yet. If you dont want to race, why are you joining races in the first place then? I understand the social aspect of course, but if you are feeling so much pressure that you arent having fun, in between corners or on a straight, pull off the racing line and let the fast guy through. I cant imagine that being pressured for 1-2 corners would ruin your race.

 

[Bram Hengeveld]

It just keeps amazing me that some people just don't read what it's written and keep on going.

Why is it alright to have an official rule that everyone participating in a race needs to ask permission to stream... only to exclude yourself from that rule?

We notify drivers via our sign up post that the races will be streamed live on the web and include a link to the address where this stream takes place. This is in full accordance with what our legal expert told us to do. If drivers have an issue with it they are free to not sign up and join any other event they wish that isn't streamed. Nobody is forced to be on TV, neither is anybody streamed against their will.

Again and now really for the last time. We have taken legal consults on a few things (including the paragraph above) and how things are worded (and stay worded) now is to cover us in case of privacy policy issues. The rule has now been repeatedly explained: how to read it, how to deal with it and that's it. If you want this rule to be reworded read the post back where I said that a new lawyer can be hired at your cost. If not, let it rest. I mean it it's getting annoying to deal with members that know everything better and in this case overturn the words of a lawyer. I know community members can be vocal but this is just getting ridiculous. If you can't live with this draconian rule that doesn't change a damn thing as you can still stream in 99,99999% of the cases just let me know and I'll make sure you get a full refund of your premium membership and you can do as you totally please somewhere else.

With regards to starting from the back. Please quote me where RaceDepartment said this is not allowed in our rulebooks? What is not allowed is written perfectly clear in 1+11 simple to understand rules in the club document. Give it a read please, it clears things up.

There is a difference in policy and opinion. Many, me included, don't like it when people start from the back for no apparent reason. For me this has nothing to do with simulated racing. But the moment it will not longer be allowed (like some of these people making donuts in the pitlane during qualy obstructing other drivers of good will isn't allowed) it will be included in the club document and action will be taken. I doubt it will ever happen but when it does it will be announced via a rule change and you will be notified of it.

 

[Yetch]

It just keeps amazing me that some people just don't read what it's written and keep on going.


We notify drivers via our sign up post that the races will be streamed live on the web and include a link to the address where this stream takes place. This is in full accordance with what our legal expert told us to do. If drivers have an issue with it they are free to not sign up and join any other event they wish that isn't streamed. Nobody is forced to be on TV, neither is anybody streamed against their will.

Again and now really for the last time. We have taken legal consults on a few things (including the paragraph above) and how things are worded (and stay worded) now is to cover us in case of privacy policy issues. The rule has now been repeatedly explained: how to read it, how to deal with it and that's it. If you want this rule to be reworded read the post back where I said that a new lawyer can be hired at your cost. If not, let it rest. I mean it it's getting annoying to deal with members that know everything better and in this case overturn the words of a lawyer. I know community members can be vocal but this is just getting ridiculous. If you can't live with this draconian rule that doesn't change a damn thing as you can still stream in 99,99999% of the cases just let me know and I'll make sure you get a full refund of your premium membership and you can do as you totally please somewhere else.

With regards to starting from the back. Please quote me where RaceDepartment said this is not allowed in our rulebooks? What is not allowed is written perfectly clear in 11 simple to understand rules in the club document. Give it a read sometimes, it clears things up.

There is a difference in policy and opinion. Many, me included, don't like it when people start from the back for no apparent reason. For me this has nothing to do with simulated racing. But the moment it will not longer be allowed (like some of these people making donuts in the pitlane during qualy obstructing other drivers of good will isn't allowed) it will be included in the club document and action will be taken. I doubt it will ever happen but when it does it will be announced via a rule change and you will be notified of it.

Maybe this should have been the reply to the original question, would have saved a lot of bother.

 

[Case_]

I'm sorry, I just can't imagine a legal consult who advised you to write a certain rule in a very specific way and then explain it and follow it in a completely different way that does not correspond to its wording. I just can't. Having previously worked with lawyers, amongst other things also on IT security and privacy stuff, that's just not how legal things work in my experience. The exact opposite was always true - they were very strict and exact in how you have to word every single sentence so there's (in an ideal case, at least) absolutely no possibility of anyone ever making a different interpretation of said sentence.

But fine, the wording won't change and this conflict between the wording and the actual suggested action will remain. I've accepted this already yesterday based on your statements and actions and made arrangements so that if I decide to stream or record future RD races, I will not break the rule as it is written.

Also there's absolutely no need to talk about premium membership refunds as far as I am concerned, as I still intend to use it at least to some extent (unless I'm told not to or banned), and even if I didn't, I would see absolutely no reason to ask for a refund. That would be just as silly as the rule that requires you to ask for permission to show a name of a player in a video game.

 

[whip]

lets look at this realistically, everyone is getting worked up over nothing

first off these are casual club races, if you take them too seriously then its your problem, not the guy who doesn't qualify

second, nobody is going to ask everyone in a race for permission to stream or record and quite frankly anyone streaming or recording isn't going to care anyway

so all in all nothing is going to change, if you can't cope with these (by 99% of ppl's standards) utterley and completely insignificant issues then im sure there are clubs and special groups that can provide the "safe space" and "rainbow and unicorn land" you apparently need

 

[Denis Betty]

lets look at this realistically, everyone is getting worked up over nothing

first off these are casual club races, if you take them too seriously then its your problem, not the guy who doesn't qualify

second, nobody is going to ask everyone in a race for permission to stream or record and quite frankly anyone streaming or recording isn't going to care anyway

so all in all nothing is going to change, if you can't cope with these (by 99% of ppl's standards) utterley and completely insignificant issues then im sure there are clubs and special groups that can provide the "safe space" and "rainbow and unicorn land" you apparently need

The comments of a guy who isn't a Premium Member at RD........ and therefore doesn't race here. Thanks for that @whip.
Moving on.

 

[dave kirk]

I don't see the issue, especially if these are supposed to just be fun non-serious races. The only time it is an issue is when the guy behind is so much faster and tries overtakes in places where they are not usually done, this often results in the slower car taking avoiding action or even turning in on the faster car because they don't expect someone coming up the inside at that corner

 

[RasmusP]

This thread won't have some "clear outcome".
But it did it's purpose: raising some awareness that some people feel bothered by it.
Does this mean it will be banned/stopped/whatever? No!
Will the guys who start from the back give it more thoughts when doing it and be a bit more careful? Hopefully! I guess so.

No need to discuss it further. All perspectives are said and time will show if it changes to something positive

 

[Denis Betty]

The only time it is an issue is when the guy behind is so much faster and tries overtakes in places where they are not usually done, this often results in the slower car taking avoiding action or even turning in on the faster car because they don't expect someone coming up the inside at that corner

That's it. You hit the nail on the head.
EDIT: 'd

 

[Kurupt CDN]

That's it. You hit the nail on the head.
EDIT: 'd

Not trying to offend anyone with my following comment and I understand what Dave Kirk is getting at......this part

The only time it is an issue is when the guy behind is so much faster and tries overtakes in places where they are not usually done.

If I was to follow this advice it would basically keep me to passing only on straights that are long enough to pull off the maneuver in a safe manor.
Not all tracks have long enough straights....especially on most touring car and rally x tracks.

In most cases the approaching faster driver preparing to make a pass is NOT the issue. I and I am sure many other drivers of various skill levels are confident in making clean passes 98% of the time.

The issue lies in the lack of confidence, knowledge of the racing line, awerness of others and racecraft of the slower driver.

Not all slower drivers lack this knowledge either and many here are very good when it comes to passing, tho there are a handful that are a nightmare to get around cause there swirving from side to side, no idea where the racing line is, opponents are, know where good passing zones are or how to be passed.

Maybe something RD should focus on more in their rookie driving schools?

I am still baffled by the bullying, arrogant, cant handle the pressure comments ?

Thats racing.....when your not in the lead your goal is to chase down the guy infront you, fill his mirrors and hope he gets uncomfortable and makes a mistake.

Its fun club racing not sunday joy riding.
Truely glad the high ups of RD didnt enforcer a rule to ban those from wanting to start from the back.....Thank you!

 

[Denis Betty]

With respect, hand on heart, you seem to have missed or chosen to ignore many of the comments coming from the opposite side of this discussion. Please try to put yourself in the slower driver's shoes, just for a minute, while you read this.
You say that you are aware of a variety of skill levels on track. The drivers who have further to go, in developing their skill sets, are towards the back of the grid. If a quick driver chooses to start from the back, all that's asked, is that he recognises this variety of skill sets and adjusts his driving to suit. If quick guys want to make their way through the field, they should take responsibility for doing everything in their power to achieve this without incident. They know that some of the drivers they encounter will be unpredictable, so they should make allowances. We are all on TS, so maybe quick drivers could try speaking to the guy they're passing - "I'm on yer inside Dave".
Also, some of these drivers are slower to such a degree, that the "quicks" can, really, pick their spot. There is no need to place your car in the blind spot under braking - therefore blocking the lead car's access to the apex (which actually compromises both cars exit). You guys are good enough, if you choose to take your time, to just beat the guy on exit speed.
In the end, the focus of club events is meant to be fun. Staff are asked to maintain that focus and try to play down competition. OK it's a race, so you wanna do your best, but please try to be considerate. If you are held up by a slower driver, so what - it's for fun, there's another event next week. If it's so important to get to the front quickly.... well maybe you shouldn't start so far back.
Quicker drivers have the skills and if they've chosen to start from the back, I honestly believe that they should accept the responsibilities which come along with that. Remember, everybody has paid their membership fees and everyone is there to have fun. Nobody is weaving or unaware of opponents deliberately. In no way, does a slower driver have less rights than a quick driver and in no way should a quicker driver be considered superior. Please have a bit of empathy for clubmates and take time to pass them with care.
Cheers.

 

[Case_]

Quicker drivers have the skills and if they've chosen to start from the back, I honestly believe that they should accept the responsibilities which come along with that.

And the vast majority of them do, and the few that don't would not change their behavior based on where they start from anyway. As was already said many times on both sides.

This whole discussion is just based on a "guilty until proven innocent" (with very little emphasis on the proving part). Why assume everyone who is fast is also an inconsiderate driver?