Tactile Immersion - General Discussion - Hardware & Software

[Mr Latte]

Does the tuning from the Behringer amps not suffice for you?

Not for the specialist installation, I am doing or the level of control I am seeking, besides that also does not offer spectrum analysis or FFT for the channel monitoring that I like to have.

You cant control multiple amps at once via the DSP software or at a simple touch. With this solution I can. However, I still will need to use the amps DSP on certain channels as some channels have Dual or Triple units being installed. The main rig (excluding exciters on seat) will comprise of 4 outer and 4 inner channels. So only 8 audio channels but using 18 units. This means they require their own additional crossover and suitable wattage control via the amps powering them.

For example, the seats Rear L/R "outer channels" (for directional based effects like bumps/lateral G).
Each contains 3 units: 1x BK LFE, 1x BK Concert, 1x TST 429 so each can have its own amp configured to suit that units role and best-operating frequencies. From testing, this Triple Role configuration brings not only lots of energy but much greater detailing than any single unit will offer.

The seats "inner channels" (for non-directional effects like engine/longitudinal G) will use
1x BK Concert,1x TST 429 in Dual Role.

Finding a solution to even install 10 units under a seat was a challenge, but it's possible with the specialist steel/tubing I will use in controlling the tactile path based on my own testing/research using body zones to further the immersion.

 

[Spinelli]

Wow. Sounds very complex and tons of work involved. I bet that will be amazing.
How beneficial is the Behringer DSP compared to just using a sound card's EQ? Is the DSP over a regular soundcard EQ worth it?

 

[Mr Latte]

Wow. Sounds very complex and tons of work involved. I bet that will be amazing.
How beneficial is the Behringer DSP compared to just using a sound card's EQ? Is the DSP over a regular soundcard EQ worth it?

Weve covered EQ in this thread before so wont elaborate too much. The main issue with a typical EQ via the soundcard software is that it operates the same for all channels. The purpose of using EQ via Behringer DSP is to "tune" a specific unit regards how it feels over the frequency range it is operating.

There are some rather clever software EQ available for PC which we looked at in the past, these come with a bit of a learning curve and also some users are happy with what V Banana offers. Ideally, you want the ability to have different EQ and Crossover over the various channels to accommodate the units being used.

 

[boern69]

THX for ur latest infos
I will post a pic of the progress of my 8020 frame shortly .

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i would but I already have too many tactile units (5 BKs, 4 CSs).

I'm not buying any more tactile units unless it's a Crowson or a Sonic Immersion IBEAM VT300 or the newer VT200. Every thing I read about them is awesome.

I compared the 1x ibeam vt 200 with 2x Sinustec 250 (or Reckhorn 200 ) and they do the job even better.
Beside they both cost 60€ and ibeam 300€ in europe that makes the decision easy for me.

 

[Mr Latte]

THX for ur latest infos
I will post a pic of the progress of my 8020 frame shortly .

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I compared the 1x ibeam vt 200 with 2x Sinustec 250 (or Reckhorn 200 ) and they do the job even better.
Beside they both cost 60€ and ibeam 300€ in europe that makes the decision easy for me.

Hey look forward to seeing more of your build.
I read one time as well somewhere, that the ibeam were not that great for their price. Not sure which model it was though, so never went with them.

8020 Frame
I have two possible ideas/ways to consider for my BK units installation. Mainly keeping them within the 8020 frame surround, making the frame wider. Or have them extend over the top being inline with SFX actuators and using a slimmer 8020 frame.




My own specialist design, compromising the Steel/Chrome tubing section. This for installing the tactile onto is going to be heavy and this needs strong supports. The wheel will be on a static platform but the seat/pedal sections will have some degree of additional movement in longitudinal/lateral tilt. It is one reason why my isolation is so extreme to ensure it won't have too much compression under loads from the motion and weight of the frame/seat/pedals and user.

I believe this will help accentuate the SFX motion but not to the extremes that owners of seat movers combined with SFX were experiencing.

Outer 8020 is to be silver/grey and internal sections are being considered as black. These are the next components to purchase. SFX is secondary at this time and for later, though I have been gradually buying parts for it too.

 

[anton_Chez]

With the addition of the SFX-100 this could be the greatest cockpit in sim racing if it all goes to plan.

 

[Mr Latte]

With the addition of the SFX-100 this could be the greatest cockpit in sim racing if it all goes to plan.

Well, I dont know about that Anton, lots of motion systems out there that go way beyond 4DOF or use additional motion hardware. Belt tensioners and GS5 etc. I wont know how well the SFX tactile combines with this or if I will even use it much.

The focus of the build is still primarily with tactile. I still believe I can create high energy "g based sensations" from the tactile that motion builds do not deliver. This has caused varying opinions in the past but I won't need a physical element pushing into my body to feel engrossing sensations to represent those effects.

The rig is also about enjoying "other games too".
Try to imagine playing BF5 or other action based shooters with this level of professionally incorporated and configured tactile. Early tests were interesting but its approaching low bass levels you feel in a high-end cinema. Even watching videos on YouTube of people playing were rather amazing.

 

[anton_Chez]

That's what I mean. Nothing else is going to have this level of tactile with the wealth of knowledge and experience and above all enthusiasm. You can feel a powerful speaker system / sub-woofer inside you if it's powerful enough. I believe you will be able to create a very unique sensation on the body without actually having a paddle prodded into your side. That sounds condescending to the GS5 but with your level of tactile output, I doubt anyone will have ever experienced what you're building. Of course way out of my scope and interest but I think it adds a valuable insight to an alternative sensory experience.

 

[Mr Latte]

Cheers man, It feels like I have been waiting for ages to get to the point of having the new frame built and ready to attach the tactile how I want it installed. We all go through this early excitment stage when things start coming together.

It is very unlikely this tactile configuration will be copied as the expense of all the audio gear if new would likely be approaching 10k. Few would ever consider spending anything even close to that on tactile for a cockpit. Though to be fair, I have amassed much of this as 2nd hand buys, some great bargains and over several years.

Yet I am not fooling myself, if it just can't be properly controlled or work out as well as intended then it can be downscaled. Part of the hobby in itself is discovering this and pushing beyond the norm. Much of the usage/ideas for the tactile have been tested over the last year or so but not all combined working together. So there still is some uncertainty and plenty of future testing to do regards effects displacement over the channels and tuning.

The focus will be on the seat region first but once the tactile is installed the fun will really begin regards working on the effects and discovering what the potential really is. When ready to begin with the building I will start my own thread on it.

Different it will be that's for sure.

 

[anton_Chez]

I think I might have finally killed that exciter that was showing signs earlier on. Not sure if it shuts off when over-driven or too hot, but I'll check tomorrow maybe. This is what I have:

https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-daex32u-4-ultra-32mm-exciter-20w-4-ohm--295-235

I was wondering if these ones below might be a little better. More power and maybe not as easy to hurt? Are they just a more powerful model or is there something else that wouldn't work with them? They are like a dollar more expensive than the 20W ones:

https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-daex32ep-4-thruster-32mm-exciter-40w-4-ohm--295-230

 

[Mr Latte]

Yeah I have both of them, on the seat at the moment (thruster at shoulders) and (ultra) at sides with a set of Pucs at the rear spine. I hate the connections on these and bought a soldering iron but never got around to doing properly as not sure when the build gets underway if I will need all of these.

I bought mine out of curiosity and to learn how well they operated, also knowing that lots of people had Dayton Pucs so building effects that work well on those would be good for others.

 

[anton_Chez]

Well now that you mention the connectors, which are trash, that's what happened to mine. One of the wires came detached. So it's actually fine. Feeling really good. I ended up scoring 2 of the 40W ones for 75 AUD on eBay so I've got another set coming as well.

Now, the question. What happens if I run 2 of the 20W from one channel and 2 of the 40W from the other channel of my 2 channel SMSL amp? I know that the overall gain is going to make the 20W ones run too hard, but I've already thought about that and plan to run that channel in Simhub at 50% volume, so there won't be as much power going to them while they're running. Apparently I can run them at 8 ohm and the trade-off is they get less power from the amp? Not really an issue considering they are massively over driven already if the gain is even at half.

I have space around my lower back area so I'll try to make sure I get some good feeling down there but anything higher will interfere with the harness.

 

[Mr Latte]

Okay good to see you go for a few more, I think it be better to just get a cheap amp. However, I am looking at going with one of these to try.

Its fun to mess around with having 2 or 3 pair of units on the back of the seat as we can experiment easily with placing the effects. Eg: RPM top, Lateral G sides and Speed at bottom of seat. The thing is we can easily load an entirely different configuration with a different profile. Thats something not easily done with Simvibe.

 

[anton_Chez]

Bah I forgot about Simvibe long ago. Wish I could sell the license and grab a cheap 4 channel amp with the cash

Anyway, seriously, will it hurt the pucks doing it that way? From what I've read, as long as the impedance is higher (as in, 4 ohm running at 8 ohm and NOT 2 ohm) then it's just a case of losing a little power. I could grab another amp but if I can make it work this way, I'll still keep the separated channels using Simhub, therefore still be able to direct effects to each pair of 20w and 40w units. My amps are small and they fit nicely where they are. I think running in series is the way to go, from reading. Just not sure how pucks handle 8 ohm rather than 4.

To be honest it's been AGES since I've had to worry about car audio and tech stuff like this. Not even sure if it's going to hurt the SMSL amp, which is 4 ohm. From my understanding, that's like a maximum rating, meaning if you try to run it at 2 ohm you'll cook it, but running it at 8 ohm, it's not so bad.

 

[Spinelli]

I compared the 1x ibeam vt 200 with 2x Sinustec 250 (or Reckhorn 200 ) and they do the job even better.
Beside they both cost 60€ and ibeam 300€ in europe that makes the decision easy for me.

Wow! That's very surprising. Every thing I've read about Sonic immersion (I think that's the company) IBEAMs on audio forums sound phenomenal. Every one says they're even superior to Clark Synrhesis' when it comes to speed, accuracy, detail, etc. I consistently hear that these pretty-much the best of the best when it comes to accuracy, speed, and detail. I also heard that they can go all the way up to 800 Hz but not with noise or even a pathetic buzz but very decent forces even that high. Every thing I hear about them make them sound like they would be the be-all, end-all transducer for simracing (except for very low impact power where a large Buttkicker is superior and also the IBEAM does not go below 20 Hz).
That's just what I hear on audio forums and IBEAM reviews.

Check put the following:

"Best Tactile unit out there
I have used practically every tactile unit out in the market including Clark Synthesis, Aura Bass, Buttkicker and Crowson. It [IBEAM] has the fastest transient response of all of them. I am a Pro Audio Engineer who has used these units to suplement the tactile aspect missing in In Ear Monitors. These by far are the most responsive, utterly earth-shaking capable of enormous vibratory transfer. It is not sluggish like a buttkicker, all oohmp and no detail, and it can handle more and produce more than a Clark Synthesis (Raychem polyswitch protector clicks in way too soon). It is quite expensive but sure worth it per pound force moved."

 

[Mr Latte]

@Spineili, so when someone makes comments like this....
"These by far are the most responsive, utterly earth-shaking capable of enormous vibratory transfer."

I scratch my head, then shake it and grin...
In over 12 years with tactile I cannot say I have found solid reports or user feedback that these are better. Crowson are meant to be one of the best but they are actuators and generate a lot of heat, so not ideal for telemetry based cockpit immersion thats more demanding that typical sub out used in home cinema.


Specs:
Clark Synthesis TST 429
6.9 lb-ft/watt
160w 5Hz-800Hz

I-Beam VT300
2.2 lbs/Watt
100w 20Hz-800Hz

Highly unlikely but if a company wants to send me one to review and do a comparison, with other units, I'd be all for it but I am not convinced about these performing as to the way described above (looking at the specs).

 

[boern69]

@ spinelli
thats only my opnion
but u can find several comments in Audio forum who support my impression as well.

U can always find something in www supporting both sides of the cake so nevermind
I only want to protect u spending a lot of money without testing it urself before.

How to absorb ur rig and make it lightweight could be an important factor as well
Making layers for road effects and speed + playing arround with equalizer +Hz + volume makes sense.
But in the end it woul be helpful Mr Latte for us to know where to put the most time
into because the day has only 24 hours

hers is my quick photo of the wip of the new tactile rig so far wip

the 8020 is leightweight ->mostly wood
the pedal unit can be extra absorbed
the seat unit can have several positions between GT and formula
tactile can be mounted everywhere on the seat or inside! the frame +
the seat can even be lifted tactile up and down if wanted

 

[Peter Klawitter]

have a question for transducer experts and all who about these things

- how can i get a good THUMP/ KICK from transducers, onto you pedals and seat, without having to lower “volumes” too much to lose immersion...?

i have 2x ButtKicker mini LFE’s in SimVibe Extended Mode (Seat & Pedals) + the t.amp E-400 amplifier. (speakon and XLR cables & connections, all coming out of Asus Xonar DGX PCIe card)

thank you all

 

[Spinelli]

Hmmm. Not sure I really understand. Why do you think you need to lower the volume in order to get a good thump?

 

[Peter Klawitter]

if i leave windows 100% volume for the Asus Xonar sound card, and try to “up sensitivity” and “intensity” of various sliders in SimVibe (SC4), then amp always clips/ is clipping or crazy vibrations come from buttkickers which are attached to simrig via mounts.

i am trying to learn of course, since only installed these now for 2-3 days, but am wondering how to get best “gear change” thump out of them without having to lose “strength”