Tactile Immersion - General Discussion - Hardware & Software

Hey Spinelli ...........

Great Rig that P1 I have one myself ......... with x2 BKA in the Front / X2 BKA in the Rear / with x1 BKA at the very back middle of the Rig for gear shift etc. and X1 TST239 Silver, compliment of 'Mr Latte' as it goes, underneath my seat for RPM but i do still have RPM in other areas just cause you can add to the definition where you want it .......... and it all works like a dream .
 
I am buying a Sim-Lab P1 cockpit and have a Next Level Racing Motion Platform v3.

The Buttkicker Gamer 2 is not cutting it for me. I am going to order a Buttkicker Advance and a Clark Sythesis TST209 or TST239 Silver along with a Behringer INUKE NU3000DSP / NX3000D.

The Clark Synthesis' primary focus will be engine RPM vibrations (via Simvibe) as I read these units are much better for high frequencies than Buttkicker.

What do others think of this 1x BK Advance + 1x CS TST209 (or TST239 Silver) combination?

Should I get the CS TST209 or the TST239 Silver???

I would recommend big Buttkicker unit (LFE or Concert), there is price difference compared to Advance, but very well worth it in my opinion.

I have no experience with TST209, so I can't say, TST239 is quite cool, but I wish it had little bit more power :)
 
Hey Rodders ... by the way ;-)

Hi Des,
Been taking a break from the forums, not posted in about 6 weeks.


I got some awesome bargains on BK Concerts recently via ebay and as such decided to update the tactile being used for my own custom build. These are currently £325 each in the UK for new, so huge saving, I couldn't resist.

Rig will now include 10x large Buttkickers and upgrade the Dual Role on the main 4 channels to a 3-way configuration. :geek:



I HIGHLY recommend you try "Shakeit Bass Shaker" as it is very good now for tactile and has some amazing updates coming. @Wotever is doing an amazing job but has been taking on board suggestions people in the community wanted as features and ways to further things more than other tactile software solutions.

Personally, I am VERY excited with what he has to come in a future update!!!
 
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Having one of each type would help you tackle various frequencies with better accuracy. Probably a good decision. Placement will be crucial though. I have no experience with anything Clark.
 
Hey Spinelli ...........

Great Rig that P1 I have one myself ......... with x2 BKA in the Front / X2 BKA in the Rear / with x1 BKA at the very back middle of the Rig for gear shift etc. and X1 TST239 Silver, compliment of 'Mr Latte' as it goes, underneath my seat for RPM but i do still have RPM in other areas just cause you can add to the definition where you want it .......... and it all works like a dream .
Hey Kane. Man, I'm torn between getting a full BK Concert or the BK Advance. The BKA, I heard, is faster with more fidelity due to being smaller/lighter although it obviously doesn't have the power and depth of the BKC.

I was going to mount the single BKA to the BK mount on the NLR Motion v3 since it looks to be a perfect place for it and the main one is way too big and heavy for it. The full 5 or 6 transducer setup will probably eventually come but maybe a year or so if I go down that route.

Will I be wasting the TST239's potential if it's just doing fairly strong RPM vibrations and therefore the TST209 would be better? Is the TST239 more robust and therefore more reliable for long sessions of engine vibrations?

I'm not just looking at the BK for bumps; I love all the fidelic road noise, road texture, suspension texture, vertical texture, etc. and those are lots of fast little gritty bumps and while quickly changing in frequency and magnitude many times a second (very dynamic) and I'm thinking maybe the BKA has an advantage over the big, heavy BKC in this area?
 
If its any help......

Below are some spec guidelines.
However from past usage and partial memory I would say a BK Advance is about 3x more powerful with the lowest frequencies compared to a BK Mini. The largest BK LFE and BK Concert are about 6x greater than the Mini and about again 3x greater than the BK Advance with the lowest frequencies.

This based on my own testing or experiences, note it is hard to do comparisons.
Use as a guideline only for how well different units operate with different Hz.


If considering using dual units then a TST or ADX seem good options and TST have an operating characteristic of being quite strong in the 70-80Hz but again I would say for detail they are better than typical BK units above 60Hz onwards. Might not be a great difference between a T209 vs 239 if only needing the above 50-60Hz frequencies to be good.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
BK Mini
Power Handling: 50 watts min / 250 watts max.
Piston Weight: 6 Oz / 0.17 kg

BK Advance
Piston Weight: 1 lb / 0.45 kg
Power Handling 75w min / 400W max

BK Concert:
Piston Weight: 3.75 lbs / 1.48 kg
Power Handling: 400 watts min. / 1500 watts max

BK LFE
Piston Weight: 3.75 lbs / 1.48 kg
Power Handling:400 watts min. / 1500 watts max

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

For BK Advance Comparison
75w x 3.75 (differences in piston weight) = 281.25 watts min the larger LFE / CT units would need.
Yet they have an improved or greater weight-wattage ratio

For BK Mini Comparison
1 lb piston is 16 Oz
Therefore the BK Advance has 2.66 piston weight difference.
50w x 2.66 = 133 watts.

I don't think many people run the BK Advance with only 75w as its min suggests.
Yet while it is listed as a 400w max the BK Advance packaged amp product only offers 300 watts.

These ratings should be looked upon loosely as guidelines, tactile as a source output is not quite the same as full-blown audio. Additionally sim tactile can be much more excessive with low Hz than for example movies are via a .1 lfe subwoofer channel.

Sim tactile can be very demanding on tactile units, especially when we ramp up several effects.
 
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How much less speed/fidelity/detail do you think the big BKLFE/BKC has compared to the BKA?

Short Answer:
Keep in mind that "Frequencies" themselves are (cycles per second) so 60Hz will always be 60 cycles per second regardless of the tactile unit used. I dont think anyone comparing the larger units to a BK Advance would not feel or see that the bigger units were indeed worth the extra investment. Pricing in USA is much more favourable to some regions. In some cases installation placement/weight/size may be a factor for the unit installed.


Long Answer:
The speed factor is a minor issue.
What you gain with the larger units is twofold, more exciting energy but importantly greater sensation with the very lowest frequencies. For the best tactile experiences, you want a unit that can go low as many effects can deliver unique feel/sensation that is just not possible on cheaper or typical budget models.

Different tactile products can have their own characteristics in the output range they support. This may be peaks with different frequencies or lower detailing in others. Generally I say this is what we can use EQ for, to then tailor (to some degree) a unit's performance to suit the user's installation or preference. Think of this like using EQ with different headphones.

I would say with music I personally notice a small timing factor. TST 429 (which is very good with music/vocal instrument clarity) compared to large units with pistons (Buttkickers).

What I mean with this is that the initial timing of the unit starting has a potentially minor delay (ms) compared to a unit like the TST429. Some people may not even notice.

I dont think this (timing) factor is as much of a factor when comparing the actual Buttkickers themselves. EarthQuake is another brand of (piston based) shakers but I have not tried them. A piston based unit needs a min amount of wattage to move the physical weight of the piston. A typical transducer that operates like a speaker does not. It will still operate with only a few watts.

If you ask most BK users I think they will agree that you can find a wattage sweet spot that makes the unit operate well but also avoids or limits instances of the piston bottoming. It also depends on the dB level of the source coming into the amplifier prior to the main amplification and then the operating characteristics that unit has.

BK themselves state the Concert is tuned more with a peak at 40Hz -80Hz (this suits musical instruments). The BK LFE is more tuned for even lower frequencies, yet both units are VERY capable with below 20Hz and especially below 10Hz. The BK Advance whilst still a very good performing unit starts to fall short under 20Hz in comparison.

Most common tactile operate best with @ 40-80Hz as these are midbass frequencies. Of course a unit with much more wattage can deliver them with greater emphasis too.

My own curiosity and testing proved to me to get the very best tactile response, was to use more than one unit. It was obvious in comparisons I did (for me anyway) that TST models were ideal for mid-upper frequencies as this was one of their benefits, whilst the Buttkickers with big pistons were better for low bass impact but also low bass frequency reproduction right down to under 5Hz.
 
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Do you need to go under 40 Hz, let alone 20, let alone 5?

From my testing with a Buttkicker Gamer 2, anything under 40-45 Hz didn't feel like being in a car anymore (ie. didn't feel realistic). Bumps felt more like real bumps in the 45-65 Hz area if I remember correctly (have to check Simexperience settings). Engine vibrations felt most realistic from around 50-150+ Hz (depending how high car's RPMs go). Road frequency, road noise, curbs, suspension noise, etc. felt good in the 50-80 Hz range if I remember correctly.

Yes, I really want to try the Earthquake. Most people say the big one - QB10 - is quite superior to the BK LFE / BKC while the smaller one - MQB-1 - is superior to the BKA. They also have a "mini' in the style of the cButtkicker Gamer 2 called the Shell Shoxx.
 
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Well thats because the unit cannot properly deliver the energy bandwidth the lower frequencies contain. This does not mean they are not valuable, or vital for better immersion with units that can.

I have stated this before, to highlight how much MOST tactile users are missing usable frequencies. The vast majority of units operate well in the 40-80Hz and some with nice detailing upto about 100Hz.

Sim Tactile Is Busy
Going above this it is very much tingle but can bring some detailing for certain effects but generally above 100Hz is not much benefit for some as it may get absorbed or lost in the seat materials or the user's body/brain is more focused on feeling other stronger vibrations. So much is going on with Sim tactile its not like delicate detail in musical set pieces, vocals or instruments. The TST 429 supports tactile upto 800Hz. As you go beyond 100Hz it also becomes more audible and this is a factor too. Textures in Simvibe I have noticed going into the 1000's of Hz but these can create a nasty gargled crunch sound (as noise based).

Typical Budget/Entry Units & Operating Windows
40-100Hz is the main usable working range, some it will be less. Ive seen limitations above 80Hz and even some units above 60Hz. However the point I raise here which is vital to understand is that this 40-100Hz example is only a 60Hz window to use and place very different effects within.
Users often placing multiple effects to be output on a single unit are very likely going to stick to Hz that feel good on the unit. Yet most people do not even know what that does with the audio when multiple effects or layers for the same repeated Hz does to the output and the unit to generate. They probably don't understand or take into account how frequencies or harmonics work.

I'm not saying I did understand all this fully at one time neither, but in the last 2 years I personally spent quite a bit of money on hardware and a lot of time/effort and experimenting to self-teach myself and see first hand what this or applying other settings actually does to alter the output.

Increased Operating Windows
If the user has a unit that can deliver good energy from 10Hz-100hz this is now 90Hz window. They have just increased the usable operating range for effects to utilise by 50%. That is HUGE and one of the primary reasons to consider a more professional unit.

Low Hz
To give you an example in testing with Shakeit I am using acceleration G-Force varying between 6-7Hz. I can feel a difference with every single Hz in the sensation if I try others. Keep in mind that 10Hz has 5x the bass energy/bandwidth as 50hz. People THINK they are feeling deep strong bass at 40-50Hz with their smaller Buttkicker Mini/Gamers or other transducers.

You are correct that different Hz can be used for specific sensations or effects as they suit the purpose of that effect. Really low bass can also highlight inertia like HEAVE or it can be used to give more realisim to bumps or engine idle etc.


Greater Detail & Immersion
Here is an example I have been testing with Shakeit for bumps. We will have control for different settings to determine their operation/response regards the telemetry but each are given their own unique feel/sensation to represent clear differences but also importantly that each can combine with the other.

Notice good 20Hz or more variation to enable different telemetry values to vary the felt sensations each will produce. Someone with tactile units that only have a small or limited operating window cannot achieve this.

Large Bumps 5-30Hz
Medium Bumps 40-60Hz
Small Bumps 60-80Hz


Earthquake:
I cant say I ever came across much comparisons of the Q10B to the LFE or Concert Models.
If you have any links or videos please share. By far the majority of the homecinema or gaming tactile users seem to own Buttkicker products. Earthquake also seem overpriced in comparison to the larger BK units.
 
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Thanks for the info!

With regards to the "tingle" above 100 Hz, how strong do you think a CS TST209 or TST239 Silver can make this tingle? I think this tingle is what I'm looking for, well, actually a very strong buzz.

In all the racecars I've raced (mostly different types of F2000s but some others), the vibrations throughout the rev-range were so strong that the dials would become practically unreadable at certain frequencies. Also, when a car was directly behind me, I could not make out the big number on it's nose - that's how strong the "tingle" or "buzz" was, that's how strong it vibrated the dials, the mirrors, my hands on the wheel.

I tried replicating that with my Buttkicker Mini/Gamer but it wasn't near as strong as I wanted as it was not even close to blurring any objects on my desk nor blurring my vision. One thing to point out: using Simvibe, I made the volume/magnitude increase as the frequency went higher and higher to help compensate for the drastic drop off in "output strength" the Buttkicker would run into starting from around 90 Hz. Raising the volume/magnitute though, meant my Buttkicker amp started clipping (red light) as my vehicle revs / BK frequencies reached the upper quarter or so (lets say from 110 - 135 Hz) due to the progressively increasing volume.

I did experiment with frequencies in the 135 - 200 Hz range and I could tell they would feel brilliant - very immersive and realistic - if only I could get them stronger but the Buttkicker Mini/Gamer is just too weak in those high frequency ranges (well, at least the amp is) as it was just a very light tingle/buzz and, as I mentioned above, raising the volume of the BK to counteract it's power drop-off in higher frequencies only helped a littl due to the amp clipping.

This is why I'm so eager to try a CS TST209 or TST239 Silver - to get pronounced, strong high frequencies (100 Hz +) and I was under the impression that's what CS units could do but now I'm having doubts from what you've told me.
 
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As the Hz rise you are losing bass energy, this is what you see on the chart above for the rectangles for the different frequency bands. Using high Hz constantly may cause a unit to overheat as the piston is operating with higher cycles.

The sensation you seek is possible, with a combination of effects that would operate via engine rpm, speed and acceleration g-force. I believe it would require a mixture of low-mid bass and high-frequency detail to make it more exciting and convincing. What you need to take into account is that harmonics are also naturally created.

So if an effect layer was created using 60Hz and input as the small/low value and 80Hz input as the big/large value in Simvibe. These are the "center values". Other frequencies will also be included. The secondary harmonic of these values will be generated naturally. This would be the 1st overtone of the frequencies.

In this case being 120Hz and 160Hz but also containing +/- frequencies of the center values.
Harmonics will be lower in dB to the original fundamental tones. We can increase the db for the original fundamental values to then also increase the dB of the harmonics they produce but we dont then want the fundamental tones to be too strong or overbearing in the attempt to increase others.

An alternative is EQ to boost the 80-100Hz + but really this may not do a great deal (unit dependent). Keep in mind you are trying to boost bass in a frequency that has little bass and this be generated on a transducer. What I would say you want is more supporting frequencies to give more body and depth to the sensations.

Another option would be a secondary or triple effect layer that then uses the "harmonic values" of the 1st layers fundamental frequencies.

Simvibe - Creating Harmonic Layers
You could try a speed effect that uses more than one layer but being harmonically matched.
This means the layers will have their own center values inputted that match naturally created harmonics. You then can alter the amplitude/gain of each layer to find a balance for the effects full operation.

Layer 1 = 30Hz & 40Hz (Original fundamental tones used are also known as the 1st harmonic)
Layer 2 = 60Hz & 80Hz (2nd teir harmonic)
Layer 3 = 90Hz & 120Hz (3rd teir harmonic)

  • Test each layer on its own to find suitable volume so all 3 can have a nice balance
  • Frequencies above, only examples of using a harmonic method for layers
  • The sml/big values do not necessarily need to be 20Hz apart


Alternative Option
I believe that SBS is soon going to allow much greater potential than Simvibe with the updates it has coming. Even currently it performs rather well in comparison to Simvibe and does several things not possible in Simvibe. It also is donation based software so will not set people back $89.

My advice to anyone currently using tactile is to give (Shakeit Bass Shaker) a try to compare it using Speed/RPM & also if you wanted include an acceleration G Force effect. Below are some settings I find work well. You could try these and alter slightly the Hz if you wanted to suit your BK Gamer. It really is much less frustrating to use than Simvibe and brings better control/options than SSW.

It certainly surprised and pleased me with all the updates/features it has had and continues to bring. But heck why not find out for yourself.... :)





Available via the SIMHUB software package.
Here

Simvibe, while we can get creative with effects layer creation, has a basic/outdated UI and adding layers for a specific detail or creative sensation just becomes messy with no way to organise or label the layers.

When we add layers or multiple effects that use the same Hz then this increases the dB of the frequencies. One problem is with multiple effects and then multiple layers you can create an output for the channel that everything becomes hard to distinguish specific effects sensations.

Tactile Unit Overworked
Keep in mind an engine or speed related effects are almost operating constantly is best used on a tactile unit(s) specifically for engine role. Then use other additional units for bumps etc to maintain better detailing and not overwhelm one unit.

For best engines, again a BK and TST combo is what has worked best for me. However when you combine more than one unit for a "Dual Role" operation it's better to have an amp or method to control the operating crossover of each unit to get them to work better together or the units to be focused on their individual roles (strong bass / improved detail).

Seeking Higher Performance?
Currently, the Behringer NX3000D is the amp you should consider as this not only lets you control the crossover but also apply an EQ to each unit. The BK Concert and a TST 209 or TST239 will work REALLY well for engines if you desire lots of energy and depth.

For engines, my own upcoming build will rely on:
Pedals / Front = BK Concert & TST 209
Seat / Rear = BK Concert & TST 329

One Of My Own Goals
I am a believer that we can create unique tactile profiles to bring more variation to different types of cars and SBS is going to be bringing tools that make this even more possible.

For some scenarios we can have effects use the outer 4 channels as well.
For example, if we wanted idle to operate on all channels, or if we wanted MAX RPM to operate on all channels. Scenarios like these we can do this to bring a fuller or increased drama/excitement to the immersion for specific cars.
 
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What would your thoughts be about the following comment:

Q: Are you using the Buttkicker amp, or an alternate amp?

A: The buttkickers seem to do best with the buttkicker amp. I have a BKA1000N but those aren't made anymore. I recently tried a few different sub amps and none were quite as good for the buttkickers or other shakers even. I did find an iNuke1000DSP to be ok if you EQ the ultra low frequencies up in the DSP and get a cleanbox pro to clean up the unbalanced to balanced input. The inuke was just too low input level to put out any power without the cleanbox. With the cleanbox it was quite good.

source: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-...auge-hookup-buttkicker-lfes.html#post55701714
 
What would your thoughts be about the following comment:

Q: Are you using the Buttkicker amp, or an alternate amp?

A: The buttkickers seem to do best with the buttkicker amp. I have a BKA1000N but those aren't made anymore. I recently tried a few different sub amps and none were quite as good for the buttkickers or other shakers even. I did find an iNuke1000DSP to be ok if you EQ the ultra low frequencies up in the DSP and get a cleanbox pro to clean up the unbalanced to balanced input. The inuke was just too low input level to put out any power without the cleanbox. With the cleanbox it was quite good.

source: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-...auge-hookup-buttkicker-lfes.html#post55701714

If the guy is running two LFEs off a iNuke10000DSP then yes it will be under powered. Each channel on the iNuke1000DSP is stated as 391 watts whereas the LFE requires between 400W and 1500W.

A iNuke3000DSP, or the new equivalent, would work, as each channel can run at a stated 900W approx. I have a LFE powered very nicely by one channel of a iNuke3000DSP, and could run two LFEs off the amp.
 
Simple answer:
Buy a 3000 model as suggested they are not much more expensive and even if you do not use/need its full power then the amp is running well below its max capacity.


Long answer:
I have had times where I had dual LFE operating from a DSP1000 fine but note that my tactile were installed directly to my seat. Someone with tactile installed to typical 4 corners of a rig is wasting a good portion of the energy as much of the energy can/will travel into any other connecting structure.

It also makes sense that if this is happening and a unit is further away from the intended body region to feel the tactile, then the user is going to have to crank the volume to make up for these factors.


Some elements to keep in mind as well which people get confused with regards the iNuke amps.

The front volume dials on the amp control the source input gain
The iNuke DSP amps can also have +12dB output gain applied via the software crossover section. This before even doing anything regards additional boosting frequencies via PEQ or DEQ.

You dont want excessive input gain applied (via front dials) especially if the soundcard is at 100% as this may cause clipping/distortion. So its often better to apply moderate gain here during the pre-amp stage and then also use some +dB at the main amplification stage with the output gain controls in the crossover section if needed.

* Different sources can have lower/higher output levels including soundcards.

* Some people also can find one Buttkicker is outputting more energy than another even though the amp may have identical settings for each and with the soundcard also outputting channels equally.
 
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Ohhhhh OK, so that cleanout box + the EQing up of the ultra low frequencies was only needed because he was running an underpowered amp (1000 model)? So basically, with a 3000 model those issues he talks about won't exist?

I misunderstood his comment. I thought he was saying it's a general issue with the inukes regardless of which model. So basically just ignore all that as long as we have at least a 3000 model?
 
I personally look at the EQ as a way to tune the tactile to the rig it is installed onto and the materials it may have. With the EQ its not just about always boosting bass, yes we can do that but in some cases you may want to reduce certain frequencies. However this depends on the unit installed characteristics of its output, the user's preference and if reverb or metal ringing is happening with certain materials on the user's installation. Different materials can have reverberations with different frequencies, for example my carbon fibre seat was a bit prone to high energy @ 80Hz which I can control with the iNuke PEQ.

The only drawback issue I have seen with the iNuke amps is the loud fans, but many of us have replaced these with other recommended models and you can even get an adapter cable to connect it. Search the forums here and you should find previous posts on it.

I would expect but not certain that the new models (NX3000D) have a more silent fan. They do appear to offer the same easy access (remove top lid 6x screws) With the iNuke you could change the fan in 15mins.

I can assure you that the iNuke amps do not lack quality bass output, many guys have used these amps with large 12"-18" subwoofers for years, also with DJ / professional audio usage they are made exactly for. Balanced cables/signal is generally to ensure no interference is possible which can happen with unbalanced cabling but I don't think for most people interference is a major issue and in particular, with these low frequencies we are using.

The wattage ratings that Behringer use I believe are PMPO I think you multiply these by 7.07 to get RMS ratings. Personally, I don't have to crank the amps that much with an installation of the units close to the seat or pedal sections. I also from experience think that's the best way to install tactile and use good quality isolation to help maintain the energy within the isolated sections.

Plenty of threads or discussions about this on the forums.
 
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Hi,
After reading through the thread I thought I may as well upgrade my existing tactile setup. Which only consisted of a Throne thumper from buttkicker which I bought several years ago.
I have ordered a NX3000d, a TST209, Buttkicker advance, ADX Maximus, Bittkicker gamer 2, smsl SA-98e 2x160w..To experiment with and to add to 4 simexperience Mini lfe's which again I have had for years but never got much effect out of them using 2x Pulse PLA300 amps.
I have so many questions.
With the NX3000d, is it just plug and play or will I need to be aware of any settings on the amp.
I have also ordered a P1 rig, and will be using the next level motion platform. From what I understand attaching 2 mini lfe to the P1 rig rear left and right in Chassis mode would be pointless as my chair is on a single pivot point so vibrations from both left and right just go up through the bottom of the chair, or have I got this wrong?
 

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