Tactile Immersion - General Discussion - Hardware & Software

[anton_Chez]

The LFE needs the signal to be above 35hz, preferrably 40hz to avoid the pang. Turning the entire volume/gain down to achieve acceptable performance regarding pang is pretty useless, as you mentioned. I have been able to get rid of it mostly be creating some pretty bog standard waveforms that don't go below the 35hz range. That, combined with a little volume tweaking in Windows (80% as opposed to just running the sound card at 100) has me pretty satisfied with it for now.

Patiently awaiting the Mr. Latte file suite to make it's way to us. I don't get pang but the waveforms are a little simple. I have a feeling with what he is producing I should be able to achieve what I have now, just with some nicer feedback compared to the plain rumble I get now. The decel effect is the biggest culprit of this for me, as it's the most intense. But, as I said, I at least am able to use it now. I could hardly turn the gain above 0 on the stock file without wanting to shut it off all together.

 

[Hiro Abe]

Admittedly, I never tried a filter config where I limit the low-end on the LFE. I may try that at some point but going to run with my current set up for now. I've worked with Rod and his custom waveforms and they do make a difference. That and being able to control where the waveforms are directed via 6 channel configs makes SSW incredibly flexible.

I also noticed when tracking the firing (enable log) of the waveforms, SSW - on the big bumps - is assigned a pretty high number. I don't know what these number represent other than being relative to volume. On some of the big bumps I'm seeing numbers over 100. Not sure if that means that SSW is sending an overdriven waveform to the transducer. Might ask Andrei about it but, as I mentioned, I'm going to go with what I've got set for now.

 

[Michal Burisin]

@Mr Latte Hey, so I have been working on mixing tactile with audio and it's really easy to do with Voicemeeter Banana software, it's free.

It allows to take input from 1 source (my audio soundcard) and copy it to 3 different soundcards - for my usage - A (audio soundcard), B (SimVibe Chassis), C (SimVibe Extensions).

What's even better is, that it DOESN'T interfere with tactile software so you CAN send audio tactile to soundcards which are running telemetry tactile (only tested with SimVibe so far, as I'm duplicating SSW signal to transducers via hardware). So with my current setup, I can basically mix Tactile SimVibe, Tactile SSW and Audio Tactile all together on all channels.

It has great EQ, so one can adjust even separate channels individually:

I have been playing with it couple last hours and here are my initial impressions. It's mostly for engine effects, road noise and curbs - as game audio is in normal frequencies, it picks up only these things. Even when amplified via EQ, I couldn't get more. I would need more "Frequency Shifter" than EQ.

For engine, it feels pretty good, mainly in lower RPM, as it synchronizes vibration with audio perfectly. Some road noise is good too, but it picks up some rougher terrain. It's good on public road tracks in PC2, but it didn't picked up much on circuit tracks which I tried.

What's bad, is that audio is mixed together and you just cannot pick what effects you want as opposed to Telemetry Tactile.

I have been using really "sharp" effect for shifting in telemetry tactile, but this audio tactile is "watering" that sharpness down, as it's associated with lot of audio output, which is taking longer, this is especially noticeable in H-shifter cars and it makes shifting less noticeable.

I will experiment further, I will probably copy Audio Tactile just to engine units (2xBK + 2xTST dual role) under seat and pedals. I will make shifting weaker in Telemetry Tactile in SimVibe on Extensions mode and I will make it stronger on Chassis mode, I hope it will help to get me some sharpness in shifting back.

Other downside is, that the audio road effects are quite high frequency (I can limit that with EQ, but if I limit it too much, I won't get anything), this high frequency results in noiser operation. It feels good, but I will have to consider pros and cons, so I will decide after further tests.

Great thing about this discovery for me is that I can easily watch movie, have sound in headphones and I'm able to send audio tactile to 2 soundcards (each with separate EQ), so I'm utilising all bass shakers I have even for movies!

 

[asteroulis]

@Mr Latte Hey, so I have been working on mixing tactile with audio and it's really easy to do with Voicemeeter Banana software, it's free.

It allows to take input from 1 source (my audio soundcard) and copy it to 3 different soundcards - for my usage - A (audio soundcard), B (SimVibe Chassis), C (SimVibe Extensions).

View attachment 259661

What's even better is, that it DOESN'T interfere with tactile software so you CAN send audio tactile to soundcards which are running telemetry tactile (only tested with SimVibe so far, as I'm duplicating SSW signal to transducers via hardware). So with my current setup, I can basically mix Tactile SimVibe, Tactile SSW and Audio Tactile all together on all channels.

It has great EQ, so one can adjust even separate channels individually:

View attachment 259662

I have been playing with it couple last hours and here are my initial impressions. It's mostly for engine effects, road noise and curbs - as game audio is in normal frequencies, it picks up only these things. Even when amplified via EQ, I couldn't get more. I would need more "Frequency Shifter" than EQ.

For engine, it feels pretty good, mainly in lower RPM, as it synchronizes vibration with audio perfectly. Some road noise is good too, but it picks up some rougher terrain. It's good on public road tracks in PC2, but it didn't picked up much on circuit tracks which I tried.

What's bad, is that audio is mixed together and you just cannot pick what effects you want as opposed to Telemetry Tactile.

I have been using really "sharp" effect for shifting in telemetry tactile, but this audio tactile is "watering" that sharpness down, as it's associated with lot of audio output, which is taking longer, this is especially noticeable in H-shifter cars and it makes shifting less noticeable.

I will experiment further, I will probably copy Audio Tactile just to engine units (2xBK + 2xTST dual role) under seat and pedals. I will make shifting weaker in Telemetry Tactile in SimVibe on Extensions mode and I will make it stronger on Chassis mode, I hope it will help to get me some sharpness in shifting back.

Other downside is, that the audio road effects are quite high frequency (I can limit that with EQ, but if I limit it too much, I won't get anything), this high frequency results in noiser operation. It feels good, but I will have to consider pros and cons, so I will decide after further tests.

Great thing about this discovery for me is that I can easily watch movie, have sound in headphones and I'm able to send audio tactile to 2 soundcards (each with separate EQ), so I'm utilising all bass shakers I have even for movies!

I'm also using VM banana and love it, which I had abandoned but lately found ways to reduce latency which initially was bad..
I do not suggest adding more load on your shakers, telemetry is already quite intense to drive. But i do suggest having a single transducer for audio on your back to get more feeling of your sim audio without having to pump up the volume on your earphones and stress the ear drums.
And of course you can have a different VMB profile to change output on all transducers when you want to watch a movie or run a game that doesn't output telemetry.

 

[Mr Latte]

I am taking time away from so much posting @Michal Burisin
Focusing on my own build and it finally beginning soon. More parts have been arriving.

Depleted
What can I say, other than, I spent a long time looking at ALL OPTIONS and have the monitoring hardware to help me better realise what is going on. Even with all this, I feel it's becoming pointless seeking to give advice to others on what to do/try as often its just ignored and people will do what they want to do regardless. I waffle in here at times like its a blog to some extents but really I'm kidding myself that its a benefit than more a waste of time.

Errr Errrr
Anton & Hiro above I believe are not even talking about the same BK units with their discussion.
One is referring to BK Mini lfe and the other the full-size BK LFE. As for the dreaded Piston Pang. Guys, the variants in the effect/files with less dB will help to remove that problem. I am indeed, seeking to push some seriously low and powerful Hz in some of the effects. So yes if someone only has a (single variant) an effect they are testing with, it may not be optimal for them and they should not panic about it.


Dynamic EQ
I covered in the past how PEQ via iNuke can be used to control piston pang. Yet it is not the only option available via iNuke. As we also have DEQ (Dynamic EQ). Here we can apply similar controls but now also have "threshold" to determine the rate the energy of the frequency drops. This can be useful to help maintain the energy to a point its at a dB that is not causing the BK to lose its composure. See in image below how sharp to smooth the drop is applied with the different dB levels.

Heres an example below of a test I was doing to temporarily remove piston pang on the largest BK LFE but also boost the mid-high frequencies of its usage too. An example is with effects like "wheelslip" needing finer detailing and fast response as we find the BK units are lacking to the detailing of some traditional transducers with those type of frequencies.




"Want It All?"
I had mentioned not to go rush into "mixing sources" in your own thread on several occasions. You have it seems chosen to do the opposite and went to use/purchase dual MS8000 duplicators, mixing SSW with Simvibe and now also audio via the route you deem is ideal.

You question why I opted for hardware mixers, make it appear such is complicated to use and seem confused in how/why I will use them or we go about building or consider creating if desired in some cases specific "car profiles". I will cover and backup these points with my own build why they were the options I went with.

So you have chosen your own path, in how to proceed with all this and now seemingly want to highlight to me VBannna and the possibilities it brings in controlling or mixing upto the 3 sources we have to potentially use.


Tactile Adventure
Michal, it's best to let you tare away at doing your own things and making your own discoveries if that's what you enjoy or prefer to do. I wanted people like yourself with a high level of hardware and builds, that you have, to put some time to focus solely on SSW file creation. To put faith in following the direction I seen things going from my own testing thus far and not be distracted by other things at this time. I feel if you had my latest files you would be mixing them within 5 minutes and that is not the point of them nor do I want to spend time developing them to be used in such way.

I really believe with this .wav stuff and have expressed many times the potential or extra control in determining the character the effects can have via .wav and mixing with "tuned audio" in things I spent a lot of time with initial researching.

Yet most Simvibe users ignore or dont pay much attention to this development/testing or research that is being done. They are quite content with the tactile they have or what it brings. So my focus is moving to do what I believe in and showcase this via my own build rather than continually try to convince others about things.


.Wav Testing Feedback
Feedback from testing can vary from different users, so its hard to know fully what direction to go with the file creation. The variants for the files is showing promises of working quite well but we find major differences between the sensations a BK may produce to that of a common typical transducer. Also effects, heavily using the lowest Hz will need much more than +20% frequency shifts to bring their operation to perform well with the common tactile that peak with 40Hz. Maybe I can improve the harmonics within some effects but this can then have an issue with the bigger units then being too strong with specific files (like the deceleration effect).



Clear Direction Of Comparisons
One flaw I have discovered is that people cannot relate what they feel on their hardware to what I feel on mine. Likewise, from their feedback I cant relate how their hardware compares to my own. So with creating the effects, I think I need to better understand properly and able to form the comparisons of different units operations on my own installation. Therefore doing my own tests with the individual tactile models. I have already bought 2x Dayton tactile options but it's going to take time to get other units as I really don't have spare funds just to chuck at this research to learn better exactly how the differnt units may compare with my own file creation/development.

I will continue to hunt for 2nd hand bargins over time.
Really though for my own build I do not need to do this, it's for the benefit of a community that isn't really asking for such or maybe even much interested anyways.

Future Tests / I Need To Obtain:

• BK Mini
• Reckhorn 200i
• ADX
• BK Advance

Bananas
While VB has some good potential. iNuke DSP is more powerful than VBannana for what we need. We can use it at the end of the chain to tune how the tactile units will operate, based on the installation, user preferences and help get the most of their abilities.

Software-based "EQ" can be used to help extract/boost and control the "Hz" from the "audio-tactile". It's more needed here too as we cant alter individual effects and we are dealing with much wider frequency range being used. However I have found with many cars engines their is hidden low Hz bass that can be extracted that is normally not noticed. It depends on the "audio sample" used for the cars and here we can find excellent examples made by the community.

I don't really see why we want EQ for the telemetry options or a per channel usage (at a software level) during the soundcard stage. As who is going to want or be bothered with individual EQ for upto 3 sources like you are demonstrating and these over possibly 6 or more channels, thats just crazy.



Da Best Bass
The very best EQ and plugins are available for DAW used by audio professionals.
If I wanted I could run all my channels via USB interface and be controlled within the DAW software and any professional audio plugins.

However, I don't want to overcomplicate this process more than it needs to be, even with a very advanced installation I seem to be going with. One that will have upto 12 tactile units, 4 large subwoofers and 4 speakers incorporated into a build. The goal for me personally is mainly to achieve the controls we need but with a quick and simple operation of the tactile within easy reach.

From research, I have done it appears iPad can bring some amazing apps with simple touchscreen access. If wanted its even possible to use iPad with audio interfaces as a 8 channel DAW or monitoring, recording solution removing any CPU usage away from the main gaming PC. I won't be using VBanana or PEACE EQ which come as decent options. Purely and simply because better is possible via the route I am going.



Stereo Bumps SSW
@ Hiro, please try and use the 70% and above threshold, as I advised for "Road Bumps" the monitoring shows it DOES improve the stereo separation when we restrict the effect to operate more on larger telemetry values. Lateral G should be felt operating in stereo on your rig as it is a primary stereo based effect but I guess everyone to their own in how they want to use the software/hardware they have. I do find it odd however why someone would place specific mono effects only to one of the L/R channels

 

[Michal Burisin]

I am taking time away from so much posting @Michal Burisin
Focusing on my own build and it finally beginning soon. More parts have been arriving.

Good to hear, that you are progressing with your build.

Depleted
What can I say, other than, I spent a long time looking at ALL OPTIONS and have the monitoring hardware to help me better realise what is going on. Even with all this, I feel it's becoming pointless seeking to give advice to others on what to do/try as often its just ignored and people will do what they want to do regardless. I waffle in here at times like its a blog to some extents but really I'm kidding myself that its a benefit than more a waste of time.

I understand, you spent a lot of time on this and you are putting lot of work to provide info for community and individuals, including me. I don't think it's pointless. I, for example, was thinking in the beginning going for 6 mini LFE and now see where I ended up and lot of this is YOUR accomplishment, because without your information on forums and personal guidance, I wouldn't even thought about building so much into tactile. You gave me lot of ideas and directions where to go, what to research, but you have to accept, that people will ultimately make their own decisions. You cannot expect everyone is going to build exactly same installation as you are building.

"Want It All?"
I had mentioned not to go rush into "mixing sources" in your own thread on several occasions. You have it seems chosen to do the opposite and went to use/purchase dual MS8000 duplicators, mixing SSW with Simvibe and now also audio via the route you deem is ideal.

You question why I opted for hardware mixers, make it appear such is complicated to use and seem confused in how/why I will use them or we go about building or consider creating if desired in some cases specific "car profiles". I will cover and backup these points with my own build why they were the options I went with.

So you have chosen your own path, in how to proceed with all this and now seemingly want to highlight to me VBannna and the possibilities it brings in controlling or mixing upto the 3 sources we have to potentially use.


Tactile Adventure
Michal, it's best to let you tare away at doing your own things and making your own discoveries if that's what you enjoy or prefer to do. I wanted people like yourself with a high level of hardware and builds, that you have, to put some time to focus solely on SSW file creation. To put faith in following the direction I seen things going from my own testing thus far and not be distracted by other things at this time. I feel if you had my latest files you would be mixing them within 5 minutes and that is not the point of them nor do I want to spend time developing them to be used in such way.

I really believe with this .wav stuff and have expressed many times the potential or extra control in determining the character the effects can have via .wav and mixing with "tuned audio" in things I spent a lot of time with initial researching.

Yet most Simvibe users ignore or dont pay much attention to this development/testing or research that is being done. They are quite content with the tactile they have or what it brings. So my focus is moving to do what I believe in and showcase this via my own build rather than continually try to convince others about things.

I'm not saying my route is ideal. I'm just doing my own research, with all the information / resources I have at my disposal, you cannot expect that I will pause my build to wait for your final findings and then do exactly as you do.

I'm not sure what I have done to earn such high level of distrust from you. I said I would test SSW alone and give it proper time and give you feedback, yet you have "feeling" that I'm not thelling the truth... I'm very sorry you came to this conclusion and you don't believe my word and you decided that you don't want to share your files specifically with me.

It's your every right, it's your work and it's your decision, I'm just puzzled what made you come to this conclusion. I'm not going to try to convince you otherwise, it's just not something I was expecting.

I took my road because I found SSW lacking in road effects, that's what sent me on my current path.

Today I spent again around 8 hours working with SSW. I have tried your old files for couple of effects I had, but with road effects I didn't get anywhere, the road feedback from SSW just totally sucks for me, maybe new files would solve this, or maybe I'm doing something wrong, but I just cannot get anything close to my mix in SimVibe. I have tuned SimVibe profile for PC2 in couple last weeks almost to the point that I'm beginning to be totally happy with road effects I'm getting. It feels like it picks up exactly every little bump on the road I see.

I'm on the verge of giving up on SSW for road effects, as I have spent couple days on it and all that without even minor success.

So now I'm using SimVibe for engine + road effects + gear shift and SSW for g-forces, wheelslip and custom PC2 road effects for curbs (these are also not ideal, but when they blend into SimVibe, it's passable).

SimVibe alone would work for me allright, but this mix with SSW makes it perfect.

I still see lot of possible improvements in my SSW effects, as I'm trying to do some myself, but haven't managed to do anything much better than basic sinus effects. I modified your old wheelslip I had and it works rather nice.

I'm still improving my SimVibe setup. When you have your rig in working state let me know, and I will send you what I have come up with in SimVibe, it would be interesting what you would think about road effects I have, compared to what you can get from SSW.

Bananas
While VB has some good potential. iNuke DSP is more powerful than VBannana for what we need. We can use it at the end of the chain to tune how the tactile units will operate, based on the installation, user preferences and help get the most of their abilities.

Software-based "EQ" can be used to help extract/boost and control the "Hz" from the "audio-tactile". It's more needed here too as we cant alter individual effects and we are dealing with much wider frequency range being used. However I have found with many cars engines their is hidden low Hz bass that can be extracted that is normally not noticed. It depends on the "audio sample" used for the cars and here we can find excellent examples made by the community.

I don't really see why we want EQ for the telemetry options or a per channel usage (at a software level) during the soundcard stage. As who is going to want or be bothered with individual EQ for upto 3 sources like you are demonstrating and these over possibly 6 or more channels, thats just crazy.

I have gave up on mixing audio for now, as it's overloading BK Advance + TST. Perhaps if I ever get one more amplifier, I would try to dedicate some tactile units solely to audio tactile, I see this might work, but I'm not going this way now.

You might find custom good effects for Assetto Corsa from community, but I have to get by with Project Cars 2 default files. Also I want my setup preferably to work with all cars / games without major obstacles. I don't want to rely on custom audio files for car engines.

It's great finding for me anyway, as it works for movies perfectly!

Da Best Bass
The very best EQ and plugins are available for DAW used by audio professionals.
If I wanted I could run all my channels via USB interface and be controlled within the DAW software and any professional audio plugins.

However, I don't want to overcomplicate this process more than it needs to be, even with a very advanced installation I seem to be going with. One that will have upto 12 tactile units, 4 large subwoofers and 4 speakers incorporated into a build. The goal for me personally is mainly to achieve the controls we need but with a quick and simple operation of the tactile within easy reach.

From research, I have done it appears iPad can bring some amazing apps with simple touchscreen access. If wanted its even possible to use iPad with audio interfaces as a 8 channel DAW or monitoring, recording solution removing any CPU usage away from the main gaming PC. I won't be using VBanana or PEACE EQ which come as decent options. Purely and simply because better is possible via the route I am going.

Here I drew a line for me, I don't want more specialist hardware / another layer of complexity, but I'm looking forward to your findings.

Thanks again for your help and guidance, I wouldn't make it without you.

At times, I have been questioning my investment in time and money into this, but with my latest progress, I'm always leaving the rig with big smile on my face so I guess it payed off

Good luck with your build and I'm looking forward to your updates.

 

[anton_Chez]

I agree about the road details regarding SSW, Michael. There is far less nuance with it's Road Surface effects than Simvibe. That's not to say that the overall experience is not as good. Just that it has things it does better (G effects) and things it does worse (Road Texture) than Simvibe. I will say that even though Simvibe picks up a lot of the road imperfections, the way the feeling translates to output from my Mini LFE's is not amazing. So, really, I don't miss them that much especially when combined with motion. I do find that the bigger bumps, once you achieve a file that doesn't stress my units and their inherent design flaw, translate better than Simvibe with a more punchy feeling and this has helped create a more complete tactile for me. I am happy using my hacked up files and settings within SSW for now until Rod has finished with his project. I barely use Simvibe anymore. I find the ease of use of SSW to be beneficial, no activating files for different sims. You run it, it works.

I think once users have a variety of files to choose from to suit their setups, we are going to find that SSW is a very nice piece of software. Pity it takes someone like Rodney to make it fully functional. I feel that the softwares are released in a state of 'early access' much like some of the sims we get to enjoy (see: beta test for a fee) before official launch. Whether Andre feels like putting a lot of time in, or just a little, doesn't change that fact, or rather, feeling that I get. It's totally up to them to do as much or as little as they feel is acceptable for their product to generate revenue.

On the other hand, it is nice that there is at least the capacity for us to mess around with things so that it's not a one size fits all affair. Whichever way you look at it, I am happy that I have SSW to give a different perspective on a 'mature' software package that Simvibe is.

 

[Michal Burisin]

I agree about the road details regarding SSW, Michael. There is far less nuance with it's Road Surface effects than Simvibe. That's not to say that the overall experience is not as good. Just that it has things it does better (G effects) and things it does worse (Road Texture) than Simvibe. I will say that even though Simvibe picks up a lot of the road imperfections, the way the feeling translates to output from my Mini LFE's is not amazing. So, really, I don't miss them that much especially when combined with motion. I do find that the bigger bumps, once you achieve a file that doesn't stress my units and their inherent design flaw, translate better than Simvibe with a more punchy feeling and this has helped create a more complete tactile for me. I am happy using my hacked up files and settings within SSW for now until Rod has finished with his project. I barely use Simvibe anymore. I find the ease of use of SSW to be beneficial, no activating files for different sims. You run it, it works.

Thing for me is, I'm not even able to get decent response for bigger bumps. Also I wasn't getting consistent feeling in most cars. When going in between soft suspension / hard suspension cars, I have to mess with effects strength and sensitivity.

In SimVibe I have 2 profiles so far and they have to do more with the track than car. I have medium sensitivity profile for rougher tracks (Nurgburgring, California Highway) and high sensivity profile for smoother tracks (Silverstone). Here is my latest medium profile for Project Cars 2 if you would like to try it. However it's based on chassis mode and I'm not sure how it would work for you. You would also need to push frequencies higher and change the volume of each layer, but I imagine it could work even for mini LFE.

Unfortunately Road Bumps, Vertical Surges and other effects work different that FRONT Suspension Bumps, FRONT Suspension Bump Surges etc., but I think it would be possible to use same workflow to create effects for Extensions mode effects in same manner. In my profile you can see how I shift the settings (sensitivity, frequency of small and big bump, dynamic sensitivity, volume) for each layer.

Front Suspension Bumps 1 - the biggest bumps on track - I reserve this effect for bumps when I usually mess up driving - run out of road, hit sausage curb, jumps etc. Set the effect that you don't bottom out even in worst situation.

Front Suspension Bumps 2 - medium bumps - curbs, big bumps on track - smooth response, medium gain

Front Suspension Bumps 3 & 4 - small & tiny bumps - general road texture, more gritty low gain response

Front Suspension Bump Surges 1 - more medium small to tiny bumps

Front Suspension Bump Surges 2 - lowest frequency, sensitivity to 100% - always on, it makes the big units move the rig smoothly so it never goes completely "tactile silent".

Test each effect separately and then in combination with previous layers to ensure you don't bottom out even in worst conditions and see how it blends. I'm getting zero piston pang with this approach and rich response in full frequency range I reserved for road effects (5 - 40 hz).

If more people would be interested we could make a thread for SimVibe profiles creation, but I'm not going to yet, if anyone would be interested, let me know via PM in order not to write much off-topic in Mr Lattes SSW oriented thread.

I agree, that you put 'mature' in quotes regarding SimVibe. Lot of things are broken in the software and I don't think it will get fixed anytime soon or ever. Example might be, that I'm not getting response from just rear left wheel in Rear Suspension Effects. After 3 - 4 weeks I got response that someone will look into it, but maybe it's holiday season, I will see if it gets fixed if it's just not my problem. Otherwise settings / effects in Filters tab doesn't work for me at all. Software crashes time to time when messing around control panel - it crashes occasionally when I try to export settings - that's my favorite one - the cras deletes all changes user made However when running the game, it works reliably.

Even with these flaws it's great we have option to use software like these. We also have option to mix multiple tactile software and even audio tactile to get feedback we are looking for - at the price of build and setup complexity, time and money of course. We need to purchase more programs and of course hardware to mix it. Hopefully in future we will have one software that does it all, but until then, I'm going to pick best features from best programs available at the market at that time and combine them.

I have yet to look inside GameVibe from SimTools, I already have the license, I'm looking forward to test what they got, but it has been developed rather recently, so my expectations are not very high, but let's see.

 

[Mr Latte]

Michael, like I mentioned in your own thread, its like people are not on the same page.
For instance, you also keep going to PCars 2 to use as a reference when clearly I have done most testing within AC.

Im not saying you have to stick to this Sim but It was chosen as a Sim for testing as it generally worked well in Simvibe with all its effects. I then stuck with it also for SSW as most of my testing and monitoring in Simvibe could then be used as a benchmark to what SSW was achieving.

I did not expect you to wait until files were completed. Actually, my intention was to take you through the learning process I had with Audacity and file creation to help you quickly grasp what was being done and then to see the potential I seen with it.

So for me it was unfortunate to see that your interest was to rush into things and ignoring the advice given. Come on man, even after I spent over 700 hours monitoring Simvibe effects alone. Surely based on such I should have gathered a fair idea by now what the pros/cons from an immersion perspective Simvibe are and what it can bring. I have even run real-time tests with individual effects on individual channels placed onscreen to record and analyse their operation/activity to one another to help learn which are more beneficial or just offering sensation with little importance.

For me, you ignored the advice not to rush into mixing, even after all the time spent on posts/help that was given to you in your own build. If you want to talk about trust, or respect then to me your actions of doing the opposite I said was putting little trust in what I have been saying or sharing all this time. I have clearly put forward the perspective for my own build goals which should align closely with your own and to get the best user experience with the best tactile immersion from a cockpit. You invested heavily into this but then I may as well not bother sharing that in my own testing with such high-level hardware (SSW via .wav creation & Audio) was the direction I found, as the path to go down and continue researching or developing effects for.

You are new to this, I get your excitement and enthusiasm in many ways its great to see but you are your own man and it may be best you do the things you want to do and discover things for yourself than work to the methods I recommend. I did not see from you specific interest to help me push the .wav potential and I still think you don't fully appreciate we can do much more with waveforms than a few layers combining to form the basis of an effect. An example of this is even with "gear changes". You cant tell what those combined layers you use, are doing regards Hz and here is an example I placed a long time ago.

We can build effects willy/nilly and adding layers not really knowing what the full frequency output for the effect is. In that we just go by feel alone or we can put more time and effort into having effects use specific Hz for their own character and then to see or determine what arrangement of frequencies the effect fully uses based on how harmonics operate with the fundamental tones applied.

A key with this is being able to help control or ensure that different effects can bring their own sensations. Work still needs to be done to find sensations that match the effects purpose and then also can work on various tactile models. Its not as simple as it may seem but I know the progress I have made and positive more is possible.




Simvibe
The software has been out for 6 years, so why do you assume coming new into this you can find something in settings that is remarkably better than effects or profiles other people may already have? I stated on more than one occasion, go find the very best Simvibe profiles created by people. I offered a challenge to bring them as a basis to let me compare SSW and my own file creation with.

@Darren McKenna may be able to supply you with advice to help you get the best from Simvibe as he has advanced usage of it over the years. My recommendation would be to chat with him or other pro-Simvibe users like @HoiHman who was a beta tester and start a thread here on AC for it to then go your own path if you want and share what you discover or achieve.


Simvibe Engines / Fakery
Regards engines, please keep in mind that most of what Simvibe generates is fake and nothing to do with the real car being used. This is one element I like about "audio tactile" being incorporated to help potentially bring the true cars engine character.

As you know, I experimented a lot in Simvibe, and even found ways to generate timing for engine idle, to have layers that could give a sensation for a lumpy V8 or a more consistent finer rumble to match different cars being used.

I can assure you that quite a bit could be done for car profiles in Simvibe to give a unique feel to some cars over others but not just with engine effects. I really was interested in this but the biggest drawback is Simvibe itself that makes it unfeasible.

The requirement of multi-layers and then not even able to copy/paste these between CM/EM is just dire. Therefore to do advanced profiles for cars you end up with lots of layers, no way to separate/identify/label them and every single layer must be manually inputted into the EM channels being used. Oh man, what a chore that is....

On top of all this then a user has to be able to go to all these layers, individual settings or sliders to make changes and also do this over CM/EM separately.

So this is my main reason for not continuing with Simvibe. It is not designed to bring complicated multilayers. Its goal is not, that of ours to seek to find the ultimate in tactile immersion. SSW offered new options but bringing in general simplified controls and more potential for the creation/character of the individual effect with the benefit of also adding G based effects.


PCars 2
The issue you have with a rear channel not working.
I would advise that for this Sim you could duplicate the front stereo channels and have this sim use A/B stereo for front and back. Basically replacing the rear set with a duplicated front set.

We find via monitoring effects in real time, that many of Simvibes effects show limited differences between the "front/rear" channels. Users using tactile that is only on their seat are also advised to use "Front" channels not "Rear" as these can be more active based on the steering input and activity of the cars telemetry values.

Michal, I have sent you a PM with a private link to try a couple of SSW Bump/Surface effects on your BK CE to see what energy or sensation they bring. I also included a "Gear Shift" and "Wheel Slip" effects. You can see how much you like or dislike these.

@Hiro Abe
This video highlights that if you have good stereo separation within your build "Lateral G" effect as an example should be detectable and allow the user to sense good stereo feedback.

 

[Michal Burisin]

Michael, like I mentioned in your own thread, its like people are not on the same page.
For instance, you also keep going to PCars 2 to use as a reference when clearly I have done most testing within AC.

As I said before, once I have something test against, I will go to AC for testing as you have developed the files specifically for it. I didn't see any appeal to tune just my profiles in SimVibe in AC, as I'm not going to actual play it.

Now that I have something to test against, I'm moving to AC for testing and I will try to move also my SimVibe profile to have direct comparison.

I did not expect you to wait until files were completed. Actually, my intention was to take you through the learning process I had with Audacity and file creation to help you quickly grasp what was being done and then to see the potential I seen with it.

So for me it was unfortunate to see that your interest was to rush into things and ignoring the advice given. Come on man, even after I spent over 700 hours monitoring Simvibe effects alone. Surely based on such I should have gathered a fair idea by now what the pros/cons from an immersion perspective Simvibe are and what it can bring. I have even run real-time tests with individual effects on individual channels placed onscreen to record and analyse their operation/activity to one another to help learn which are more beneficial or just offering sensation with little importance.

If you're up to it, you can hit me with basics and I will see what I can do in Audacity Looking at your effects, I don't see why they are designed as they are, but I'll try to read more on the audio theory etc.

For me, you ignored the advice not to rush into mixing, even after all the time spent on posts/help that was given to you in your own build. If you want to talk about trust, or respect then to me your actions of doing the opposite I said was putting little trust in what I have been saying or sharing all this time. I have clearly put forward the perspective for my own build goals which should align closely with your own and to get the best user experience with the best tactile immersion from a cockpit.

I really value your input and time you invested in my build, but I still need some freedom of will. We have some different views / approaches on couple of things, but the goal is the same - get most out of tactile. You have already decided that using just SSW + audio is the best way, but I see some limitations in SSW that I just cannot rely on it to provide me best tactile feedback.

Also part of fun in all this is experimenting.

I explained many times that engine effect is very important to me and SSW is clearly lacking there from my point of view. You on the other side view the engine effect not that important.

After trying your old custom effect for engine, it improved the situation from stock SSW, but the underlying issue with the effect is that it's not tied to RPM with frequency which is something, I think, you cannot get around just with the wav effects.

When I discovered this, I got help from my brother who is programmer and he wrote for me custom program, that tapped into PC2 telemetry and used it's data to generate RPM based engine effect which felt so much better what SSW had. Only after that I found out in chat with friend that SimVibe can do this all along and that's the point I decided to to shift to mixing SSW and SimVibe until I find better solution.

I'm sure you can do much with audio mixing, but I want it work now and with all games / cars to my satisfaction, which SimVibe can do right now. It's not perfect (it will be better if they ever implement chassis engine effects to extensions), but it works ok as opposed to SSW engine implementation which just RUINS TOTALLY the WHOLE experience for me. I couldn't get this effect out of my head during racing, so I had to just turn it off.

I simply wanted to be able to enjoy tactile, and mixing SSW with SimVibe is just the easiest way out of this and it's simple to do. As I didn't wanted to add more complexity to the build (ipad, mixers etc.) it was just natural way to go.

I still don't see why you have such problem with taking what can SimVibe do better than SSW (this is only my personal view) and use it to get the best of both worlds. If I find out, that SSW with your effects, possibly mixed with audio (not using another layer of some expensive hardware advanced setup before every change of car / track) can do everything better than SimVibe I will be happiest person on earth.

Until then I will use the mixing for my racing / enjoyment.

On the other side, as I stated before, I will do all my testing / trying to improve SSW in AC with whatever settings you wish to have the same conditions and I will invest proper time to this. Our goals are the same - get the best of SSW. Yes, I ignored your advice regarding mixing, but when I say something, I'm intending to keep that promise.

You invested heavily into this but then I may as well not bother sharing that in my own testing with such high-level hardware (SSW via .wav creation & Audio) was the direction I found, as the path to go down and continue researching or developing effects for.

Yes, as I stated before you don't have to share anything with me, I just found it offensive not trusting my word based on my decisions which I don't see have anything to do with trying to get the best out of SSW, but you obviously see it differently. Enough with this and more in PM if you wish to discuss it further.

You are new to this, I get your excitement and enthusiasm in many ways its great to see but you are your own man and it may be best you do the things you want to do and discover things for yourself than work to the methods I recommend.

Yes maybe I'm too enthusiastic, that's my character flaw

I did not see from you specific interest to help me push the .wav potential and I still think you don't fully appreciate we can do much more with waveforms than a few layers combining to form the basis of an effect. An example of this is even with "gear changes". You cant tell what those combined layers you use, are doing regards Hz and here is an example I placed a long time ago.

I will be gladly persuaded by my own experience with SSW effects and I'm willing to contribute in whatever way I can to help to improve them.

I understand your point with gear change.

On the other side I view bump as an example which is far more complex. In SSW you have 2 types of bumps now - regular bump and road surface. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but all the bumps are based on those same wavs with different volume if I understand it correctly.

I'm not sure that SSW with its current design can accommodate for different "type" of bumps. I mean sharp, medium sharp, soft, very soft etc. I feel, that from SimVibe I can get those types of bumps with multiple layers, I have no testing equipment, just my feeling, but I think that's enough to make some basic non-scientific observations.

More in the PM.

Simvibe
The software has been out for 6 years, so why do you assume coming new into this you can find something in settings that is remarkably better than effects or profiles other people may already have? I stated on more than one occasion, go find the very best Simvibe profiles created by people. I offered a challenge to bring them as a basis to let me compare SSW and my own file creation with.

@Darren McKenna may be able to supply you with advice to help you get the best from Simvibe as he has advanced usage of it over the years. My recommendation would be to chat with him or other pro-Simvibe users like @HoiHman who was a beta tester and start a thread here on AC for it to then go your own path if you want and share what you discover or achieve.

I don't assume I have found out something magic and new in SimVibe, I simply claim, that I have found out some combination of effects, that work satisfactorily to me, nothing else.

Someone else can come and tell me I developed utter crap but right now, I'm starting to be quite happy with the outcome I'm getting and I think that's what what counts at the end of the day. If anyone can show me how to get better results, I'll be happy to try it on my end.

Thanks for suggestions for contacts, I'll try to contact them, if they would be willing to share some tricks .

Simvibe Engines / Fakery
Regards engines, please keep in mind that most of what Simvibe generates is fake and nothing to do with the real car being used. This is one element I like about "audio tactile" being incorporated to help potentially bring the true cars engine character.

As you know, I experimented a lot in Simvibe, and even found ways to generate timing for engine idle, to have layers that could give a sensation for a lumpy V8 or a more consistent finer rumble to match different cars being used.

I can assure you that quite a bit could be done for car profiles in Simvibe to give a unique feel to some cars over others but not just with engine effects. I really was interested in this but the biggest drawback is Simvibe itself that makes it unfeasible.

The requirement of multi-layers and then not even able to copy/paste these between CM/EM is just dire. Therefore to do advanced profiles for cars you end up with lots of layers, no way to separate/identify/label them and every single layer must be manually inputted into the EM channels being used. Oh man, what a chore that is....

On top of all this then a user has to be able to go to all these layers, individual settings or sliders to make changes and also do this over CM/EM separately.

So this is my main reason for not continuing with Simvibe. It is not designed to bring complicated multilayers. Its goal is not, that of ours to seek to find the ultimate in tactile immersion. SSW offered new options but bringing in general simplified controls and more potential for the creation/character of the individual effect with the benefit of also adding G based effects.

Yes I know, but it works for me better at the moment than SSW. If you give me some guidance on mixing audio the right way, I would certainly like to try it.

What custom engine effect to get, how to set EQ, what effect to use in SSW, what car to use etc. But I'm limited to duplicating / mixing channels via simple MS8000 or Virtual Banana.

Even with audio it will still be approximation as not all you hear from engine effect is translated to resulting vibration not to say that all other sounds will be mixing into tactile from telemetry.

I agree that user interface of SimVibe is crappy. Im just dealing with couple of layers and it's already a mess. Not being able to copy layers, group them, set sensitivity volume on that group etc. makes it really bad to try to manage something more complex...

I understand your point with going with SSW, but I still see SimVibe does (at least in my opinion) some things better and to mix it is not that big of a hassle so I see it as viable option to mix it and not to end up with compromises each program has, but on the other hand get the best of both. And then mix some audio if one wishes so

After testing your latest files I can see myself shifting more effects to the SSW side, but I still need to do more testing, I'll let you know.

PCars 2

The issue you have with a rear channel not working.
I would advise that for this Sim you could duplicate the front stereo channels and have this sim use A/B stereo for front and back. Basically replacing the rear set with a duplicated front set.

We find via monitoring effects in real time, that many of Simvibes effects show limited differences between the "front/rear" channels. Users using tactile that is only on their seat are also advised to use "Front" channels not "Rear" as these can be more active based on the steering input and activity of the cars telemetry values.

Michal, I have sent you a PM with a private link to try a couple of SSW Bump/Surface effects on your BK CE to see what energy or sensation they bring. I also included a "Gear Shift" and "Wheel Slip" effects. You can see how much you like or dislike these.

Good idea to copy front to back, haven't thought of that!

Thanks for link to files, already sent you PM with initial impressions.

 

[Mr Latte]

Based on my own testing and research of both, for me Michal I can surpass what Simvibe provides compared to what SSW can achieve with custom files.

I think you should, if you want to, is do a Simvibe thread and share your own journey with what you find or do with it. I'm sure plenty of people would find it interesting and if for you its the best option then really that's okay as your own choice to make.

I don't think many in the community may want the hassle of mixing two solutions even audio. Although I think you need to be more patient before coming to any conclusions yet. Perhaps place more trust in what I am trying to do or achieve with the custom files and the approach I am sharing or at least the amount of work or effort I have spent with tactile in general.

Yes indeed SSW/SV both have differences, with how some effects may feel. I suppose we can add more variation in a waveform if we want an effect not to loop so much with the same frequencies. We also can be clever in how we use the main channels compared to the central mono channels. For instance, with some effects, we can implement different waveform sensations to operate on these mono channels. These then mix with the sensation of the main four units within the persons rig seat/pedals etc. So with a bit of creativity, such can bring more variation to the effects felt sensations by doing this but it needs more experimentation to find maybe a good working balance.

Preference may also vary, do we consider its actually better/worse to have an improved sensation bringing more to the energy or feel we want and this be more constant than how Simvibe will maybe generate an output we cant be sure as to what it's going to be. In one hand you have perhaps such variation but in the other, you have a response that can be more tailored to what is wanted.

Many in Simvibe with experience of using it will tell you "less is more" as often people prefer to have quality in effects they like than having more of just effects happening. Whats amusing with your enthusiasm is that you not only want to have several Simvibe effects but also go with multiple layers for some but then attach onto this SSW and Audio.

It will be interesting to see what Simvibe effects you want to hold onto if we work together in delving deeper into what SSW offers with its other effects and when they are all working in tandem. If many effects are used then generally the weaker ones are lost and the stronger ones are to some extents diminished in detail with so much going on. So for me, such mixing needs attention to what and how certain effects will use the typical frequency range that most units can utilise. Also I beleive clever usage of the channels is very important with the effects and really only testing combinations of how/what channel effects are used will determine what may be more ideal to the individual user or the hardware installation they have.

My advice, for audio mixing, I think its best to have it on the outer 4 channels only. It can further the stereo representation. We then can use the central units in telemetry primarily for mono based effects, in particular also keeping those that are most constant and very demanding like engine rpm and acceleration g-force to those units. This helps free the outer units to be utilised for stereo based effects. In some circumstances we may want an effect to use all units but this again can be implemented and controlled to how strong it is on the different channels.

You try altering the volume of an effect in Simvibe for instance, braking, that its got a ratio of say 80% energy for front to 30% rear and have this applied to not just the CM but also EM. With SSW we can load a pre-designed waveform to operate exactly to this ratio. It will then maintain this ratio with different slider volumes the user applies, note, thats one single volume, not the need to do both CM / EM and potentially with extra layers in these also.

Going right beside my seat I will have 3x Split MIx 4 units with mixer knobs that let me instantly adjust the gain level for Telemetry and Audio Tactile, with the ability to not only increase/decrease the gain but totally kill the audio mix or the telemetry mix on any of the 6 channels each use.

This has benefits with testing and effects creation as well as just general gain controls whilst playing. It is not going to be used for individual car profiles in how you have presumed as what is done with them is more based on a user combining specific .wav together and these having SSW slider settings the user may feel is optimal for that car.

In good time, you will see that the implementation is much easier, much faster and is dead simple. With the iPad option for audio EQ it will be possible to load a specific preset for a car. Once again dead simple, but for altering on the fly both options can be used that way too if desired or totally bypassed. I already tested having advanced EQ with Audio Tactile and loading car profiles with PEACE EQ. It worked a treat but will be even simpler and better with the tools available on iPad.

 

[Hiro Abe]

Example of how tactile can go beyond immersion.

I hadn't raced in iRacing for a bit. I was on a bit of a downward spiral with my racing in that arena. Partially due to dealing with people trying to win the race on the first lap/first turn and just not knowing how to race alongside others but also my driving was in a slump. This past weekend I went back to it and did something like 5 races and I was able to use the wheelslip effect to quite an extent. I've been focusing on my throttle control and when the wheelslip effect started to kick in, I knew I was approaching grip limits. With this effect right under the heel of my right foot, it was an almost unconscious effort to tread lightly and make subtle throttle adjustments on the fly. I firmly believe this helped me in never spinning out in all my races (except for one where I was driving mad after having to serve a 16 second slow down penalty in the pits ).

Honestly, with tactile, I get so caught up in racing that if it happens to be off I don't miss it much due to my concentration level (sometimes I have it off if the wife is in the room with me). But now with wheelslip and what I experienced this past weekend, I can't imagine without it because it actually helps my driving and, quite honestly, I can use all the help I can get!

 

[Michal Burisin]

Based on my own testing and research of both, for me Michal I can surpass what Simvibe provides compared to what SSW can achieve with custom files.

I think you should, if you want to, is do a Simvibe thread and share your own journey with what you find or do with it. I'm sure plenty of people would find it interesting and if for you its the best option then really that's okay as your own choice to make.

To start, I see our posts are quite lengthy, so no need for you to reply in length or at all if you don't have the time or you would find it too tedious. Maybe we can get more specific regarding specific effects / feedback via PM.

I believe you can do lot in SSW, I don't doubt that, in many areas SSW already surpasses SimVibe, especially with your custom files. But in the end I'm interested to see, if I can get better result with SSW + audio than SimVibe + SSW + possibly audio. It will be hard to compare, as much of this is personal preference and also our installations are still very different. You have much higher end components & dual role for each channel, advanced hardware for mixing audio etc. I don't see it as competition, but more as a joint venture with ideas from both sides to get best we can from our installations.

I will consider doing SimVibe thread, but it's not like I have that much to share, I'm still newbie and still learning, but maybe someone will be interested in it and share their own findings.

I don't think many in the community may want the hassle of mixing two solutions even audio. Although I think you need to be more patient before coming to any conclusions yet. Perhaps place more trust in what I am trying to do or achieve with the custom files and the approach I am sharing or at least the amount of work or effort I have spent with tactile in general.

I found out it's quite simple to mix two sources. Just another soundcard, some hardware to split / mix channels and bunch of cables. With my experience so far it was worth it, at least to me. Maybe I will scratch the idea in the end, but it works quite nicely so far. I'm patient with the conclusions, what I share is just my mere findings, perceptions. I think I will never say some final conslusion, for example that bumps in this software is better than the other one, as it's about personal preference, installation etc. too much and the software and also your effects are still evolving.

I place trust in your hard work and effort you invested into tactile, but for me it's worthwhile to directly test your findings against other approaches. I think this is the best way to get the best results possible than operate without any alternative ideas / solutions.

It would be nice if you had some time to compare other solutions against your own on your hardware and invested some time in this area to see direct comparison. I know you tried SimVibe and already decided to go for SSW, but it would be nice, if you came to mixing the two programs with open mind and at least tried to let's say take the big bumps from SSW and use the SimVibe for medium to small bumps and possibly road surface to see what it can do. It's up to you whether you would find time to do this, but I think it could benefit you in a way, that you could find some more inspiration in what to add to wav effects you are creating.

I'm planning to try all your approaches (with hardware limitations) you would be willing to share and do direct comparisons and then decide what feels best to me.

I'm thrilled to see as you progress with wav custom files creation and will make my best to contribute. If you have some grunt work to do (create variants from master effect etc.), let me know.

Yes indeed SSW/SV both have differences, with how some effects may feel. I suppose we can add more variation in a waveform if we want an effect not to loop so much with the same frequencies. We also can be clever in how we use the main channels compared to the central mono channels. For instance, with some effects, we can implement different waveform sensations to operate on these mono channels. These then mix with the sensation of the main four units within the persons rig seat/pedals etc. So with a bit of creativity, such can bring more variation to the effects felt sensations by doing this but it needs more experimentation to find maybe a good working balance.

Yes, regarding more variance in bumps I thought about solution you're writing. I will try to do some modifications in your files myself If you find it interesting to try it yourself, it would be great.

One thing I noticed is that quite a lot of L / R separation comes from gritty sharp bumps, curbs etc. So it would be best to have both of these in L / R files. I will try to use L / R road surface for these sharper ones.

Preference may also vary, do we consider its actually better/worse to have an improved sensation bringing more to the energy or feel we want and this be more constant than how Simvibe will maybe generate an output we cant be sure as to what it's going to be. In one hand you have perhaps such variation but in the other, you have a response that can be more tailored to what is wanted.

Yes, as all in tactile, it's personal preference so hard to make one effect that fits all people.

Many in Simvibe with experience of using it will tell you "less is more" as often people prefer to have quality in effects they like than having more of just effects happening. Whats amusing with your enthusiasm is that you not only want to have several Simvibe effects but also go with multiple layers for some but then attach onto this SSW and Audio.

I noticed that less is more, but I think my approach works quite good. BK concerts seems to handle a lot and I have effects separated via frequencies and it's distributed to various units.

As I wrote before, I scratched mixing audio at the moment, it overloaded the units. It was noticeable mostly with shifting, as that sound effect is long and deep and it destroyed the response from telemetry shifts. If I ever have one more amp and dedicated units, I think it could work, but I don't have that right now.

If you would be interested in this, I have it set up this way:

Dual Role Advance + TST239 - SimVibe

Engine + Shift

shift is very low volume, as the advance has trouble providing enough feedback for low RPM frequencies, so if I shift into this and it hits the amplitude of engine, there's not much performance reserve to have stronger shift so it might bottom out if I would go for higher volume. I would like to switch Advance for 2 more Concerts in the future.

Chassis - 4x BK Concert

SimVibe

Bumps

5 - 40 hz accommodating all type of bumps / curbs / road effects, mostly in 5 - 25 hz area, 25 - 40 hz operates quite softly (curbs etc.), so there is some space for effects to share this frequency range.

Shift

Main effect 25 hz - very sharp strong response

Impacts

SSW

I have hardware just to mix front chassis units so far.

Decceleration

35 - 40 hz quite strong, this might move partially to Advance + TST when I have the hardware.

Lateral acceleration

35 hz very soft at the front - not very important effect in front, this will be more important at the back

Wheel slip

Above 40 hz

So in my view, I can still "read" the tactile response very well and the units are not overloaded. It will improve further once I upgrade Advances to Concerts to have more headroom.

Well I'm enthusiastic to try different things, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, but if I wouldn't try, I would never know. It can be seen in my audio experiment, it didn't work for me, but I'm still interested to try the audio approach your way to see if I can make it work on my installation. I don't see it as wasted time.

It will be interesting to see what Simvibe effects you want to hold onto if we work together in delving deeper into what SSW offers with its other effects and when they are all working in tandem. If many effects are used then generally the weaker ones are lost and the stronger ones are to some extents diminished in detail with so much going on. So for me, such mixing needs attention to what and how certain effects will use the typical frequency range that most units can utilise. Also I beleive clever usage of the channels is very important with the effects and really only testing combinations of how/what channel effects are used will determine what may be more ideal to the individual user or the hardware installation they have.

Yes, this will be interesting to see, I have already some ideas what I will try to move from SimVibe to SSW , but still need to do more testing.

My advice, for audio mixing, I think its best to have it on the outer 4 channels only. It can further the stereo representation. We then can use the central units in telemetry primarily for mono based effects, in particular also keeping those that are most constant and very demanding like engine rpm and acceleration g-force to those units. This helps free the outer units to be utilised for stereo based effects. In some circumstances we may want an effect to use all units but this again can be implemented and controlled to how strong it is on the different channels.

I tried it on Chassis and it ruined my shift effect, but that's due that I have weak Advance units at front and I can't run the shift mostly there.

However, even if I solved shifting, I use road effects in such way, that there's always something going on (at least smooth movements on smooth road), so this audio overloaded even my chassis mode. It would be ideal to have dedicated units just for audio... I will try more minimalistic approach to bumps to see if audio fits there then.

You try altering the volume of an effect in Simvibe for instance, braking, that its got a ratio of say 80% energy for front to 30% rear and have this applied to not just the CM but also EM. With SSW we can load a pre-designed waveform to operate exactly to this ratio. It will then maintain this ratio with different slider volumes the user applies, note, thats one single volume, not the need to do both CM / EM and potentially with extra layers in these also.

There's no effect for braking in SimVibe so I don't have that problem But I understand your point, SimVibe sucks in UI.

Going right beside my seat I will have 3x Split MIx 4 units with mixer knobs that let me instantly adjust the gain level for Telemetry and Audio Tactile, with the ability to not only increase/decrease the gain but totally kill the audio mix or the telemetry mix on any of the 6 channels each use.

This has benefits with testing and effects creation as well as just general gain controls whilst playing. It is not going to be used for individual car profiles in how you have presumed as what is done with them is more based on a user combining specific .wav together and these having SSW slider settings the user may feel is optimal for that car.

Yes, it's convenient. I just didn't want to mess with more hardware, so that's why I went simpler way with worse control (I have to go to sounds and change it there). But with mixing so far, I didn't need to touch the balance at all, because I tune everything in effects via wav gain in different channels or overall volume for an effect.

In good time, you will see that the implementation is much easier, much faster and is dead simple. With the iPad option for audio EQ it will be possible to load a specific preset for a car. Once again dead simple, but for altering on the fly both options can be used that way too if desired or totally bypassed. I already tested having advanced EQ with Audio Tactile and loading car profiles with PEACE EQ. It worked a treat but will be even simpler and better with the tools available on iPad.

I'm looking forward to see what you have in works.

 

[Mr Latte]

Well lets see what you come up with in Simvibe and your journey of mixing sources.
It seems your the type of guy Michal that will do whatever he wants to do regardless, so really I wish you well with your own endeavors.

Yes, regarding more variance in bumps I thought about solution you're writing. I will try to do some modifications in your files myself If you find it interesting to try it yourself, it would be great.

Samples
The bump file you were sent was to demonstrate the power potential we can achieve, Im sure you will agree its quite a step up from the default SSW files. The surface file sent is fairly static, however, we can have much more detailing or grittiness added that you mentioned was absent. I have better files for this that works differently over the main channels to the central channels to heighten the sensation more as well.


Lead Or Follow?
Unfortunately, I am not keen on spending so much time on effects for that person during testing to then take advantage of my work and deem it okay to modify it, to then present to me what the effect should then feel like. The idea of the testing was generally to give feedback on files I had created and to then let me share additional files for comparisons to then discover the best options or help improve a favored file achieve more the desired sensation.

Maybe the best way to proceed here is when you have files to swap and share we can do that. As clearly if your able to modify my own files to improve them for me, then you should be capable of bringing your own ideas for the sensations for the individual effects.

Experiment For Yourself
You have been given all the dB variants and frequency shifts for "wheelslip". This should help you determine how you will find different sets work better on the TST compared to the BK and also how we find the characteristics of the various tactile units can produce rather different results with the same effect being used. This is one of the main issues I highlighted in the past with trying to share either Simvibe settings or effects created.

Building effects for our own rigs is one thing, but looking to create effects that can operate on a wide range of units is another. Your right that I dont have to share anything and really at times I don't think people are that bothered with what is being done but is as much a personal challenge or interest to see if I can come up with a solution for this.


Progress From Testing & Monitoring
It was clear to me we needed the possibility to have alternatives with different dB values but also using +/- with the frequencies used to help find a more ideal sensation. Testing has showed it works but larger variations are needed if an effect uses the very lowest frequencies. For example applying a 20% + shift of a 10Hz tone is not much increase for a unit that peforms well with only over 30Hz. So with high energy type effects using the lowest Hz requires a bit more effort and testing.

Testing, Lots Of Trial n Error
However with extensive time already put into effects understanding and creation often after having tried many things, or made multiple attempts at a solution. Every so often a small success is achieved that brings additional inspiration or new understanding to help progress things even further. Some things I have discovered along the way that we can do with .wav compared to Simvibe is bring much better control of an effect over the channels. Be this to fade an effect inwards or outwards, transfer an effect differently over certain channels, have an effect operate with different sensations between the central and main channels or place some intentional delay before or after an effect.

Sorry But No Thanks
So to help make things clear and this is not me being stubborn but based on the research and testing I have already done (over a year with Simvibe monitoring and research). No I don't think I want to go back or feel the need to have specific effects operating in Simvibe and combine these with SSW to try and have some form of Michal Mega Mix. I prefer working with .wav and the easier user interface of SSW and personally I dont want to have the tore of dealing with more software or the UI that Simvibe has when seeking to manage multiple effects on CM/EM based rigs.

Useful Tools
Do you want to keep ignoring that I can see already how the frequencies of the individual effects or combined effects are pushing the tactile rather hard with files I am using. Being able to see the frequencies takes away much of the guess work or assumption to how effects are operating. Without it I could not learn to build effects or combine them as well as perhaps we can with such tools.

While not always possible the goal is very much also about getting a good balance with the effects creation that individual effects are still felt when multiple effects are operating. You seem to give little thought or credit or have no idea regards the amount of testing and stuff that I have done already hence why I opted to go the route I have.

If you want to mix SSW & SV, you go for it buddy, my own preference is to stick to the simpleness in operation SSW offers and take advantage of what it adds, yet keep plugging away at achieving good working effect files. So far its working well and that's why I feel I don't really need or miss Simvibe. I have looked at what people have shared with Simvibe profiles on the Market Place and I cant say I found anything as good in immersion or close to what Im getting from my own files and SSW at this time.

I am not the "average user" and have high expectations with the quality of tactile I want to feel, this is one reason I have fussed so much with continued file creation. Yet Im not in a hurry as I know my own build will still take time before such can be properly enjoyed.

SSW Sliders & Research
You also need to learn that setting sliders to 100% will not always bring the best sensation as in SSW we have to learn what the "Gain" slider is doing with the various effects. For example the bump file you were sent. Try it with only 5% gain to feel how strong it still is. So the gain is not just increasing the amplitude of the wav as you may expect. We get much more energy by changing the amplitude of the .wav file itself than taking an effect with say 3dB less but having it at 100% compared to the file with 3dB more at say 5%. slider value. So in this case we have to question if for bumps, perhaps the gain is altering the strength between the low/high telemetry values not specificaly just increasing the .wav.

Andre had stated that 50% gain was optimal but for some effects I see it can improve the operation range of the effect if set a bit higher. Again much of this is testing and doing research. Having too high a gain value and you can also cause clipping of the data.


Moving Forward
As mentioned before audio-tactile has some unique benefits so that is the only reason I personally want to incorporate it with telemetry generated tactile. I have done the initial ground work and testing so I know what it brings and why I want to implement it.

This even at the additional cost the mixers and ipad have, yet in my view and own preference with the testing I have done I feel its necessary to achieve something special in tactile and for my own build goals as the rig itself is being built specifically to enhance tactile immersion.

More progress with SSW files is always possible, I will continue my efforts for my own build and seek to purchase some of the other tactile models. Then I can do my own comparisons to give me clearer understanding of 1-1 units in tests. Andre may bring improvements in time as well to SSW as development for the software still appears to be active.

I just dont see you working with me in tandem as you clearly have a different perception of things and how to go about things but no hard feelings or harm is done. I am best just plugging away at things on my own. As such my time would also be best concentrated on my build than further debates with you or others over tactile or other things.

 

[Michal Burisin]

Samples
The bump file you were sent was to demonstrate the power potential we can achieve, Im sure you will agree its quite a step up from the default SSW files. The surface file sent is fairly static, however, we can have much more detailing or grittiness added that you mentioned was absent. I have better files for this that works differently over the main channels to the central channels to heighten the sensation more as well.

Yes, I already told you it feels great and is major step up from SSW default files.

Lead Or Follow?
Unfortunately, I am not keen on spending so much time on effects for that person during testing to then take advantage of my work and deem it okay to modify it, to then present to me what the effect should then feel like.

I guess there is yet another misunderstandment, I'm not a native english as you can clearly see, but I tried to write my response very carefully as you have misunderstood me in very bad way before. I don't really see what you are writing above in my response in previous post.

I never would imagine, that I would give you my personal feedback on effect and you would start working on that effect and tailor it directly to my perceptions in whatever way I think it would be better.

As you stated before it should have been cooperation, during which I would learn how to create and modify files. What I was writing was, that I will try to start learning more about SSW effects and Audacity effects modification through experimenting with your baseline files. And then possibly get feedback from you on what I'm trying to do IF you had interest to give me that feedback, nothing more.

The idea of the testing was generally to give feedback on files I had created and to then let me share additional files for comparisons to then discover the best options or help improve a favored file achieve more the desired sensation.

Maybe the best way to proceed here is when you have files to swap and share we can do that. As clearly if your able to modify my own files to improve them for me, then you should be capable of bringing your own ideas for the sensations for the individual effects.

If your files were not to be modified and only reported back to you, you should have clearly told me so.

I know I cannot do better effects than you do, but I think I can try to learn something from working with them. But if it's not something you want to be done with your files, I understand. More in the PM.

Experiment For Yourself
You have been given all the dB variants and frequency shifts for "wheelslip". This should help you determine how you will find different sets work better on the TST compared to the BK and also how we find the characteristics of the various tactile units can produce rather different results with the same effect being used. This is one of the main issues I highlighted in the past with trying to share either Simvibe settings or effects created.

Building effects for our own rigs is one thing, but looking to create effects that can operate on a wide range of units is another. Your right that I dont have to share anything and really at times I don't think people are that bothered with what is being done but is as much a personal challenge or interest to see if I can come up with a solution for this.

I know how much work is it to suit the effects to various units, let alone their attachments and personal preference. That's why I suggested I'll try to modify files myself to see if I can tailor them more specifically to what I perceive works best on my rig and I wouldn't ever imagine that I would try to make you tailor your effects to my specific needs.

Useful Tools
Do you want to keep ignoring that I can see already how the frequencies of the individual effects or combined effects are pushing the tactile rather hard with files I am using. Being able to see the frequencies takes away much of the guess work or assumption to how effects are operating. Without it I could not learn to build effects or combine them as well as perhaps we can with such tools.

While not always possible the goal is very much also about getting a good balance with the effects creation that individual effects are still felt when multiple effects are operating. You seem to give little thought or credit or have no idea regards the amount of testing and stuff that I have done already hence why I opted to go the route I have.

If you want to mix SSW & SV, you go for it buddy, my own preference is to stick to the simpleness in operation SSW offers and take advantage of what it adds, yet keep plugging away at achieving good working effect files. So far its working well and that's why I feel I don't really need or miss Simvibe. I have looked at what people have shared with Simvibe profiles on the Market Place and I cant say I found anything as good in immersion or close to what Im getting from my own files and SSW at this time.

I am not the "average user" and have high expectations with the quality of tactile I want to feel, this is one reason I have fussed so much with continued file creation. Yet Im not in a hurry as I know my own build will still take time before such can be properly enjoyed.

I don't doubt your investment in tactile. I just work with what's available to me right now. I'm still around 80 % time spent on settings / building etc. and 20 % racing. So I'm also investing quite a lot of time in this, but when I race, I want to have best feeling I can achieve, and that is momentarily with SimVibe + SSW mix.

If I didn't need SimVibe for my perceived best tactile I could get, believe me, I would go for it.

I just dont see you working with me in tandem as you clearly have a different perception of things and how to go about things but no hard feelings or harm is done. I am best just plugging away at things on my own. As such my time would also be best concentrated on my build than further debates with you or others over tactile or other things.

It seems you would find me worthwhile to work together with only, if I had stopped using mixing SimVibe + SSW completely. It's not something I find reasonable. I want to enjoy my 20 % of time racing the best I can with the resources I have at the moment.

You say you can achieve better feeling with SSW alone with your files, yet I can't, as even if we possible worked together, it could take days?, weeks?, months? to achieve something better than what I can get right now? I don't know. Between then and now, I want to race sometimes and enjoy it as much as possible, I hope you can understand this.

Anyway I think I have been open about cooperation as possible in my point of view and I still am. You have on other hand have major problem with me wanting to validate your solutions against some else, whatever they might be and I just don't find it rational.

It's your decision if you want to share anything / work with me and you don't have to have reason, but I just don't understand it, that's all.

No hard feelings from me either, I just didn't see it go this way.

I really cannot stress ENOUGH how GRATEFUL I am about all your input even when we go different directions in the end (more like same directions, but each of us on our own in my perception). I will still try to get the best from SSW and I will spend a lot of time in SSW and effects creation as I have seen what you can do with wav effects, but I have serious doubts I will get anywhere on my own, but I will still try

Little more in the PM and I hope we can close this, so we can focus further on improving our tactile whatever way we might choose

 

[Hiro Abe]

One thing I want to bring up that may be partly fueling some of this... um... agita. Rod, keep in mind that Michal seems to primarily drive in PC2. It is my experience that feedback from the various sims can be pretty different. You work solely in AC. I can tell you from experience that AC and PC2 definitely feel different and I've implemented rather different configs between the two within SSW. It could very well be that some of what SV offers just plain works better with PC2.

Just a thought.

 

[Mr Latte]

MIchal, apologies if things are being misunderstood here or from PM.
I am frustrated with other things going on and will respond in PM to you.

Quite simply, if you dont have trust in what I have shared is the best direction to go, then how can you be committed to supporting me in such. I was wanting to find someone that didnt doubt what I have shared regards this journey/process I am on, or showed the same level of passion with tactile.

I find it a bit disrespecting that you want to help with the files to obtain them but then feel you can use edit/them how you please for your own build's direction and apply them to a theory you have not even properly tested yet or it seems thus far found totally convincing.

Your primary interest does not appear to be sharing to help bring potentially better overall immersion than Simvibe offers to the general community via SSW and custom .wav but it seems more about self-gain for your own personal rig.

From my perspective, I can gain some useful feedback and direction but why should I give to someone more than hundreds of hours work, towards files I have developed. Sharing these with you including the latest ones, which are unreleased (most effects working really well or showing excellent potential). Giving them to someone who actually so far, wants to debate, challenge or discredit my own already shared research/experience or opinions based on untested theories, assumptions they have or the limited experience thus far they have achieved being so new into it all.

Im sorry if it seems I have trust issues, but to get to the point I am at with SSW effects or research in the file creation has taken over 12 months. Nobody else seems to be developing files to the same level or doing such to release them for the community. I keep postponing releasing them as I really want to try and achieve a way to bring a solution that works on the most common and popular tactile and not just make some effects that work well on my rig and just share them as I have done in the past with some people.

 

[Michal Burisin]

MIchal, apologies if things are being misunderstood here or from PM.
I am frustrated with other things going on and will respond in PM to you.

Quite simply, if you dont have trust in what I have shared is the best direction to go, then how can you be committed to supporting me in such. I was wanting to find someone that didnt doubt what I have shared regards this journey/process I am on, or showed the same level of passion with tactile.

Apologies too, as I think much of this is based on misunderstanding.

I think you are on great path with custom files creation, I just don't have 100 % faith that SSW is able to do everything perfectly (it might, I don't know). With your custom effects, it's in good direction, however I see some software limitiations, for example, I think engine effect in SSW POSSIBLY COULD be better handled differently.

Same as you, I want to get most of the SSW, but where I would find it lacking, I see not single reason why not to use something else, that can do it better in my personal view.

find it a bit disrespecting that you want to help with the files to obtain them but then feel you can use edit/them how you please for your own build's direction and apply them to a theory you have not even properly tested yet or it seems thus far found totally convincing.

Your primary interest does not appear to be sharing to help bring potentially better overall immersion than Simvibe offers to the general community via SSW and custom .wav but it seems more about self-gain for your own personal rig.

I'm sorry you have this feeling, that I do it for personal gain. If you had told me, you didn't want your files modified, I would have never suggested I would do so. I thought that getting more people involved was your goal, at least that I understood from your various posts over last couple of months, where you were dismayed, that almost no one is interested in wav creation / modification. You also suggested I should learn wav creation and modification. I'm sorry that I took this information and assumed, that you were ok with your files modification, through which people might learn how to do it and get involved themselves. When you share your files with someone, I think you should make everything absolutely clear when you care about it so much.

I still haven't modified your effects and now I have deleted all your files, you have shared with me, and went back to my old crappy ones

Anyway I offered to give you feedback, help with manual creation of effects from master effects which is boring and time consuming and offered you any other help you could think of. Yet you haven't asked me anything to help you with.

Instead you came to conclusion I do it all for personal gain, I'm not sure what gave you that impression.

From my perspective, I can gain some useful feedback and direction but why should I give to someone more than hundreds of hours work, towards files I have developed. Sharing these with you including the latest ones, which are unreleased (most effects working really well or showing excellent potential). Giving them to someone who actually so far, wants to debate, challenge or discredit my own already shared research/experience or opinions based on untested theories, assumptions they have or the limited experience thus far they have achieved being so new into it all.

What you describe as discrediting, I see just as debate - of course with proper arguments, that is necessary in order to get best results.

I don't think I have written anything that is discrediting your work, if you think I have, I'm sorry, but that's another misunderstanding. In my opinion, when I was comparing SSW vs SimVibe + SSW I was using reasonable arguments (from my point of view), if you took it as personal attack, I'm sorry.

Tactile is a lot about personal preference. I still don't find any of your arguments against mixing sources reasonable, when I find some effect in SSW lacking, why shouldn't I use something that I personally find better?

I agree I don't have much experience, but I think I'm quite quick learner with great deal of enthusiasm

Im sorry if it seems I have trust issues, but to get to the point I am at with SSW effects or research in the file creation has taken over 12 months. Nobody else seems to be developing files to the same level or doing such to release them for the community. I keep postponing releasing them as I really want to try and achieve a way to bring a solution that works on the most common and popular tactile and not just make some effects that work well on my rig and just share them as I have done in the past with some people.

It seems you are too heavily invested into this and have trust issues about it - just my opinion. I have offered help, yet you don't want it. You single yourself out in your quest for perfect wav files for SSW.

I think it will be best if we skip discussing SSW related topics between each other, as it seems it is pointless. But I think we can continue discussions in other topics without all this drama

 

[asteroulis]

Anyone else tired here or is it just me?

 

[Mr Latte]

Anyone else tired here or is it just me?

Yes very.....

Heres my enthusiasm level and interest, in attempting to bring much greater effects immersion as a working alternative solution to Simvibe for others.


While I know, what I am achieving for my own rig is quite immense and crazy but very creative regards what it will do in tactile immersion.

Really whats the point trying to convince others with what I am doing regards the whole file creation stuff. I just spent £120 importing some basic tactile hardware to do further testing, stuff, that I don't necessarily need, just to help gain more understanding that I can apply to the file creation for the more common hardware that many users own.

Also in the box is an affordable Transducer/Exciter hybrid unit, I have not seen used before but looking at its specs, it could be great for enhancing mid-high engine rpm sensations.

As I stated to Michal in PM, we share different views but at least mine are based on much more actual testing and experience. Yes, often I take things too personal as the passion for this is high. I have a box full of clamps and parts for my own build that (finally) arrived this morning. Its taken me ages to get the money gathered up for (they are not cheap but unique for my build) and I can't even bring myself to even open it. With all this crap and me turning into a diva over such matters, as it appears I get on better with shadows, so maybe its time to go back into the Batcave and do my own things focused for my own build. Not on other peoples builds or what they should consider doing.

Note, please no more PMs from people requesting info, help or suggestions. This often can take up quite a bit of my time. I am sick to death helping people and then getting little respect, thanks back or just some nice support would be nice at times, with the things I want to share, experiment with others or potentially try to achieve.

So much for wanting to make a difference and have others enjoy tactile more.
I need to stay out of tactile threads and focus on my own thing only.

Drama over, move on ....