Tactile Immersion - General Discussion - Hardware & Software

Aurasound can shake the whole rig? :D
This setup is great for isolating rig from the floor to lower noise and perhaps make you feel like sitting on a water mattress, but as far as actual tactile response, not so sure, like 99.999% not sure.
What bothers me about what looks like a pretty weak product is that it will give tactile effects a bad name for many who try it and create very poor expectations.
 
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give tactile effects a bad name
I will admit to being curious about how bad (or good) it really is.
Bolted to a substantial rigid chassis, appreciable separation seems unlikely.
Since I neither have nor imagine acquiring a chassis,
much less extruded, I hope that someone with tactile experience
decides to entertain the rest of us by splurging the cash.
Being cantilevered beyond underdamped springs,
I guess shakers' intensities near resonance may be OK,
but suppose the whole thing would feel jiggly/floaty.
 
There are a couple things that surprise me about it and make me think that someone just tried throwing something together, thought it felt better than their previous setup and marketed it as the way to go.

Here is what it has going for it - its relatively easy to add to your rig. and adds some tactile if you have none.

I would never go back to chassis mounted. It's certainly more work to add these more directly to your seat etc.

For crying out loud, why are they mounted directly on top of the springs with some of the energy going directly in to the springs before they go in to the rig? if there was benefit to this and I was to do it then the tactile would not be mounted directly on the springs.
 
some of the energy going directly in to the springs
Springs only temporarily store energy absorbing very little; compared to spring rate of extruded chassis, they practically do not exist from a tactile energy perspective, except where their spring rate resonates with chassis mass.
 
  • Deleted member 197115

I am afraid SimXperience, that to my knowledge pioneered the whole tactile, with their examples of chassis mounted 4 corners transducers sent many folks (myself included) the wrong direction.
This spring loaded rig is attempt to band aid what was conceptually wrong in the first place.
Cannot think of the right idiom to describe thing that's impossible to improve no matter how hard you try. :)
 
I am afraid SimXperience, that to my knowledge pioneered the whole tactile, with their examples of chassis mounted 4 corners transducers sent many folks (myself included) the wrong direction.
This spring loaded rig is attempt to band aid what was conceptually wrong in the first place.
Cannot think of the right idiom to describe thing that's impossible to improve no matter how hard you try. :)
I think they intended it as a supplement for the direct-to-the-point technologies (motion and gforce). For that it is probably fine. More than fine. But alone, even if you can make the tactile better by spending thousands and getting really deep, just isn’t the ideal way to go.

Again, it’s a terrific supplement.
 
  • Deleted member 1449502

Here is something new (to me): Slip-Angle's $500 dedicated 4-corner tactile system for extruded rigs perched on undamped coil springs:View attachment 589890
I've had mine floating like this for awhile, best upgrade I ever made. I had to calculate the weight of everything on my rig (including me in it) which was 230kg

 

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  • Deleted member 197115

It is definitely a great way to isolate rig from transmitting vibration to the floor, but what about tactile quality, whatever you bolt to the rig should be powerful enough to move these 230kg and that's a lot comparing to just getting something under the seat or pedals.
What was your experience?
 
You have embarked on the motion journey,
with which this is manifestly incompatible.
Even with my seat mover, having the entire rig moving so easily would be an issue. The entire rig would tilt in the opposite direction to the seat motion and then the springs would rebound. This would be much worse side to side where the springs are closer together. The seat would tilt right and the chassis would tilt left and then the springs would unload. The oscillations would be confusing and distracting making the motion feel disjoined.

So it seems pretty obvious this solution would make a mess of any motion system.

However, if you read the comments below the video, some people are hoping that this would be like an affordable motion system and when people see something inexpensive enough and start equivocating how it will feel, they will buy because it is something they can afford.

For a static rig I'm sure it would allow the chassis to vibrate better than resting on the floor and since many people have bolted transducers to their rigs and hoped for the best, this would be an improvement for them.

Looking at this from a different vantage point, the chassis moves freely and transducer mounting becomes much less complicated and more compatible with a wider variety of chassis configurations.

dMass has more powerful transducers than those coming with this product and for a non-motion rig, this arrangement would be an improvement over some solutions.
 
OK, now I'm going to switch gears. Let's take Mr. Latte's post above.

Part of what he mentioned is an inexpensive solution using 6 exciters on the seat which puts the vibrations directly against your body. There are no complicated mounts or isolation or expensive amps to buy.

He claims that he is getting good effects from this and that it is an inexpensive solution. He has DSP curves that help protect the exciters and he is getting a decent frequency range out of them.

We are very quick to poke fun at solutions here.

What if he is on to something? What if with the right curves and effects designed for them, they could give someone a good starting tactile experience for not a lot of money?

What if he has actually spent time trying to come up with an inexpensive solution, but we have already made up our minds about exciters?

What if this is a good entry point that is both affordable and something that you can build on later rather than tossing in favor of something else?

What if he is going to share this as part of what will be released in the near future?
 
What if he is on to something?
What if a blind hog stumbles over an acorn?
A key issue with my original SRS cushion was long term discomfort,
as Barry noted in his SRG review.

quick to poke fun at solutions
I have been using and recommending SRS' 4-puck cushion for 2 years,
and I do not doubt that his more sophisticated effect layering is more immersive.

SRS did not offer a 6 puck option when I ordered,
and I since added a pair of Thrusters to my seatback.
To a first approximation, even with practically direct contact,
I am unable to usefully perceive more than a single effect from each transducer, presumably a consequence of signals being linearly added to nonlinear transducers. If, instead of directly connecting SimHub channels to Windows sound output channels,
those effects were instead fed thru e.g.
a MIDI synthesizer which could apply inverse non-linearities,
then more information could be usefully rendered.

Specifically, relatively high frequency tactile energy amplitude-modulated by low frequencies feels quite distinct from those same frequencies linearly mixed.
 
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I get it. I guess I'm trying to separate the message from the messenger. I completely understand the the history. All I'm saying is that if a well thought out inexpensive solution with matching profiles were presented, maybe try not to throw out the baby with the bath water.

To be clear this is a back of a shell seat solution.
 
OK, now I'm going to switch gears. Let's take Mr. Latte's post above.

Part of what he mentioned is an inexpensive solution using 6 exciters on the seat which puts the vibrations directly against your body. There are no complicated mounts or isolation or expensive amps to buy.

He claims that he is getting good effects from this and that it is an inexpensive solution. He has DSP curves that help protect the exciters and he is getting a decent frequency range out of them.

We are very quick to poke fun at solutions here.

What if he is on to something? What if with the right curves and effects designed for them, they could give someone a good starting tactile experience for not a lot of money?

What if he has actually spent time trying to come up with an inexpensive solution, but we have already made up our minds about exciters?

What if this is a good entry point that is both affordable and something that you can build on later rather than tossing in favor of something else?

What if he is going to share this as part of what will be released in the near future?
To many what if’s. The discussion about the “potential “ “coming-soon” system has been going on for ages. It’s my disappointment with this thread - it’s filled with Un filled promises.

It would be great if there was a new thread, which made clear what exists now and exactly how to buy it, and when new things are being released. At least then it would not be so confusing to new people (and others).
 
I think they intended it as a supplement for the direct-to-the-point technologies (motion and gforce). For that it is probably fine. More than fine. But alone, even if you can make the tactile better by spending thousands and getting really deep, just isn’t the ideal way to go.

Again, it’s a terrific supplement.

I think the video clarifies something with many Sim-based YT channels or reviewers on those channels. Some have rather limited experiences with tactile, well perhaps not to the level quite a few people here or in other places already have or own.
So its harder for them to compare against or form a base of what okay or really good tactile is or how it differs in the immersion, fun, entertainment or experiences it adds.

Mike (nice guy) was still quite impressed by the addition of immersion and new life the tactile added. Let's not overlook that before we challenge what we have seen.

You only have to read some of the comments in the video to see how this actually also impresses some people. I get the impression, that some may see 4 units and 4 springs and be like wow!!! It looks quite exciting/different but is it likely some may take it for granted, this will offer a limited suspension/motion experience from the tactile.

We commonly see budget tactile owners/users repeatedly using frequencies between 30Hz-80Hz for many effects. This will be no different. Yet, often a user's own preferred or fave effects, they may use something @ 40-60Hz as this is within the peak output for many models of budget transducers.

When you begin to use the same frequencies over and over this has its own drawbacks regards the generated amplitude of those frequencies but basically, it will make it even harder to feel anything but those peak frequencies the unit delivers best and the user keeps repeating.

What you get in doing this, is a rather narrow frequency range, that feels okay in the scenario of different effects only active briefly, but has a tendency that makes many effects feel very much the same with it being hard to distinguish one effect from another. This is especially the situation when multiple effects are active and that is a typical problem with standard tactile approaches. Any unit will reach a limit with the number of sensations you try to have it manage.

The only way beyond this is simply explained.
To expand your usable frequency range in what frequencies your effects can use or have output. Then to add more body regions. So with this, you have both a wider variety of how sensations are going to feel but also where and how these are felt/detected over your body regions.

Therefore, no longer restricted to a limited frequency range and having all effects being felt/generated and coming from the same fixed position.

So like any 4-way type installation. This configuration has limitations, those effects are always limited to only 2 units to represent what you will primarily feel in the seat and pedals. Yes, some effects for the seat may be felt in the pedals and vice versa, but with simulation, you don't always want that either.

Why, well because with tactile, what matters is having more control to determine by design or concept within your effects, what or how sensations are generated for each body region, and what the combined results in applying that can achieve. Having control is better than not being able to control what is felt.

Here is the first challenge with this system, as its performance is already determined to be at the entry-level with the Aura Pro used. These are very similar in performance to Reckhorn units. Fair enough as Mike points out it offers a new experience over a single BK as yes it is multichannel based.

My own views:
Here are the things I would say are potentially wrong with what this tries to do.

First is, it may give a false impression as to what it really can offer in immersion. The springs make it look exciting, yet their main role is nothing to do with suspension/motion but to help maintain the vibes within the rig frame.

Q. Why would the design not just attach springs to the main frame at the corners of the rig. This way the actual tactile unit is not directly in contact with the spring itself.

The design used, appears to enable the peak output from the unit to be channeled directly into the floor.

However yes the plate also makes direct contact with the rig frame itself too, but surely people can query that it offers a route/pathway for the units generated output to be restricted/reduced well before it reaches its target/destination area.

Two very important things to remember with tactile...

1. Ask yourself, where will the user feel the vibrations? This is easy to answer as it's the body regions we have that are in contact with the rig or components connected to the rig which contain the actual vibrations.
(Primary = Seat/Pedals)
(Secondary = Wheel/Shifter)

2. Look at where the tactile is installed, ask yourself what pathways it have to take to reach its intended destination. Take into account what other possible pathways the vibrations can travel. This will be with any other surfaces, objects that are in contact with the primary installation surface and in contact with each other.

I would say based on my own experiences, that better performance from the units could be achieved if the full peak energy of the tactile units was not wasted but instead was better channeled directly into the materials supporting the primary/secondary components that our body regions have contact with?

Does it not make sense that the seat/pedal sections are not only smaller in comparison to the whole rig frame and if we have these as plates/sections isolated independently from the rig frame. It will then deliver more of the primary energy and detail into the user's body more efficiently.

Folks, simply because it is more directly installed to the user's body regions and less of the energy/detail will disperse to other pathways or directly into the floor prior to you feeling its output.
We should aim to maximise the output of the unit with closer installation placement to the body regions.

To not aim to have, fake wheel/suspension or the whole rig lit as tactile active. As it is much bigger and has increased distance for the tactile to travel. Also as mentioned, producing multiple pathways or contact objects/surfaces the vibrations can and will travel through. This, therefore offers reduced felt sensations, less detailing, and brings limited control.

It is, of course, possible to isolate seat/pedals as recommended instead of the whole rig frame but then have, additional, secondary isolation for the rig frame if desired. This could be spring-based solutions, dampening rubber pads, or industrial rubber wheels. Just depends on how important it is for the user to reduce the number of vibrations that go into the floor.

Regardless of what is used, you cannot fully control the flow, and this becomes more of a challenge if you have much more powerful units as well as units more capable with harmonics or introduce full range game audio into the tactile.

I would say this solution is a bit odd as it does not in my view, make the most of what the tactile will be delivering. Also that should be the priority. It might even be questionable based on how/where the springs are installed, how much the springs add to improve the immersion the units deliver.

Not wanting to come off as being harsh, but this is basically a 10-year-old entry-level Simvibe CM-based installation on springs that appears to use very basic and limited effects within Simhub.

Issues with 4 Corners
It would also likely only offer rather limited stereo representation with L/R-based effects. As it's easy for tactile vibrations from the L/R to mix within a very narrow sim rig cockpit.

Additionally, with the tactile having multiple pathways to travel L/R and F/B freely in my view it is limited in what control of the tactile dispersion it offers, but this is a common issue with 4 way installations.
 
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  • Deleted member 1449502

It is definitely a great way to isolate rig from transmitting vibration to the floor, but what about tactile quality, whatever you bolt to the rig should be powerful enough to move these 230kg and that's a lot comparing to just getting something under the seat or pedals.
What was your experience?
Sorry I didn't make clear in my post that the floating feet are in addition to my seat being isolated via 4 springs/rubber pucks, my pedals are also isolated in the same way. I only explored the feet idea to further isolate the main frame from the floor. I would recommend you to prioritize local isolation first
 

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