Tactile Immersion - General Discussion - Hardware & Software

[HemlockMcGee]

Many of us ( almost all I suspect ) have felt that way. It's a process. There are two issues here. First, you should never spend more than you are comfortable with and I don't think anyone should be twisting your arm. Second, the recommendation of the BK/TST pair is sound and based on lots and lots of testing and trial and error.

You'll get there in your own time.

Probably… It’s a balancing act. And the added cost of a TST is significant. I’m keen to hearing experiences with LFE / Exciters only combinations (if anyone has this).

About that amp…

 

[anton_Chez]

Sorry if my response was a bit vague. I had the exciters you want, directly on the seat. SIX of them. I no longer have them. I do have a pair of BST-2 units on the rear now to complement the rest of the build. I'm yet to balance and tune everything together, but they are 1000% better in terms of how much I feel compared to what the exciters gave me. I can only imagine how utterly useless they would be mounted to a piece of profile, let alone in at attempt at feeling a certain effect on a specific body part. Unless you strap that thing directly to the rear of the brake pedal, you won't get what you're after with those.

Also, I have no idea where this notion that ABS must ONLY be felt through the brake pedal. If anyone is familiar with the sound it makes in the cabin while active, they would know full well that the feedback is pretty high and there's no way that the feeling is isolated on a particular pedal. Do you only feel engine vibes through the throttle? Of course not, it travels through all parts of the car depending on the note and intensity of the revs. Anyone relying solely on a particular source of feedback for driving aids needs to seriously look at their driving. No shade, I'm a garbage driver, no issues admitting that. But I at least understand what's happening with my car most times and what I'm doing to get it to perform a certain action.

Tactile is a very individual experience. You can get as much or as little out of it as you like, once budget and time constraints are taken into consideration. We've all been down the path of, "this will do nicely", yet here I am recommending things that 12 months ago I was adamant I would never bother with.

The 1000D, I would seriously recommend going the 3000 and this is someone who right now is running a 1000D with a 6000 on the couch next to me ready to be swapped over. If you omit the "D"SP element and get the vanilla 3000, where I live it's actually cheaper to get the 3000. Many of us are using software DSP so we're not omitting it entirely but I have used it on the 1000D and I'm pretty sure with my units I'll achieve the same thing through software. It's a good feature to have, but a 3000 is 435 and the 3000D is 650 where I live. That's almost a TST 239 right there in the savings.

I would strongly advise that if you do decide to go with exciters, be prepared to stick those things directly to your seat. You also will not be able to power those with the 1000 if you're already running a BK on it. Unless you run them all in series from one channel, something nobody is doing. You'll need another amp, something like the EPQ304 is popular for those units. You get 4 channels of low/moderate power output, exactly what you want for those units. The Nobsound amps are pretty good for them too, but I'm not sure whether they come in 4 channel variants and as such, you might need a couple of them to get full functionality out of your units.

 

[HemlockMcGee]

Sorry if my response was a bit vague. I had the exciters you want, directly on the seat. SIX of them. I no longer have them. I do have a pair of BST-2 units on the rear now to complement the rest of the build. I'm yet to balance and tune everything together, but they are 1000% better in terms of how much I feel compared to what the exciters gave me. I can only imagine how utterly useless they would be mounted to a piece of profile, let alone in at attempt at feeling a certain effect on a specific body part. Unless you strap that thing directly to the rear of the brake pedal, you won't get what you're after with those.

Also, I have no idea where this notion that ABS must ONLY be felt through the brake pedal. If anyone is familiar with the sound it makes in the cabin while active, they would know full well that the feedback is pretty high and there's no way that the feeling is isolated on a particular pedal. Do you only feel engine vibes through the throttle? Of course not, it travels through all parts of the car depending on the note and intensity of the revs. Anyone relying solely on a particular source of feedback for driving aids needs to seriously look at their driving. No shade, I'm a garbage driver, no issues admitting that. But I at least understand what's happening with my car most times and what I'm doing to get it to perform a certain action.

Tactile is a very individual experience. You can get as much or as little out of it as you like, once budget and time constraints are taken into consideration. We've all been down the path of, "this will do nicely", yet here I am recommending things that 12 months ago I was adamant I would never bother with.

The 1000D, I would seriously recommend going the 3000 and this is someone who right now is running a 1000D with a 6000 on the couch next to me ready to be swapped over. If you omit the "D"SP element and get the vanilla 3000, where I live it's actually cheaper to get the 3000. Many of us are using software DSP so we're not omitting it entirely but I have used it on the 1000D and I'm pretty sure with my units I'll achieve the same thing through software. It's a good feature to have, but a 3000 is 435 and the 3000D is 650 where I live. That's almost a TST 239 right there in the savings.

I would strongly advise that if you do decide to go with exciters, be prepared to stick those things directly to your seat. You also will not be able to power those with the 1000 if you're already running a BK on it. Unless you run them all in series from one channel, something nobody is doing. You'll need another amp, something like the EPQ304 is popular for those units. You get 4 channels of low/moderate power output, exactly what you want for those units. The Nobsound amps are pretty good for them too, but I'm not sure whether they come in 4 channel variants and as such, you might need a couple of them to get full functionality out of your units.

Np. And ofcourse I understand how ABS works and feels. Point is that - whilst ABS is felt throughout the whole car - the brake pedal is also rattling hefty at you. My idea for the exciters was indeed to mount them directly on the back of the pedals. Same for the seat, they’ll be mounted directly to the bucket. I’m a pretty decent driver and want to add tactile for immersion as well as performance. Some effects go in one category, others in the other.

BST-2 coukd be an alternative to the Dayton pucks for me. So that would make:

Seat
1 x BK LFE
4 x BST-2 (direct on-chair mount)

Pedals
1 x BK LFE
2 x BST-2 (direct pedal mount)

Amps
2 x NX3000 for the LFEs
2 x nobsoubd or eeuivslent for BST-2s

From a pricepoint perspective I have no issues going with the 3000 without DSP. Meaning I will have to use a software DSP. Any tips on that?

 

[anton_Chez]

If you were to go direct pedal mount then I think it's OK to use the exciters. I would not put the BST units in the same way, they are pretty heavy and would be much better suited on a plate or something else that mounts to the profile, assuming you have an aluminium extrusion cockpit.

I'm yet to completely swap over to software DSP so I'm in the same boat as you on that. I've got some resources to refer to, I'm sure other members will be able to point you in the right direction. The software I'm pretty sure is free so no real barrier to entry there.

The 3000's bridged for each LFE would be about as far as you'd need to go for those. In my opinion a 1000 bridged can do the job BUT having a 3000 for a very small amount more than a 1000 non D is a much better decision.

4 BST's on the seat might even be too much. If you have free shipping from where you are buying, perhaps you start with 2 and see if it's needed to add another pair? They will surprise you with their power and unless you're sending a single effect to each one, or each pair, then you probably will be more than happy with 2 BST units + the BK on the seat.

 

[HemlockMcGee]

So recap on the amps, just so I’m on the same page:

1x NX3000 bridged for the LFEs
2x EPQ304 or similar for the BST-2s

 

[RCHeliguy]

So recap on the amps, just so I’m on the same page:

1x NX3000 bridged for the LFEs
2x EPQ304 or similar for the BST-2s

The NX 3000 can handle one LFE per channel.
There is no need to bridge the channels. If you did, you could only drive one LFE with that amplifier.

The EPQ304 is fine for pushing exciters.

 

[metalnwood]

Edit - I just saw all the other replies so mine is largely irrelevant now.

Personally I just run a tst on the pedals and an LFE/tst on the seat. The tst's working range is delivering the freq's I want for the effects that are suitable for the pedals.

I have thought on and off about spending the $ to add an LFE and I probably will at some point but it certainly hasnt seemed like a priority. The one on the seat works well, I have not been convinced that the one on the pedals is is necessary.

I believe I have seen one or two people talk about running the LFE on the 1000 but they may have bridged itusing both channels to power it. Sorry I can't say how well it may perform.

 

[DirkW]

I just found out how to bring my brake pedal more "alive". I have a bass shaker mounted directly on the brake pedal for abs/wheel block feedback, but just regular braking felt so sterile. Now, Simhub offers a telemetry setting "decelerating g-force", which signal I put on the shaker. So now as soon as I push the brake pedal, the car naturally decelerates and the shaker hits in with a nice 65hz white noise vibration which feels exactly as if the brake pads are rubbing on the disks. Maybe that's old news to many, just sharing if you didn't try it yet.

 

[HemlockMcGee]

I just found out how to bring my brake pedal more "alive". I have a bass shaker mounted directly on the brake pedal for abs/wheel block feedback, but just regular braking felt so sterile. Now, Simhub offers a telemetry setting "decelerating g-force", which signal I put on the shaker. So now as soon as I push the brake pedal, the car naturally decelerates and the shaker hits in with a nice 65hz white noise vibration which feels exactly as if the brake pads are rubbing on the disks. Maybe that's old news to many, just sharing if you didn't try it yet.

It's exactly the reason why I want to mount a unit to my pedals. Can you elaborate on your setup? What are you running on seat and pedals?

 

[HemlockMcGee]

Anybody here running Mr. Latte's / SimTag RaceBass isolators? I saw some threads here trying to do the same (or is it the other way around ) Have not seen many people supplying feedback on them.

Was about to order them, but the unpleasant surprise of shipping costs added to an already hefty pricetag made me cancel my order. I live in the Netherlands. SimTag is a Belgian holding. Why on earth is shipping 4 screws with some springs 19 euros?! Shame shame shame.

 

[stigs2cousin]

Was about to order them, but the unpleasant surprise of shipping costs added to an already hefty pricetag made me cancel my order. I live in the Netherlands. SimTag is a Belgian holding. Why on earth is shipping 4 screws with some springs 19 euros?! Shame shame shame.

Why do they charge 19€ for going to the shelf, packaging the items and arrange delivery?

Because they can

Amazon has spoilt us with "free delivery" ( which isn´t free but hidden in the price).

As probably driving to Belgium and picking up the parts will cost more in fuel ( don´t calculate time) there is only the one question:

do you want them enough??

( funny thing:

I just checked the Simtag website for the carrier and it says delivery free even for one set of isolators??)

Maybe have another look,

Carsten

 

[anton_Chez]

They are pretty heavy, the springs. At least the ones that I bought are. I got 12, locally, postage was 15 AUD. That was just springs, no rubber pucks or screws or anything. So yeah, on face value the dampers are a lot of money, but depending on the scale of your tactile build, it may be really worth it or not very worth it.

 

[HemlockMcGee]

Why do they charge 19€ for going to the shelf, packaging the items and arrange delivery?

Because they can

Amazon has spoilt us with "free delivery" ( which isn´t free but hidden in the price).

As probably driving to Belgium and picking up the parts will cost more in fuel ( don´t calculate time) there is only the one question:

do you want them enough??

( funny thing:

I just checked the Simtag website for the carrier and it says delivery free even for one set of isolators??)

Maybe have another look,

Carsten

Lol. Ofcourse I understand the basics of economics. That doesn't mean I like them. Or want to comply with them. I'm an advocate for Customer Experience. And this is bad CX.

Here I am complaining publicly about them. I would be complaining a bit less if the shipping costs were mentioned up front (instead of final step of ordering process). I would be complaining even more less if shipping costs were incorporated in the price (spreading the cost over # projected customers).

Plus if nobody puts in effort to complain about it, but rather just b*nd over, you will be sure nothing's gonna change.

 

[HemlockMcGee]

They are pretty heavy, the springs. At least the ones that I bought are. I got 12, locally, postage was 15 AUD. That was just springs, no rubber pucks or screws or anything. So yeah, on face value the dampers are a lot of money, but depending on the scale of your tactile build, it may be really worth it or not very worth it.

You are talking about the RaceBass set, right?

 

[anton_Chez]

On the hardware shopping list question, I would seriously consider a single EPQ amp and 4 BST units. But, if it's what you really want, then 2 amps for 6 BST units will be fine and as Mark mentioned, a single 3000 should see you through 2 large BK units.

Just hope Pitspeed isn't lurking to have an aneurysm at thought of me giving that advice.

 

[anton_Chez]

You are talking about the RaceBass set, right?

Not the official ones, my own locally sourced parts. But they are comparable in structure and what they hope to achieve. For the purpose of comparing your shipping prices, consider them the same.

 

[HemlockMcGee]

On the hardware shopping list question, I would seriously consider a single EPQ amp and 4 BST units. But, if it's what you really want, then 2 amps for 6 BST units will be fine and as Mark mentioned, a single 3000 should see you through 2 large BK units.

Just hope Pitspeed isn't lurking to have an aneurysm at thought of me giving that advice.

Thanks again. Appreciate everybody taking the time to reply.

I already have one LFE (managed to snag an older model for a steal), so that's going on the rig no matter what haha. Right now, I'm going to start with the seat first. Once that's all done and dusted, I'll start with the pedal setup.

Seat components
Underneath
1 x NX3000 (can later drive pedal unit also)
1 x BK LFE

Bottom-rear
1 x EPQ304 (can later drive pedal units also)
2 x BST-2

I'm going to mount the LFE to two 4040 profiles that run across underneath the seat, connecting to the seat brackets. I will put the seat brackets on top of (something like) RaceBass isolators. So any suggestions on parts for rubber, springs and hardware will be highly appreciated..

The BST-2 will be mounted directly to the bucket of the seat.

 

[anton_Chez]

Thanks again. Appreciate everybody taking the time to reply.

I already have one LFE (managed to snag an older model for a steal), so that's going on the rig no matter what haha. Right now, I'm going to start with the seat first. Once that's all done and dusted, I'll start with the pedal setup.

Seat components
Underneath
1 x NX3000 (can later drive pedal units also)
1 x BK LFE

Bottom-rear
1 x EPQ304 (can later drive pedal units also)
2 x BST-2

I'm going to mount the LFE to two 4040 profiles that run across underneath the seat, connecting to the seat brackets. I will put the seat brackets on top of (something like) RaceBass isolators. So any suggestions on parts for rubber, springs and hardware will be highly appreciated..

The BST-2 will be mounted directly to the bucket of the seat.

View attachment 565811

This actually sounds like a perfect plan. Actually exactly what I would recommend to start with. In both type of units, location and quantity. Also the seat is most important so tackle that first and see how you go. I still would push to get you at least a TST 239, preferably a 329 but I would never recommend someone to pay retail for a 429. But a 239 at retail would be a great unit to add especially for engine and wheel slip.

But I endorse the BST units as a cost effective alternative provided they are mounted as close as possible to the body ie the seat.

I wish you luck finding stock in everything you're after.

 

[No Depth]

Another option for the pedal mount is going with vibration motors. I just got a set of Sim3D motors for my pedals and I kind of love them.

They feel very different from the BK under my deck(no TST to compare), so it’s very noticeable and obvious when I get informational cues from them on slip, lock, etc…in contrast to the more “immersive” effects on my BK. I also have RPM running on the throttle, which sends a nice reminder to my foot at point of rev limit to shift.

 

[HemlockMcGee]

Another option for the pedal mount is going with vibration motors. I just got a set of Sim3D motors for my pedals and I kind of love them.

They feel very different from the BK under my deck(no TST to compare), so it’s very noticeable and obvious when I get informational cues from them on slip, lock, etc…in contrast to the more “immersive” effects on my BK. I also have RPM running on the throttle, which sends a nice reminder to my foot at point of rev limit to shift.

So you have the motors on the pedals and the BK under the deck?