Tactile Immersion - General Discussion - Hardware & Software

[hectichaptic]

Hi, welcome to RD forums....

While "audio tactile" enjoyment from games can be quite good. The problem with "using game audio" from consoles is that you will get a very mixed bag of how well the tactile will feel from game-game. Even some cars being much better than others.

Some titles do not give much control over the individual sound effects in games. This limits what you can do. Other issues are some game menus, the music of boom effects some games have can feel annoying every time you finish a race or enter a menu.These are all factors worth mentioning that you will discover.

I haven't looked in a while but its best to avoid HDMI based converters and set the PS4 or XB1 to output audio via both HDMI and Optical. You should find adapters that use Optical input from the console and then enable 5.1 or 7.1 multichannel analog outputs via 3.5mm jacks.

You would then take cables from the appropriate channel outputs, for example, the front stereo or rear stereo pairs and have this goto the amps powering the tactile. I can look further into possible options just right now its late, zzzzzzzzz .

Really for this idea you have, PC is the way to go and I agree with the abuse such would get in how its going to be used you should consider more Robust hardware.

Also it may be wise to check the legal restrictions/requirements on this being made for public use or possible commercial gain. Not sure what is valid regarding this.

Thanks for the reply!

I had thought that I may fall foul of Sonys legal position but was hoping to wing it for my first summer season! The bar will in Palmanova, Mallorca. I was hoping to draw holidaymakers that have a playstation at home. I would also like for the user to be able to select PC titles but I saw that as a bit further down the road. Point well taken regarding the necessity for very robust equipment. Whats the toughest stuff?

The tactile transducers arrived today. Lovely as it all is, it has just dawned on me that it will all soon have to suffer the rigours or three lots of airport baggage handlers one the way back!

 

[Turvey]

Ok this be all new to me , i think ive worked myself into a pickle reading this thread.
Whats the most simplest way to connect 2 buttkickers to my pc.do i need a second sound card or is that only if i go the way of simvibe.

 

[Furnace Inferno]

Thanks for the reply, Furnace. I had thought about the vulnerability of the wheel and quick release mechanism. I was thinking about fabricating the cage in a way that people could kind of swing in. That was obviously not very well thought out. I have a T-GT for home use and it's that which has got me thinking about a racing sim bar/cafe. It'll do for testing though. You mentioned that you don't think that the Fanatic stuff would stand much abuse either? Never seen it in the flesh but it looks pretty tough. I have to include the PC stuff in my thinking as I'm hoping to draw people in who have a playstation at home. Could you point me in the direction of some good direct drive wheels ?

As you’re in Europe I’d recommend https://www.simracingbay.com/ as the best option for the motor and then from there you have four options for the rim.

A USB converted Fanatec rim and use a 70mm bolt pattern converter instead of the original QR so that you can bolt it directly to the OSW, otherwise it could just easily be taken off with a quick release.

A custom rim for similar price if not a bit cheaper which you can again bolt to the rig like this one: https://www.simracingcoach.com/en/contenido/volante-gt1/ that one is actually made in Spain too. May be worth getting just the button box without rim https://www.simracingcoach.com/en/contenido/panel-botones-y-levas/ and using a leather rim which won’t wear out and look beat up as quickly if that is a concern.

A basic rim wth just paddle shifters, cheaper but you won’t have any buttons but that also means less things to break, not sure where to find them though.

Then finally the most durable and one of the cheapest options would be to just bolt a wheel rim directly to the OSW without any buttons or shifters and then have a separate sequential shifter on the rig like from Heusinkveld engineering same place I’d also recommend getting pedals and gives a bundle discount. https://heusinkveld.com/products/shifters-handbrakes/sim-shifter-sequential-2/?v=79cba1185463

The latter option would also make it more like one of the arcade machines and you could get the cheaper 2-pedal set if you don’t need a clutch/h-shifter combo.

As to why not Fanatec, their stuff looks great but it is still just consumer hardware built to a cost. Consider this, it has around a 50W motor and it’s not like it has tons of juice to spare, the small Mige is run at nearly 500W which I believe is only 1/2 it’s rated max. The 50W motor is something you’d find in a cheap washing machine whereas the DD wheel motors are designed to run 24/7 at full speed in industrial applications.

Then there is how much force the actual shaft the wheel connects to can take. DD wheels are tested with a lot of force 140kg + meaning any average person can hang of it with their full body weight no problem, the CSW however would not take that kind of abuse. Neither the hollow shaft or QR which is a smaller/cheaper version of actual automotive quick releases (DD wheels can use the actual automotive class QR’s) would take that kind of force.

Now it’s not to say Fanatec don’t have great products but for commercial use of any equipment, consumer grade stuff just isn’t designed for it. Take that shifter for example, will easily take the abuse but I’d consider looking for a sealed option or enclosure for it because a kid or some idiot may put food or something in the top gap. I imagine that’s why all arcade cabinets have nothing exposed.

 

[Milkie]

I have just started with this tactile immersion and I'm getting hooked!
I only have a couple of Reckhorns, 1x BS200 / 1x BS200i, one under the seat and one on the pedal platform hooked up to an NU3000DSP, running a LPF.
I only use my PS4 for gaming and I'm using an optical 5.1 to RCA splitter and using the Sub output for the seat and Centre for the pedals.

I've noticed that PCars2 on PS4 now outputs UDP Telemetry. My question is, could I use SimVibe or SimShaker on the PC to output to the shakers? Is it a case of just adjusting the configs and setting the correct IP address of the PS4?

 

[dud]

I see a lot of reference to audio power amps.

Check out is used professional music power amps. Places for used instruments (Music Go Round etc) carry used P.A. amps for next to nothing. They are powerful (no funny spec as in "50 millisecond RMS") and they have much better protection against fault, as in not blowing up your speakers. Watch for fan noise but many are very nice.

Another thing to check out is rackmount studio/PA compressors. They do the same thing as you can do in software, but it is much quicker to find your setting given the hardware knobs, and hopefully useful LED strips. Same goes for EQs or crossovers. Instead of just using the subwoofer out from 5.1 your could start from a full range signal and then cherry pick frequencies that work for you.

 

[Mr Latte]

I have just started with this tactile immersion and I'm getting hooked!
I only have a couple of Reckhorns, 1x BS200 / 1x BS200i, one under the seat and one on the pedal platform hooked up to an NU3000DSP, running a LPF.
I only use my PS4 for gaming and I'm using an optical 5.1 to RCA splitter and using the Sub output for the seat and Centre for the pedals.

I've noticed that PCars2 on PS4 now outputs UDP Telemetry. My question is, could I use SimVibe or SimShaker on the PC to output to the shakers? Is it a case of just adjusting the configs and setting the correct IP address of the PS4?

I would be keen to get your opinion on some frequency tests with the 200 and the newer 200i
Could then add this to the collection of scores I have already obtained from people over the years to help form a general idea on each units character and performances.

If you'd like to help, please PM me

 

[hectichaptic]

As you’re in Europe I’d recommend https://www.simracingbay.com/ as the best option for the motor and then from there you have four options for the rim.

A USB converted Fanatec rim and use a 70mm bolt pattern converter instead of the original QR so that you can bolt it directly to the OSW, otherwise it could just easily be taken off with a quick release.

A custom rim for similar price if not a bit cheaper which you can again bolt to the rig like this one: https://www.simracingcoach.com/en/contenido/volante-gt1/ that one is actually made in Spain too. May be worth getting just the button box without rim https://www.simracingcoach.com/en/contenido/panel-botones-y-levas/ and using a leather rim which won’t wear out and look beat up as quickly if that is a concern.

A basic rim wth just paddle shifters, cheaper but you won’t have any buttons but that also means less things to break, not sure where to find them though.

Then finally the most durable and one of the cheapest options would be to just bolt a wheel rim directly to the OSW without any buttons or shifters and then have a separate sequential shifter on the rig like from Heusinkveld engineering same place I’d also recommend getting pedals and gives a bundle discount. https://heusinkveld.com/products/shifters-handbrakes/sim-shifter-sequential-2/?v=79cba1185463

The latter option would also make it more like one of the arcade machines and you could get the cheaper 2-pedal set if you don’t need a clutch/h-shifter combo.

As to why not Fanatec, their stuff looks great but it is still just consumer hardware built to a cost. Consider this, it has around a 50W motor and it’s not like it has tons of juice to spare, the small Mige is run at nearly 500W which I believe is only 1/2 it’s rated max. The 50W motor is something you’d find in a cheap washing machine whereas the DD wheel motors are designed to run 24/7 at full speed in industrial applications.

Then there is how much force the actual shaft the wheel connects to can take. DD wheels are tested with a lot of force 140kg + meaning any average person can hang of it with their full body weight no problem, the CSW however would not take that kind of abuse. Neither the hollow shaft or QR which is a smaller/cheaper version of actual automotive quick releases (DD wheels can use the actual automotive class QR’s) would take that kind of force.

Now it’s not to say Fanatec don’t have great products but for commercial use of any equipment, consumer grade stuff just isn’t designed for it. Take that shifter for example, will easily take the abuse but I’d consider looking for a sealed option or enclosure for it because a kid or some idiot may put food or something in the top gap. I imagine that’s why all arcade cabinets have nothing exposed.

Thanks Furnace,

I didn't fancy going down the PC road first as it looked a bit daunting what with the fabrication of the rig and coming to terms with all the tactile stuff etc. I can now see though that expecting home game gear to do the job was a bit naive. I have a year to get two working rigs built, tested and ready so I will go ahead with the PC route and invest in some of the beautiful kit that you provided links for. I'd appreciate some suggestions for getting a suitable PC built up. I had no initial plans for a three screen setup but it would probably be sensible to future proof myself a bit. That would be 3 video cards, presumably?

 

[Furnace Inferno]

Thanks Furnace,

I didn't fancy going down the PC road first as it looked a bit daunting what with the fabrication of the rig and coming to terms with all the tactile stuff etc. I can now see though that expecting home game gear to do the job was a bit naive. I have a year to get two working rigs built, tested and ready so I will go ahead with the PC route and invest in some of the beautiful kit that you provided links for. I'd appreciate some suggestions for getting a suitable PC built up. I had no initial plans for a three screen setup but it would probably be sensible to future proof myself a bit. That would be 3 video cards, presumably?

No just one 1080Ti would do the trick just make sure it’s got enough video outputs that match your screens, whether that’s display port (dp), hdmi or dvi.

If you are looking at rigs I personally jusr switched from a GT Ultimate V2 to a Sim-Lab P1 and the jump in quality/sturdiness is astounding so I’d definitely recommend the 80/20 Aluminium profile route. The two big ones in Europe are Sim-Lab and Heusinkveld, the latter would give a 20% discount in the pedals if you got both in a bundle and comes with triple monitor mount as standard.

The real difficulty you will have in PC is menu navigation and I’m not sure on solutions to get around that without a keyboard & mouse.

 

[hectichaptic]

No just one 1080Ti would do the trick just make sure it’s got enough video outputs that match your screens, whether that’s display port (dp), hdmi or dvi.

If you are looking at rigs I personally jusr switched from a GT Ultimate V2 to a Sim-Lab P1 and the jump in quality/sturdiness is astounding so I’d definitely recommend the 80/20 Aluminium profile route. The two big ones in Europe are Sim-Lab and Heusinkveld, the latter would give a 20% discount in the pedals if you got both in a bundle and comes with triple monitor mount as standard.

The real difficulty you will have in PC is menu navigation and I’m not sure on solutions to get around that without a keyboard & mouse.

No, That's OK. The bar that I have in mind has a small office near to where the rigs will go. I'd put the PCs and amps in there on a rack and control things from there. I have the ability to bend and TIG weld a tubular framed rig so buying one will not be necessary. I just need to be careful with the spec of the PC. A sim racing site is saw mentioned that windows 8 is a shocker of a thing and windows 7 is the way to go. That said, it didn't mention 10 so the post may not have been all that recent.

 

[Mr Latte]

2018 Updates Begin:
Made some progress with my own rig ideas and improving my seat for tactile testing.
I have a big change coming for an improved tactile installation for my own seat in the coming weeks. A long overdue update for my frame/isolation and adding a BK Concert also to the seat for new engine tests.

Engine Experiments:
Have decided to test "engine effects" in having them separated from the left/right channels.
Keeping the 4 main channels for bumps / wheel- slip / lateral G. This is to maximise felt sensation of any directional effects or effects related to the cars chassis movement.

Why, well with "engine effects" almost being constant this can detract from a single units performance of other felt effects. Also but to less extent, this happens with a "Dual Role" configuration. The problem, however, is the desire to still have a powerful and detailed engine sensation.

Example:
On many users Simvibe installations. They are using Mini LFE over CM & EM channels and two soundcards. An engine effect output on 4x CM channels is likely going to feel richer/better than a single EM channel.

So for an engine effects delivery, that's possibly a 4-1 or perhaps 4-2 if EM installed units are in both seat/pedals. Inj this case the user may gain better detail delivery of "bump effects" on the 4 main channels but now has an "engine effect" with limited sensation as on fewer units.

Some people may even have engine on all channels, combining all effects on their CM & EM installed units.

Each option, has it seems, its own compromises in how good the "bump detailing" may be to how well "engine energy" is felt and displaced.


Creating EM & CM in SSW?
To some extents yes, with SSW .wav effects we determine what channels each effect is output on. So its possible to have "engine" on all "6 units" or only the single for example "sub" channel output.

We can restrict mono based effects to the cen/sub channels of the soundcard. Keeping the directional effects for the stereo channels.

I still wanted to have "engine effects" not restricted to a single unit. The desire to still have a rich and detailed engine is important.

So for me it will be interesting to see how the BK Concert compares to the BK LFE. As this is something I have not yet discovered for myself. Will the supposed stronger response in 40-80Hz for the BK Concert provide the better engine response? While a BK LFE for the main bumps etc is more focused in performance (supposedly) with below 40Hz range.

Who has really went to such measures to test and compare? As really none of the "sim youtube channels" focus on tactile whatsoever.

So for this new role I am going to test the BK Concert and TST 329 Gold combined to operate in "Dual Role" as a central/mono "engine" tactile output. This should deliver on their own sufficent levels of depth and detail.

These units output will be delivered into the seat from underneath and also into the lower spine region on the back of the seat. Then its output/strength balanced to blend with the stereo directional channels.


Pushing Immersion Limits:
This will now be 6x high-end tactile units working in unison for the seat and incorporating 2 units per channel. So now "Dual Role" for "Rear Left" / "Rear Right" and "Subwoofer" output channels.


My Seat Tactile:

Left = BK LFE & TST 429 Platinium / Right = BK LFE & TST 429 Platinium
Sub = BK Concert & TST 329 Gold​

SSSSShhhhhh
Also finally got all my iNuke amps updated with replacement Noctua NF-R8 1800 PWM fans, ahhhhh the silence.


First though, pleased to of gained a feature I wanted....


Maximum Control
For a while I have wanted full control of the sound output of each channel, so having a solution similar to a button box beside my seat. Using linear rotary knobs from a mixer/splitter device to adjust the gain control prior to amplification of each channel.



*Shown previously in other threads


Currently, I have tested this with both audio and SSW using rear stereo channels on the seat.
So now I can manually alter the +/- gain from my seat to adjust:

1. Felt level of "audio tactile"
2. Remove "audio tactile" from mix
3. Felt level of "SSW/Simvibe" effects
4. Remove "SSW/Simvibe" from mix
5. Mute all or any individual channel

Advantages:
No need to constantly go into soundcard options or software controls, also great when in VR, just reach down and adjust the appropriate rotary knob.

My goal is to have this for Left/Cen//Right and Left-Sur/Sub/Right-Sur channels.
From a testing perspective, I can then feel only what each channel is doing and mute all others in an instant.

Additionally, great for my own testing to feel what for example "audio-tactile" is doing compared to the "telemetry" based tactile. Or how an individual effect from "telemetry" based tactile is operating over, all installed relevant tactile or just a single installed tactile unit.


The journey continues.....

 

[signman]

Sounds exciting stuff Rod.

 

[Mr Latte]

Sounds exciting stuff Rod.

BK Concert arrived today, just have it temporarily attached to cockpit.
So its on the left side of my seat opposite the BK LFE on the right.

Set up the iNuke 3000 to use 2ohm on the left channel and 4ohm on the right (something most amps cant do). Balanced the input/output levels using the Remote connect meters for both. Then set a 100Hz crossover for both units.

Spent an hour testing SSW individual effects and then running with all.
Used the "Split Mix" controls to eliminate one BK unit then the other for immediate comparisons for each.

First impressions are it certainly has a very different character to the BK LFE.
It has a smoother, milder, rebound type sensation, brings additional liveliness and for some effects it certainly improves over the BK LFE for finer details. Yet if comparing each as single units, there is no question that the BK LFE has a deeper, more satisfying and gritty low-end output. So while the BK LFE suffers in the 60Hz+ detailing. It appears each can bring the strongest Hz for their own specific frequency ranges. This may help towards having them in such different roles.

What I would say from such an early test is that the Concert will be good for engine role, max RPM came across much better as did some engine revs. Although it has if anything potential to deliver so much power in the @30-50Hz region that it can be too strong and feel discomforting. Something that can easily be refined with the iNuke DSP I reckon.

 

[Mr Latte]

Morning Coffee & Testing @ Lattes

Ive edited this post as with further testing things are inconclusive with the way each is currently installed. Also the variations of comparing is rather hard as ohms/wattage plays a big part. 20Hz for example at strong volumes with 0dB gain and then with 12dB gain are two very different sensations of the same frequency. One is pleasant the other is like your brain and eardrums are shaking inside your head.

I cant be certain the iNuke is delivering the same output wattage to each model.
The Remote Connect does not represent true wattage output.

I don't want to give a false report on this, so will wait to further tests that are conducted with more thought and consideration. Its actually more difficult than I thought to try and do such a comparison.

Do find differences in each yet the Concert does still seem very capable with low Hz when pushed hard.

 

[Hiro Abe]

I've dipped my toe in the tactile waters for a bit with limited success. Ever since I built myself an 8020 rig my budget kit wasn't up to snuff. So I've started perusing through these threads and reading the variety of experiences. I myself have spent hours playing with SimVibe settings and transducer placement and am convinced I need to step it up to achieve satisfactory results.

Now... I'm not totally bent on hyper-realism. Yes, SimVibe's CM when working is pretty cool but what I've noticed that when I upped my game and got a Fanatec CSW (a dd wheel is in my future) I noticed that some of the ffb was shaking my rig to the extent I could feel it in my seat which I think is pretty cool. So, at the moment I'm just looking to amplify that type of shaking as it relates, primarily, to road bumps.

Yes, I do have a question and getting to it...

I have a theory. My seat is up on 6" 8020 posts. I feel that the shaking that is resonating throughout my rig is helped by my wheel supported by 3 foot posts like many 8020 rigs. I imagine this is more susceptible to l/r movement and what currently causes my whole rig to shake at times. What if I take, say, a Buttkicker Advance and mount it horizontally under my seat. With the piston moving laterally and that my seat is standing on 6" posts, that it is more prone to lateral movement rather than trying to bounce it with the BK's piston moving up/down. Anyone experiment with something akin to this?

 

[Mr Latte]

I've dipped my toe in the tactile waters for a bit with limited success. Ever since I built myself an 8020 rig my budget kit wasn't up to snuff. So I've started perusing through these threads and reading the variety of experiences. I myself have spent hours playing with SimVibe settings and transducer placement and am convinced I need to step it up to achieve satisfactory results.

Now... I'm not totally bent on hyper-realism. Yes, SimVibe's CM when working is pretty cool but what I've noticed that when I upped my game and got a Fanatec CSW (a dd wheel is in my future) I noticed that some of the ffb was shaking my rig to the extent I could feel it in my seat which I think is pretty cool. So, at the moment I'm just looking to amplify that type of shaking as it relates, primarily, to road bumps.

Yes, I do have a question and getting to it...

I have a theory. My seat is up on 6" 8020 posts. I feel that the shaking that is resonating throughout my rig is helped by my wheel supported by 3 foot posts like many 8020 rigs. I imagine this is more susceptible to l/r movement and what currently causes my whole rig to shake at times. What if I take, say, a Buttkicker Advance and mount it horizontally under my seat. With the piston moving laterally and that my seat is standing on 6" posts, that it is more prone to lateral movement rather than trying to bounce it with the BK's piston moving up/down. Anyone experiment with something akin to this?

Hi, the movement or momentum of the piston in the Buttkicker is not relevant to the effects.
The piston may operate based on the "cycles per second / Hz" of the relevant frequencies it has to generate. This can even be with multiple (very different) effects operating at once.

I believe Buttkicker themselves state the best performance comes from the piston being vertical.

I can say that for SSW, if it is using a good created .wav from Audacity for say "Lateral G"
It can be very satisfying on a good and powerful Buttkicker unit. You can notice this with fast swooping left/right steering. It also seems strong when hanging a car out on the outer edge of a corner at speed and steering in towards the apex on the limits of grip.

So a left turn will activate the right shaker and likewise a right turn the left shaker.
A single or mono unit will just activate the sensation the same with no directional cue for the felt load.

One thing SSW does really well and better than Simvibe is giving a sense of the cars grip and load in its usage of "Wheelslip" and the "Lateral G". I can sense from my tactile the back end of the cars traction, just with gaming on a joypad.

You should give this a try, even if the default effects are similar and limited.

One guy (dododge) I think at ISRTV forums had his Buttkickers on spring-based mounts.
It's a very inaccurate and rather flawed thinking to try and get actual motion from tactile.

 

[Ceolmor]

Interesting stuff. So, with regard to Buttkicker placement, which of the following statements are true:

A The isolators are only to reduce vibration travelling to other parts of the rig and NOT to allow a little movement in the rig/seat above.

B A Buttkicker having the ability to move up and down a little (e.g. on a bracket attached cantilever style) is NOT required, or of any advantage.

C The more rigid the Buttkicker is held, the better.

D The more rigid the seat is held, in place the better.

 

[signman]

A The isolators are only to reduce vibration travelling to other parts of the rig and NOT to allow a little movement in the rig/seat above.

Isolator's under chassis help to retain energy in rig and not dissipate through the floor .
Under the seat / pedal's they help retain the energy to backside/feet.

B A Buttkicker having the ability to move up and down a little (e.g. on a bracket attached cantilever style) is NOT required, or of any advantage.

I still have a rubber isolator wedged between the top of an Advance and section of profile my shifter is attached to. This is working great and send vibes through my Manufactory sequential.

C The more rigid the Buttkicker is held, the better.

Mine are hard mounted to plates that bolt directly to my seat base.
Energy must be wasted bleeding into the main rig, I'm hoping to isolate my seat from main rig soon although it feels so good as is.

D The more rigid the seat is held, in place the better.

I have yet to test.

 

[Mr Latte]

Check for me if the "cylinder casing" on the Advance is above (not quite touching the surface) as its feet do.

The BK Advance sofa mount is molded to the shape of its underside with a small ventilation hole.

BK LFE sofa mount has a large hole the dia of the piston body.
BK Concert throne mount has a large hole too under the piston.

I presume for "plates" these drilled holes are probably to help prevent piston thump issues or help in some way the activity of the piston. It seems too large for just ventilation/cooling.

Personally, on my own rig, I am for buying two of the official BK LFE sofa mounts from Nigel at @SimShaker and will cut these, then adapt or bolt to my steel tubing.

I have the Concert Throne mount (really heavy/thick) but I need to make a specific one for how its going to be installed. Will copy though, this hole idea but cant be certain how necessary it is for installed flat surfaces or plates.

 

[Ceolmor]

The "cylinder casing" on the Advance is above (not quite touching the surface) as its feet do. The feet are raised so that they are a few millimetres above the casing.

Also, I have a gap in the centre of my mounts as follows:

So I doubt that the casing is 'slapping' against the mounts. I suspect the noise is due to either:

• The way the Buttkicker is attached and/or my isolation.
• To much energy coming from the software/amp (the problem is mainly on bumps).
• The Buttkicker is faulty.

Off to do yet more tinkering....

 

[signman]

My advance slap too..sometimes after I've hit a big bump they continue to bang.

This is in Bumps running @ 40%
20% filtering

If I run zero filtering ..No clang.