AC Round 3 of 23 Formula Agile 2023 Thu, March 30th 2023

[gearwhine]

The two race format certainly spices things up and having just had a chance to take a look at the replays here are my thoughts;

Race one, I avoided the predictable lap 1 coming together and was running well ( or so I thought) around P6/7 when Han tested me twice and I was found seriously lacking in the braking department.
Thanks for waiting Han, I have known that braking is where I lose time but I might be looking at getting some of them desirable/expensive Dutch pedal sets sometime soon if I can stop as late as you in future.

Race two and with the reverse grid, I ended up as the cause of the T1 chaos as I did a 'Bottas' on, I think, Omar. Apologies Omar, I didn't expect the cars in front of me to slow so early (my braking issues again!!) but I think it was you who I clattered into causing a chain reaction. Sorry but I waited for the field to go by and managed to finish seventh to match the first race result, even though Omar and Carsten were closing me down in the final minutes.

Well done podiums and thanks Markus for running this series, the racing is intense and frantic but IMHO the car is fun while challenging to drive while giving a bit of a feel what it is like to race F1 , if at a slower pace and for a lot shorter time. Huge respect to those who make it to the top flight of motorsport.

Hey Aardvark, i brake early and let drivers pass me rather than brake too late. Maybe it is from our Enduro riding days when we had to brake on slime and roots while doing 50 mph through forest tracks

 

[Shed 17]

Hey Aardvark, i brake early and let drivers pass me rather than brake too late. Maybe it is from our Enduro riding days when we had to brake on slime and roots while doing 50 mph through forest tracks

Your'e spot on there Steve, braking on a dirt bike has to be VERY gentle and controlled as wrapping yourself around a tree is not an option. (i have had the broken bones to prove it).

I'm definitely in the slow in, Captain Slowish out group and watching how Fulvio and the like get traction out of corners is a mystery to me.

Likewise the top class sportsmen in any field make it look so easy.

 

[stigs2cousin]

As I mentioned above I also see my problems in the braking zones

A small difference in brake application has huge effects between the drivers.
Several times I found it difficult not to rear end people who braked at the same spot or later but wouldn´t carry the the same speed into the corner.

So, as stated above huge respect to the guys who race closely with way faster and much more complicated machines

geek: the number of dials on the wheel )

 

[KFMaster]

Thanks Markus for organizing the race!

This was my second sim race, I feel I have made some improvement. At two points in the race I was actually following and catching up to some other cars! Until I got over zealous with throttle in an effort to get closer, in both cases!

I am pretty sure I didn't contribute to any first corner fups, but some how I lost my replay recording for the race so couldn't verify. But for the second start, from the pole position, I was amazed I got through the first corner by myself without being swallowed by cars left and right -- at least that was how I remembered.

It was great fun, and intense. It really got me during quali when I spun off track. I tried to teleport back to the pit to restart with a warm tire, it wouldn't work. From there it just went down hill. I didn't think a sim race could get me so unsettled!

I spent some time watching the practice recording of the fast drivers in our group. What you guys were doing with the car is completely mazing. Kudos to you all!

 

[KFMaster]

For our next race, I see two tracks in download section:

Baku City Circuit 2022 / Azerbaijan GP 1.0 and​

baku_16 1.6​

Which one would we be using?

 

[abecede]

Probably the 2022 one. But it has serious issues with the pits

 

[stigs2cousin]

Bäh, Baku, not a nice track to drive on

Our race directory will make the right decision (and have to live with the complaining )

I'm just now whatching F1 Albert Park, seems like "the pros" have butchered it this time' too

I probably can't yell at us Crash kids for a while after this real life "cluster****(TM)"

 

[gearwhine]

Probably the 2022 one. But it has serious issues with the pits

Yes, i noticed the pit problem. If you drive in, there is no designated red box. Maybe no pit stops on 25min race? Wouldn't that work?

 

[abecede]

Yeah, it's a double race evening anyway, and we don't need the pitstops. but may raise a problem for false starts or if someone needs to do a pit stop. I'll check it out this week. Luckily we still have some time until Thursday, the 27th.

 

[RasmusP]

I made a track map with track boundaries for AlbertPark since I could not find one. For those who use MoTeC i2, let me know if you would like to have it.

View attachment 650271

I'd like to have it in my collection
Thanks for taking the time to carefully drive 2 full laps around the edges!

Quite good!!


View attachment 650272

I usually just update the map in Content Manager using
Content -> Tracks -> click track in list -> Update map.
Works very nicely tbh.
View attachment 650363

I hope everyone found out by now that the Motec track map was created by driving slowly at the edges of the track to generate it from the actual track

Nice trick in CM though! Saved this in my AC OneNote.

Ah, cool, I hope this updates the track position map. Currently my track position map has wrong track length, so it is not showing the right location of the car on the track when I move my cursor. But I won't mess with it until after the race -- this MoTeC is kinda finicky until know better what I doing with it.

Yeah I just never bother to create the track borders in Motec. You just get a faster driver to send you his telemetry and compare the lines relatively instead of absolutely to the track edges

A general advice: You can't save or "go back" in Motec. If you screw up your layout, it's screwed up for good.
So once you have a nice layout, save it as a second workspace. I have like 30 workspaces...

I don’t mind a second or so, but it gets a bit over whelming when you are in the 10 second area.
But it makes it more interesting, as it gives a window into why some of our aliens are so fast.
Some where there are obvious gains and loses that are much easier to see, a second is very difficult, but many seconds high light were the differences are.
So I will be recording tonight’s race with interest in seeing “visually” where they gain time.
If I find something obvious I will post my finding here, it may help someone, you never know.
My next move will be to suggest they are all put into the skippy, whilst we all stay in the Agile.

I am miffed, I am having to practice for this circuit, a lot, I have discovered everything is happening so quickly, I am getting overwhelmed with it all. Thank heavens we are not in an F1 car.

Yeah driving casually around a track with an F1 car is one thing. Pushing it competitively to the limit is a whole other thing!
When I practiced Bahrain to check your setup, it took about 50 laps until I beat your time. And I know that track quite well in a GT3!

That video/graphics quality, camera angle and the sound+looks of this car give me huge Trackmania vibes, lol

Your'e spot on there Steve, braking on a dirt bike has to be VERY gentle and controlled as wrapping yourself around a tree is not an option. (i have had the broken bones to prove it).

I'm definitely in the slow in, Captain Slowish out group and watching how Fulvio and the like get traction out of corners is a mystery to me.

Likewise the top class sportsmen in any field make it look so easy.

Just some random facts dropping:
It's all about using the maximum of the friction circle. If you don't know about the friction circle:
The trick is that friction works like vector addition, not "simple" addition. Meaning you don't calculate:
80% braking + 19% braking = 99% overall with 1% spare to slide off

Nope, you need to do it with sinus and cosinus:

So if you're at 80% of the maximum possible deceleration the tyre can handle, you can still steer 60% of the maximum lateral force the tyre can handle!

So a small difference in steering/brake/throttle makes a huge difference!

You go 20% off the brakes and can turn 60%! Compared to 100% brakes + 0% turning.


Long story short, you can display the G-force measurements in Motec.

I got telemetry from a very fast driver in ACC and compared Kyalami T1 to myself.
Important to note: GT3 cars can brake to the maximum of tyres but they don't have enough power to push the tyres to the maximum after 1st gear. Also while braking, all 4 tyres are loaded to their maximum thanks to ABS but while accelerating, only the rear tyres are pushing.
That's why you can ride the edge of the circle from 100% brakes to 100% steering to back on throttle but as soon as you stop steering, the G-Forces will become quite low.

Fast driver:

Me:

I lost 0.4s just in T1!

 

[RasmusP]

On a less theoretically note:
I really dislike the vacuum cleaner sound of the F-Agile. In fact I'd say my vacuum cleaner sounds more aggressive, lol.

So the map thingy from Markus reminded me of the "Replace sound" function of CM!
I tried a bunch of different sounds and so far I like the "Ferrari 330 P4" by far the most!

Sound swaps don't cause issues online, since it doesn't change the data.acd file of the car.

Here's a little demo of with the new sound with some crappy driving to show all possible sounds

 

[stigs2cousin]

Nice writeup Rasmus, its al well explained.

BUT, its not complete.

The friction circle as described can't explain why single wheels locker and slide.

Let's say we brake into T1 and the inner front locks up

Which physics Problem and which in car setting are to blame?

 

[RasmusP]

Nice writeup Rasmus, its al well explained.

BUT, its not complete.

The friction circle as described can't explain why single wheels locker and slide.

Let's say we brake into T1 and the inner front locks up

Which physics Problem and which in car setting are to blame?

Hehe yeah that's due to bumps and load distribution and very difficult to balance out.
For the inner front wheel while trailbraking:
The friction circle gets bigger and smaller depending on the load on the tyre. And that's not linear either.

So if you have the same size of the circle while rolling in a straight line and then turn in, the outside tyres get significantly more grip than the inside tyres. But it's an exponential curve.

But the brake pressures remain identical, which is why per-wheel-ABS is such a massive advantage.

And of course the brake bias is not dynamic either, so you need to balance front lockups and rear lockups throughout a braking zone.

 

[gearwhine]

Hey guys, all this science is baffling me and i am getting Brain overload with all the variables. Can't we just try to drive them by the seat of our pants anymore?

 

[RasmusP]

Hey guys, all this science is baffling me and i am getting Brain overload with all the variables. Can't we just try to drive them by the seat of our pants anymore?

Hehe yeah the only important bits to take away from all the theory is that:
1. A tiny bit less braking or throttle allows for quite a lot of steering. And a tiny bit less steering allows for a lot of acceleration/deceleration.

2. Lifting the brakes while turning in and going back on the throttle while opening the steering needs to be done "in sync". Like riding the edge of the circle.

Important here:
It's a circle, not a straight line. So the mix of "same steering as braking" is not
"50% braking + 50% steering".
It's
"100% braking * sin(45°) = 100% steering * cos (45°)",
which results in about 70% of both, not 50%!

3. You can check how bad you are by looking at the G-Meter in Motec.
If it's rounded like in the screenshot of the "fast guy", you're great. If it's a straight line like in my data, you suck

 

[stigs2cousin]

Of course you can, Steve

I personally like to waffle about this things for two reasons:
it can be part of my job and most customers react like you, they just wing it by "seat of the pants feel" for which I´m not talented enough

And second it helps me understand the "car" better because sliding around by "seat of the pants" works intuitively with my irl cars, but not in the sim because lack of GForces, tyre movement und suspension squat

 

[RasmusP]

I personally like to waffle about this things for two reasons:
it can be part of my job and most customers react like you, they just wing it by "seat of the pants feel" for which I´m not talented enough

Yeah I definitely drive by "Cells of Brain" instead of "Seat of Pants"

Doing laps is just practicing to get my body to do what my brain wants.
Definitely not going faster by intuition...

 

[KFMaster]

I'd like to have it in my collection
Thanks for taking the time to carefully drive 2 full laps around the edges!

Hi Rasmus,

You got it. See your inbox.

Did you have to do some math function to get the g-force circle plot? I don't seem to have any g-force data channel.

A general advice: You can't save or "go back" in Motec. If you screw up your layout, it's screwed up for good.
So once you have a nice layout, save it as a second workspace. I have like 30 workspaces...

Are you using SVN or something? How do you keep 30 or them straight
Since MoTeC has this book/sheet concept and very easy to move them around, I just create a "sandbox" book, make new sheets in there. Once a sheet is good to use, I move it to the "active analysis" book.

Dai

 

[RasmusP]

Thanks for the PM Gonna grab it tonight!

Did you have to do some math function to get the g-force circle plot? I don't seem to have any g-force data channel.

ACTI logs the G-LAT & G-LON channels iirc Not sure if they are math or raw channels though. I didn't have to do anything in any case.
But maybe the base workspace from ACTI had it already. I only customized that one.

Are you using SVN or something? How do you keep 30 or them straight
Since MoTeC has this book/sheet concept and very easy to move them around, I just create a "sandbox" book, make new sheets in there. Once a sheet is good to use, I move it to the "active analysis" book.

Hehe no, just lots of iterations of the same stuff.
But I have 2 AC, 2 rF2 and 2 ACC workspaces plus my custom versions of each one.

I do it the same way you're describing. Copying one workspace as base and then working on it.
But if I like the result, I just save it as _2 instead of keeping one original and one sandbox

 

[stigs2cousin]

In Z1Analyzer these things are called scatterplots, you just plot Gforces for braking/accelerating/steering.

The accelerating part is not "well rounded" with the Mazdas.