PC1 Reaction to the newer builds

[Randy Winston]

I have been avoiding pCARS for a while, because of problems with input lag and laggy graphics at the lowest settings. I decided to give it another try this evening as I had nothing to do. I'm glad I did, as it is massively improved since I last tried it a couple of months ago. I think some fine tuning with regards to my ffb settings and this could be great fun. I'm looking forward to this game, mostly on the consoles, because if there isn't going to be modding, I'd rather have it on there anyway. So to the detractors, I urge you to give it another shot. They are getting there.

 

[Adrian Britton]

I checked with pCARS and no one from WMD has said pCARS is going to crap all over RF2. Therefore that must be a lie.

This was posted on an rfactor 2 announcement page, before the beta was released.

I dont lie, there is no need for me to lie.

My rant is that all the cars feel the same, turn the same. An have that same strange "Bumper car" feel, (like the ones you get at a fairground) Shift 2 and the rest of the need for speed feel the same. (an by the looks of it, "Test Drive Ferrari racing legends" does too)

I have no real grumble with pcars (as an arcade game) it looks shiny and pretty but the feel of it is crazy, plus the more programs that are added to the main engine to make it feel more life like, the more the program will slow down.
As the main engine is running to one set of rules and the additional programs are telling the engine to run in a different set of rules.

You can either take a basic program and add more and more additional programs to it, slap a load of pretty skins on everything and hope everyones system will cope with the work load and all the mixed cross referencing.

Or you can work from the inside out, get the handling/physics right first and all running on one set of base rules then allow the additional programs to run alongside it.

I would rather have a sim/drive a car that is different every lap and feels like its moving about.

Then run an arcade game that is the same everytime/every lap and feels like its running on rails.

So...
No matter how much they add to pcars or say they are going to make it feel as real as life in the FUTURE.
I cant see that happening as you would have to scrap the whole engine and start again to make a pc sim out of pcars.


But hey im just a dude that likes driving sims, I am sure pcars will sell and make lots of money for them but it will never be a sim. (in my eyes)

 

[Kazumi]

Or you can work from the inside out, get the handling/physics right first and all running on one set of base rules then allow the additional programs to run alongside it.

I would rather have a sim/drive a car that is different every lap and feels like its moving about.

Then run an arcade game that is the same everytime/every lap and feels like its running on rails.

So...
No matter how much they add to pcars or say they are going to make it feel as real as life in the FUTURE.
I cant see that happening as you would have to scrap the whole engine and start again to make a pc sim out of pcars.


But hey im just a dude that likes driving sims, I am sure pcars will sell and make lots of money for them but it will never be a sim. (in my eyes)

There is no one stopping anyone to "work from inside out" with the current physics engine though. In fact there are always improvements just look at rFactor 2005 and now 2011 - 2012 GSC. Some people who disliked rF around 2005 certainly wouldn't expected that

SMS had build those 3 games hopefully to their liking for that style of games, and successfully eliminated some of the over- and understeer inherent to cars.

They also do that I guess. No idea how old the oldest physics asset in pCars is. Not that old is bad, but I doubt it is or were modular by any means. If it isn't modular then you are right from all I know (I'm not a programmer so...) adding stuff only works this and that far and it's more likely to run into problems.

 

[Kjell Eilertsen]

I try to follow these threads and forums because I´m interested in pCARS and unlike "some others" I have a faint hope that it will turn out to be a great sim (I do agree that the physics feels very arcade like atm, but I think that can change).
But, it´s getting really tedious coming here trying to read up on something interesting just to see David and a couple of others beating the same dead horse in every thread and taking the threads completely offtopic!
If you don´t like it, stop polluting the forums and spend your time on something better please! Or are you here like a religious fanatic trying to convert every RD member with your "facts" to make sure noone likes this game just because YOU don´t?

To the admins and mods and other sensible people; sorry for the rant, it´s just starting to annoy the heck out of me... ><

 

[Adrian Britton]

The difference to me is race time.

I can run Pcars and become bored after half an hour.

Yesterday, I lost a full day on rfactor 2 driving the 60's mod around croft.

The only reason I say what I say, is that the market is becoming saturated with these same arcade games that do nothing but take peoples money and promise the world but never deliver.

 

[David Ignjatovic]

David and a couple of others beating the same dead horse in every thread and taking the threads completely offtopic!
If

Sorry you have a dictatorial mentality, but I'm of the view that we should just be able to discuss this normally, yet it's ALWAYS the pcars fans who plead/nudge for moderation.
Can't say I know of you or anything you write, but if I found it boring I'd ignore it, or if I found it factually in error I might correct it, but I never call for moderation as I trust people to render an appropriate judgement based on the facts, but anyone can speculate, though even that seems too much for you.

 

[Kjell Eilertsen]

I'm not a pCars fan and the only moderation I was calling for was from yourself and the others doing the same.
I've nothing personal against you and I'm pretty sure you possess a ton more knowledge about sims than I do, but it's tedious to try keep up with what's happening with this game in these forums when every thread is being derailed into some fanboy vs sceptic flamewar completely off topic.
If you don't like the game in its current state and have no hope it'll change into a proper sim, why do you keep lurking in these forums? I've read some of your post in other sub forums here which I've found very good and informative, so I know you can contribute. In here, not so much.

 

[David Ignjatovic]

If you don't like the game in its current state and have no hope it'll change into a proper sim, why do you keep lurking in these forums? .

I think it's unlikely, but I could end up being wrong, but the reality is I post when and where I feel appropriate, just as you do.

 

[Adrian Britton]

A fair point Kjell
I dont mean to troll or anything.
If it looks that way, I am sorry.

I will close the door behind myself

 

[Ryan Vickery]

This was posted on an rfactor 2 announcement page, before the beta was released.

I dont lie, there is no need for me to lie.

My rant is that all the cars feel the same, turn the same. An have that same strange "Bumper car" feel, (like the ones you get at a fairground) Shift 2 and the rest of the need for speed feel the same. (an by the looks of it, "Test Drive Ferrari racing legends" does too)

I have no real grumble with pcars (as an arcade game) it looks shiny and pretty but the feel of it is crazy, plus the more programs that are added to the main engine to make it feel more life like, the more the program will slow down.
As the main engine is running to one set of rules and the additional programs are telling the engine to run in a different set of rules.

You can either take a basic program and add more and more additional programs to it, slap a load of pretty skins on everything and hope everyones system will cope with the work load and all the mixed cross referencing.

Or you can work from the inside out, get the handling/physics right first and all running on one set of base rules then allow the additional programs to run alongside it.

I would rather have a sim/drive a car that is different every lap and feels like its moving about.

Then run an arcade game that is the same everytime/every lap and feels like its running on rails.

So...
No matter how much they add to pcars or say they are going to make it feel as real as life in the FUTURE.
I cant see that happening as you would have to scrap the whole engine and start again to make a pc sim out of pcars.


But hey im just a dude that likes driving sims, I am sure pcars will sell and make lots of money for them but it will never be a sim. (in my eyes)

(This is not all pointed at you but a generalisation of the community)

This to me speaks of someone who is posting based on having played an early build of Project CARS, because Project CARS feels nothing remotely at all like Shift 2. I hated Shift 2 and thought it was junk, I also felt the same about pCARS when it first came out, but after leaving it for a few months I came back to find that all those issues had been fixed and the physics were in a good place, with much more to come.

CARS is already well on the way to being a good PC sim, a few performance numbers adjusted and it already is a quality PC sim in this build. I play Netkar, iRacing, Rfactor, Rfactor 2 beta, Simraceway, Ferrari Virtual Academy, GTR 2, GT5 and a couple more, and to me the current latest build of Project CARS is really getting there, it is certaintly far better a sim than GT5 ever was.

Project CARS has harboured a massive ammount of hate and dislike due to its connection with the widely disapointing Shift 2 and its developers and also due to the early first impressions people have of the game, but really It is unjustified when the Project CARS of today is a completely different game to that early release.

People should be supporting game developers who are wanting to make the games we want, not shitting on them with malice. It shows how our community is as a whole when new games trying to emmerge in the genre has armies of sim racers writing them off in massive turd throwing contests before they even hit the shelves

If you go to the WMD forums you will see a lot of mixed views as expected, but the general Idea is that they are working towards making this a real quality sim and a quality game, and if you follow the builds you can see that is definitely happening. Too many people played the first early build and decided it was a finished product, and to this day use that as ammunition to throw turd at others who can actually see some potential.


If we go back to Sim games, I personally think that iRacing while great is more of the "accurate numbers" simulator rather than the most realistic driving simulator. I think that Rfactor 2 is rough as hell for the most part at the moment and the majority of Rfactor 1 content is even rougher. I think that SimRaceway is where somebody finally made some good content for Rfactor (that to me feels more realistic than iRacing ever did) and I think that NetKar and Ferrari Virtual Academy are the most realistic and best feeling driving sims of the lot. Project CARS also gets points for being the first with a properly working clutch!

 

[Travis]

I think that NetKar and Ferrari Virtual Academy are the most realistic and best feeling driving sims of the lot. Project CARS also gets points for being the first with a properly working clutch!

Hear, hear!

 

[Adrian Britton]

Ryan
If its not directed at me then why quote me!!!
the thread is called "Reaction to the newer builds", I am talking about July's build, (is that not new enough for you)

I choose not to support a developer any more, who throws games out into the market year after year, that look good but feel terrible.

The only selling point Pcars has, is that they are giving the racing community the cars and tracks they want to race.

PCars is like the xfactor of tv.
They are showing you all how to make miilions by letting you choose what goes in it.

(Slams door behind myself)
I am not trolling with this post, just replying.

 

[Ryan Vickery]

Ryan
If its not directed at me then why quote me!!!
the thread is called "Reaction to the newer builds", I am talking about July's build, (is that not new enough for you)

I choose not to support a developer any more, who throws games out into the market year after year, that look good but feel terrible.

The only selling point Pcars has, is that they are giving the racing community the cars and tracks they want to race.

PCars is like the xfactor of tv.
They are showing you all how to make miilions by letting you choose what goes in it.

(Slams door behind myself)
I am not trolling with this post, just replying.

I quoted you because the start of my post was about you, then I went on a bit of a ramble. Anyway, the bit about them putting out games year after year, I'm pretty sure that is why they wanted to get away from having a publisher so that they could make the game they wanted. EA were behind Shift 2 and we all know that they are the type of publishers who want the game out yesterday with a sequal out tomorrow.

To me, the work they have done on pcars already shows that whatever they did with not having a publisher is working, nobody is saying Project CARS is a perfect and absolutely realistic sim, but it's also a long way from being an arcade or even semi-sim. The main factor a lot of people forget is that it is still only mid development, and things (hopefully) are only going to get better.

With that said, I say that as someone who has swapped sides and very much likes project cars, and very much see's it as a hope for the future, It will certaintly be the most realistic sim to come to the consoles, which will definitely mean that both the Gran Turismo and Forza guys have a lot of work to do and that can only be a good thing for those titles too.

 

[Kazumi]

Project CARS has harboured a massive ammount of hate and dislike due to its connection with the widely disapointing Shift 2 and its developers and also due to the early first impressions people have of the game, but really It is unjustified when the Project CARS of today is a completely different game to that early release.

Most people at least here and 1 or 2 other forums I followed judged pCars based on pCars, and obviously some of the core sim features weren't working as expected, that do work in every sim even did in some in pre-alpha state. (and once having not 100% convincing FFB, steering lock and turn-in everything else will feel flawed even if it isn't)

People should be supporting game developers who are wanting to make the games we want, not shitting on them with malice. It shows how our community is as a whole when new games trying to emmerge in the genre has armies of sim racers writing them off in massive turd throwing contests before they even hit the shelves

- Then who said they don't want to let SMS make that kinda racing game we all want? No one did said that, just the ones who really got disappointed by pCars. Why ridicule the reasons for their disappointment when they exist?

- I do agree with all the potential SMS got as a developer. But again if you exclude those who got disappointed by pCars who wants that this project really fails? I think the genre can need all variety and quality, and a slightly different approach to Gran Turismo and the others between the "sterile" sim and arcade on the other hand. On the third hand (wait ) currently it still looks (and actually is) unfinished with race cars on one hand, but no full race events on the other hand. What perfectly fits a racing game like the Shift series is not something "we" want in that kind of racing game that we all want. The issue with that is that in the latter you need accurately recreated cars, while in the former you can compromise handling to fit the style of the game. In that case there isn't really a middle way (at least I don't see one)

 

[Micas_WMD]

This was posted on an rfactor 2 announcement page, before the beta was released.

I dont lie, there is no need for me to lie.

I see there is a new thread that is a copy of the "banned for no reason thread". Nice!

Actually, what I said was that pCARS was going to "crush" rF2 and AC, not "crap" on it. You also removed all the context from my comment. So, I wonder if your changing the word from "crush" to "crap" constitutes lying? Hmm.. I'm not sure. If you want, I could link the post where I said that at WMD if you like. If you have WMD access, you could look for yourself.

Is it really that important to you that 1 person out of 18,302 active members said that pCARS was going to be a better game than rF2 and AC? I can write some more controversial things over at WMD if that will feed your anger if you like. I know, I could say the same thing again, only this time actually use the word "crap", and just like magic the assertions that you've been making would suddenly be true!

 

[Adrian Britton]

I see there is a new thread that is a copy of the "banned for no reason thread". Nice!

Actually, what I said was that pCARS was going to "crush" rF2 and AC, not "crap" on it. You also removed all the context from my comment. So, I wonder if your changing the word from "crush" to "crap" constitutes lying? Hmm.. I'm not sure. If you want, I could link the post where I said that at WMD if you like. If you have WMD access, you could look for yourself.

Is it really that important to you that 1 person out of 18,302 active members said that pCARS was going to be a better game than rF2 and AC? I can write some more controversial things over at WMD if that will feed your anger if you like. I know, I could say the same thing again, only this time actually use the word "crap", and just like magic the assertions that you've been making would suddenly be true!

What are you talking about?
The post I was talking about, was on RacingSimCentral news pages.
I would show you it, but they have changed the site and removed all comments.

An to be truthfull now, I dont care who said what and in what context it is or isnt in.
You can say what you like on WMD and I am sure you do and will.

RFactor 1 and 2 will always be used and will always be a sim.
Arcade games come and go like leafs in the wind, when one doesnt work or reaches max sales, another one is released.
So say what you like, I am sure in five years time you will be saying the same thing about PCars 5, an we will be telling you that RFactor 2 is still better.


So have fun on your arcade games im off to SIM

 

[David Ignjatovic]

I
Actually, what I said was that pCARS was going to "crush" rF2 and AC, not "crap" on it. !

LOL, I don't think pcars will do anything to even GTR2 from 2006, which IMO, has been left behind by GTR EVO, netkar, FVA, rf2, GSC2011/12.....well at least a sim vs sim contest.
Me, I want a good game first and foremost, we can worry about a proper sim in the future, but the main goal is to ensure that from an objective POV, pcars isn't a POS...

 

[Henk van der Meulen]

I may be one of a minority atm, but i'm enjoying pCars more than rF2 right now.
( It might be the other way round in the next build though)
rF2 FFb right now is awful, maybe just my controller setup but it feels like a bad implementation of Realfeel right now.
Not all cars feel okayish in pCars right now but the Lotus and Caterhan feel better than the rF2 cars.
And dare I say it, provide me with more of a challenge than the 1960's rF2 cars.
(can't be bothered about the others, they feel c**p in both)
A syntesis of RF2, Pcars and Netkar FFB would be a step in the right direction

Sadly none of these have as yet incorporated hysterisis in their physiscs afaik
that says enough.
It's one of the major components in tyre physics and it's left out.
Hysterisis and pneumatic trail.
And if I'm correct only Netkar calculates the last.

I'd happily be proved wrong in this.

 

[DrJustice]

...
A syntesis of RF2, Pcars and Netkar FFB would be a step in the right direction

Sadly none of these have as yet incorporated hysterisis in their physiscs afaik
that says enough.
It's one of the major components in tyre physics and it's left out.
Hysterisis and pneumatic trail.
And if I'm correct only Netkar calculates the last.

pCARS currently has pneumatic trail and mechanical trail as components of the Mz signal (aligning moment). Since the FFB is fully modular and tweakable per car, the various forces can be experimented with (tweaking guide here, and related discussion here). The FFB details may change with the upcoming tire model - very exciting stuff to look forward to there!

Re. hysteresis, perhaps you should raise the issue on WMD, maybe in A.J.s thread? I'd like to learn more about that.

Oh, and I'm also enjoying the Caterham Classic - not bad, and it'll get even better

 

[Henk van der Meulen]

Oh, and I'm also enjoying the Caterham Classic - not bad, and it'll get even better

Haven't tried it yet
.Just enjoying myself on the California highway with the caterhams.
I already posted something about the hysterisis btw, might try the official thread at WMD.
One of the benefits would be a connection to the road even when driving over smooth tarmac.
Realfeel f,i, modelled suspension deflection but if the track didn't have any bumps etc added it felt lifeless until some strong forces buit up.
IRL of course you can even sense the difference between a dry, damp or wet roadsurface when driving straight.
Of course the ability to perceive differs alot between people.
Which accounts for those raving about this or that sim whilst other can't be bothered.
What does astound me though is the inability of many to perceive that their perception is lacking. Especially if they disagree with me LOL

Good to know btw. that they have those trail components in. Might have to read up a bit more on the physics .
Hope the collision physics receives an update soon as well but that's another discussion.

 

[Super Koala]

I can't resist this. I have revoked my membership of RD this morning but while I can still post, I will.

I'm very interested in the 49 cosworth. There is something right about this car even if it is in a temporary physics state. I realise that the tyre model is wip. I saw a thing on youtube with Martin Brundle driving, I think No5. It looked right to the model and I noticed how he held off before he reckoned it was ok to put his foot down. Which he did very carefully I thought.

I like the 78 and 98T also both feel there is a bit more to do there. I think these three alone are worth my 25 euros.

It would be great if we could get Martin to give us an opinion on the 49 but I don't know if he's into the games. Maybe I could check on the social media or something.