Podium DD's VS Simucube 2's

[Darren Byrne]

Hi guys, the past while I was trying to find good comparisons between these two models of dd's. Has anyone tested both ? I understand that the software for these aren't complete yet but is there any clear winner here ? thanks.

 

[Glaniu]

So I guess your thumbs are made out of forged steel? lol.
I'm not worried about USB cables when I use an E-stop.
I use coiled cables with DIM connector on the wheel but a loose USB on the hub, so if the wheel goes nuts, the cable will just slide out of the USB port.
I'm more worried about my hands than I am a $20 cable.

If the button saves your hands in case the steering wheel has a life of its own then congratulations reflex! . In that case you do not need this button any more ;-)

 

[klh]

I don’t get this. The SC2 website outlines that Ultimate has differences besides max force, and that there are more controls in software. That’s what $1400 more over Pro gets you besides a extra 7 Nm. Consumer makes a choice. Nothing seems underhanded there as you imply.

Do I wish Sport and Pro had same controls. Sure, but I don’t think I’m missing them and they are not worth the extra $1400 to me.

Why doesn’t DD1 come with e-stop? That’s an odd one to me for a 20Nm base.

Hey Lee,

It seems to me the website says "more details" on some of the filters for the Ultimate.
But for example the "gamma" filter is not available at all on the "pro" model. It does not fall in the mentioned categories either, as well as being a simple, well-known filter. Not so obvious, not stated anywhere that I see & definitely not so "pro", imho.

I actually did examine this as I could back when I purchased & saw some posts that the "sport" model would be lacking filters, not the "pro", which made sense from a naming perspective, so I went ahead. Had it been obvious for the "pro" as well to me back then, I would not be so annoyed now. It's like an "ahh, gotcha!" from a blind angle, by some "clever" sales person.

Please bear in mind it's not this one thing only that has thrown me off. There are more issues for me, both when it comes to the marketing sales & also from a performance pov. Might not matter to others.

Reg. DD1 and no e-stop, I agree it's a REALLY weird one to upsell on. A safety feature.. JFC... Not liking that one. But at least it seems Fanatec has made it very obvious in the sales material. Not saying I like it still.

My reason for posting was not to complain, rather to find a new wheel base. I did mention my issues & maybe it would have been simpler not to. The reason for posting those was to add what I would like in a new wheel base & the place I buy it from.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

@klm, you sound like a guy who really appreciate tunability aspect of the wheelbase.
Have you looked at AF, there is nothing on the market that allows level of control over FFB/telemetry signal that SimCommander does. But it is a stepper motor and a bit down on power, so not all is peachy.

 

[klh]

@klm, you sound like a guy who really appreciate tunability aspect of the wheelbase.
Have you looked at AF, there is nothing on the market that allows level of control over FFB/telemetry signal that SimCommander does. But it is a stepper motor and a bit down on power, so not all is peachy.

Hey Andrew,

Appreciate your new style of response!

I do, you are right. Specially if I can make adjustments to cater for various weaknesses in either game or wheel base.

I think I would jump at it if it wasn't for the fact I live in Europe, so it's that or a DD1 at comparable prices.
As far as I can tell fanalabs got quite a lot going for it settings wise as well, and then ganatec benefits from generally good game support.

Thanks for being constructive, much appreciated!

 

[Deleted member 197115]

I think each and every response to your post here or on GD from me or other users was genuinely constructive.
If it was something you didn't want to hear is different matter.

 

[klh]

I think each and every response to your post here or on GD from me or other users was genuinely constructive.
If it was something you didn't want to hear is different matter.

Hehe,
OK, we all have a different way of expressing ourselves and understanding others.
Not saying my way is better.

 

[TedBrosby-]

If the button saves your hands in case the steering wheel has a life of its own then congratulations reflex! . In that case you do not need this button any more ;-)

I place it where I can hit it with my knee. And with my OSW I had a situation where I needed to hit it fast.

 

[avenger82]

I did bring it up, but no idea if it's something they will do(the input scale).

Reg downgrade, would it be?

But was the problem even confirmed?

The issue is that the output quality from the motor drops as I lower the NM on it, since this is by scaling the current. You specially feel this at the lower forces.

I don't think I understand what the issue is and how the Ultimate's software solves that.
Does anyone here confirm it and if so can explain it better?

 

[jamescarruthers]

I don't think I understand what the issue is and how the Ultimate's software solves that.
Does anyone here confirm it and if so explain it better?

The "issue" is that the overall strength slider scales the output — rather than acts as a maximum limit. So if you turn down the slider it lowers the smaller forces linearly with the large ones. @klh is saying that the gamma filter available on the Ultimate would help this by boosting the lower end.

It's not an issue if you run the overall strength on max — or turn the force feedback up in-game - which may depend on the game you're running.

 

[avenger82]

I presume that the gamma filter allows you to "boost" the low end — making smaller forces more noticeable.

Thanks. If it's only that then it's really not an issue for me. I don't want something to artificially boost low forces. It's something similar to a feature in Automoblilista 1 that I used with T300. But that was a needed compromise, because it outputs 3.5-3.9Nm max. In real life you don't get "normalized" forces where everything feels similar, but rather high dynamic range.

If anything I would rather have some filter that could prevent/limit very strong spikes that cause fast wheel spin with say more than 300 degrees rotation. This would be useful to avoid injuries when running high torque and e.g. someone hits you form behind, but at that moment you didn't expect that.
But I believe it would be really hard to implement without significantly disturbing other (valid) strong forces.
Perhaps it would eventually require some game dev support to detect impacts and limit such violent spikes for DD wheels.

 

[klh]

But was the problem even confirmed?

I don't think I understand what the issue is and how the Ultimate's software solves that.
Does anyone here confirm it and if so explain it better?

Hi Krzysztof,

1) It has been confirmed that there was a discussion if the force should be scaled on the input signal or by current to the motor, I have been told. The latter was picked & I am sure there are some ok reasons that way as well. I simply personally would prefer had it been the other way or that it was added as an advanced feature.

2) I am not sure how to explain the problem in other words. I feel that the low forces are not nearly as detailed/quick/great when:
* Lowering the output on the wheel base and keeping output low from the sims
as when
* Lowering output in the sims and keeping the wheel base output at 100% force.

This makes me stick the wheel base in 100% force setting.

But the Ultimate has the same issue, which is why I would never consider that wheel base at a price like that. Since the solution (the input signal scale or an input limiter) should be a very simple thing to add, I would have been REALLY annoyed until it would be 8)

So the ultimate software does not solve it, but the ultimate does have the gamma filter(the filter that you don't know you don't get when you buy a "not-so-pro" or "sport"), so at least you can boost the low forces that otherwise become too weak if you go lower on the output setting in the TrueDrive settings.

There is an additional advantage to having the gamma filter on the wheel base: That it is added optimally as compared to the other filters used in TrueDrive.
If you own a "pro" or "sport" & if you want to use various "non-linear"/"lfb" settings in various games, then the SC2 filters are all added on top of a non-linear signal from the sim. Prob. not optimal for all filters.

I am sure most people would not care about this last one, but it is yet another disadvantage to the "pro" and "sport", that you have no idea about until you find these things out, over time. The current shortcomings play together in a bad way on sport & pro, imho.

I expected a strong focus on quality output, and also that simple features, like a "gamma filter" would not be excluded from a "pro" model, without any mention that I have seen. To me other filters are just fine, but the most important ones: Force level & Reconstruction filter(not going in to the details on this one too, it's enough already) are not to my liking.

I will add that Granite has said multiple times that they consider simplifying & removing direct adjustments to filters to make the devices even more accessible. So far, luckily, the filters have only been moved to an "advanced" section of the UI, but it is implied these direct dials could be fully removed. At any point in time, for all I know. As a power/detailed user, when I have a great hardware unit, I would like the software not to hold it back, but instead have a clear idea it would only get better. But to me the software does exactly just that on the SC2 models right now & I have no indication it will get any better.

This is all only my personal opinions. As you can see others greatly disagree & I am not saying I am "correct" in what I want.

My posting here was not to bash anything, NOTHING is perfect, not any competing product either, but rather to get advice on which DD wheel bases to consider for the switch, knowing what I am looking for and not wanting.

I tried to explain it in a slightly different way, hopefully it helps you understand better what I mean.

 

[klh]

Thanks. If it's only that then it's really not an issue for me. I don't want something to artificially boost low forces. It's something similar to a feature in Automoblilista 1 that I used with T300. But that was a needed compromise, because it outputs 3.5-3.9Nm max. In real life you don't get "normalized" forces where everything feels similar, but rather high dynamic range.

If anything I would rather have some filter that could prevent/limit very strong spikes that cause fast wheel spin with say more than 300 degrees rotation. This would be useful to avoid injuries when run high torque and e.g. someone hits you form behind, but at that moment you didn't expect that.
But I believe it would be really hard to implement without significantly disturbing other (valid) strong forces.
Perhaps it would eventually require some game dev support to detect impacts and limit such violent spikes for DD wheels.

Right, that last filter you ask for is exactly what would help me too. That or preferably a scale on input.

It would save my hands from injury in iracing, for example, while still running the base at 100% force out.

When dealing with iracing I think the scaling of input(down) in TrueDrive settings would be simpler, since there would not be both a "limiter" in iceracing as well as in TrueDrive.

 

[LeeHetherington]

You can scale iRacing output which is the same as scaling TD input in this case. Those two would be back to back. Increasing Max Force in iRacing scales its output down effectively (as well as increases the clipping threshold). I don’t see what adding TD input scaling does for you in this case.

Gamma sounds like what you want so that scaling down big things does not cause you to lose the small things.

Otherwise, maybe you want to separate out scaling from clipping in TD? Not sure how feasible that is. The two are really intertwined (like iRacing max force).

It seems like what you need is independent gain control over different effects, but not possible with iRacing because it is just a single FFB signal (0-100%).

 

[klh]

You can scale iRacing output which is the same as scaling TD input in this case. Those two would be back to back. Increasing Max Force in iRacing scales its output down effectively (as well as increases the clipping threshold). I don’t see what adding TD input scaling does for you in this case.

Gamma sounds like what you want so that scaling down big things does not cause you to lose the small things.

Otherwise, maybe you want to separate out scaling from clipping in TD? Not sure how feasible that is. The two are really intertwined (like iRacing max force).

It seems like what you need is independent gain control over different effects, but not possible with iRacing because it is just a single FFB signal (0-100%).

It's not quite right.
Iceracing always outputs ffb 0-100%, no matter max force setting.

The only place to limit would be on the wheel base or by some other software/device in between.

Scaling down max force in ice to say 50nm, produces 100% output when in game calculation hit 50nm or above.

To get best output from SC2 it needs to run at 100% force out.

So both the limit and input scale would be required, at best, imo.

The input scale would make it possible to map the max 50nm(100% output from ice) to whatever NM I would want from the wheel base, while still retain best quality.

 

[LeeHetherington]

True, but it effectively scales down the smaller 5Nm forces as you increase max force. It also makes it less likely iRacing would hit a higher max force threshold.

I haven’t really noticed a difference running max force 60 and TD at 100% vs max force at 30 and TD at 50%. The latter would limit output but more prone to clip. Limiting and clipping go hand in hand no matter where applied. Both would scale 5Nm game forces the same (50%). Apparently you notice the difference.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

The "issue" is that the overall strength slider scales the output — rather than acts as a maximum limit. So if you turn down the slider it lowers the smaller forces linearly with the large ones.

The current implementation is exactly maximum limit (Motor Continuous Current parameter)

 

[avenger82]

1) It has been confirmed that there was a discussion if the force should be scaled on the input signal or by current to the motor, I have been told. The latter was picked & I am sure there are some ok reasons that way as well. I simply personally would prefer had it been the other way or that it was added as an advanced feature.

I don't understand this. Input signal I understand as something that comes from a game/Microsoft FFB API. And if a wheel driver wants to scale up/boost low forces it always needs to increase current to the motor.

Can you please give a link to this discussion?

I am not sure how to explain the problem in other words. I feel that the low forces are not nearly as detailed/quick/great when:
* Lowering the output on the wheel base and keeping output low from the sims
as when
* Lowering output in the sims and keeping the wheel base output at 100% force.

If you lower max force to, say 10Nm in the TD, does it scale down all the forces as if you'd set it to 25Nm in TD and then limit to 40% in game(other than iRacing)? I don't think that's how it works in wheel drivers, so in order to avoid clipping people lower max force/gain in game (I think scaling all forces down) but leave It high/max in the driver.
I think if you set max force in game, but limit in the driver to say 9Nm or set it to 32Nm (on the Ultimate), then low forces should feel exactly the same.

 

[klh]

I don't understand this. Input signal I understand as something that comes from a game/Microsoft FFB API. And if a wheel driver wants to scale up/boost low forces it always needs to increase current to the motor.

Can you please give a link to this discussion?


If you lower max force to, say 10Nm in the TD, does it scale down all the forces as if you'd set it to 25Nm in TD and then limit to 40% in game(other than iRacing)? I don't think that's how it works in wheel drivers, so in order to avoid clipping people lower max force/gain in game (I think scaling all forces down) but leave It high/max in the driver.
I think if you set max force in game, but limit in the driver to say 9Nm or set it to 32Nm (on the Ultimate), then low forces should feel exactly the same.

1) I specifically mean scale down on the input signal only. Not boost.

2) Setting Max force in iceracing works different from how all other sims do these things. The short story is that Sc2 does not provide the required settings to keep maximum performance while also be able to adjust it to strength and limit that you are comfortable using. I would like that from any software that sits on top of a wheel base that is purchased to provide high fidelity and strong output. I would not buy an expensive, top end amplifier that sounds best when the instruments are low if I set it at 100% output if I could not buy a pre-amp.
Sorry, it's not how an amp works, but this IS the pre-amp missing.

 

[avenger82]

2) Setting Max force in iceracing works different from how all other sims do these things. The short story is that Sc2 does not provide the required settings to keep maximum performance while also be able to adjust it to strength and limit that you are comfortable using. I would like that from any software that sits on top of a wheel base that is purchased to provide high fidelity and strong output. I would not buy an expensive, top end amplifier that sounds best when the instruments are low if I set it at 100% output if I could not buy a pre-amp.

If I understand correctly the reason is that lowering max force in TD scales down all the forces, but should just limit max force and if needed cause hard clipping as in other wheels.
I agree it should be allowed in TD, but that conflicts with:

The current implementation is exactly maximum limit (Motor Continuous Current parameter)

 

[Deleted member 197115]

I am wondering if anyone can replicate your findings, I remember playing A LOT with scaling signal via different means, game FFB multiplier, MMos max force, MCC (max current) back in OSW days.
The result was always the same.
Can you post your settings, may be TD filters do not scale linearly and you just need to lower damping at lower TD gain. Also like in audio, small difference in overall gain (volume) will make it feel like there is more details.