Podium DD's VS Simucube 2's

[Darren Byrne]

Hi guys, the past while I was trying to find good comparisons between these two models of dd's. Has anyone tested both ? I understand that the software for these aren't complete yet but is there any clear winner here ? thanks.

 

[Fastard]

If you're in Europe, the DD1 is actually more expensive than the SC2 Sport. €1199 for DD1 versus €1029 for the SC2 Sport.

€1029 is the price of SC2 Sport without VAT and shipping.
1250 - 1300 is the final price of the unit.

 

[TedBrosby-]

Why do people keep saying only the SC2 is compatible with universal wheels? You can buy a Podium QR and mount any wheel you want to a Fanatec DD.

I guess you missed "out of box"?
SC2 Sport has a 70mm wheel hub in the box, included with it.
Fanatec out of the box is only compatible with Fanatec wheels. You have to buy the Podium Hub/Universal Hub (I also said that later in the same comment).

 

[Arkadiusz Wawrzyniak]

I will go with dd1 because I don't need many rims and it is much cheaper in here then SC. I will go with dd1 plus formula v2 rim bundle for 1790 euro with tax. It will be a big step over g27 anyway. Plus I can print Zring if needed with my brother in law. SC turns out to be way too expensive for now.

 

[Jivesauce]

I guess you missed "out of box"?
SC2 Sport has a 70mm wheel hub in the box, included with it.
Fanatec out of the box is only compatible with Fanatec wheels. You have to buy the Podium Hub/Universal Hub (I also said that later in the same comment).

I did not miss it, I guess it's more a misinterpretation of what "out of the box" means. I take that to mean the system has to modified in some way to work.

And you didn't say anything about the Podium Hub in that post, must have been an earlier one (edit: yes, I just went back and looked and you did say something in a previous post). You do make a reference to custom wheels being cheaper in the long run on SC2, which at least implies you can use custom wheels on the DD1. No worries, just wanted to make sure other people are clear that it can be done. My comment wasn't directed only at you, that's why I asked why "people kept saying it," not you, TedBrosby, said that; it has been said multiple times in this thread.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

So the Podium hub is just an adapter to mount regular rim, and you need one per rim at $200 plus shipping?

Podium Hub

The Podium Hub is the premium core component for the Fanatec® modular steering wheel system.

fanatec.com

Just curios why such a complexity, first you lock your system from working with non Fanatec wheels. And then (for extra charge) you provide customer with the solution to bypass that?
May be I am missing something.

But if I understand this right, you can get this hub, USB wheel plate like one from Ascher Racing and just bolt it to the hub, so you are not limited to Fanatec button clusters.

 

[Jivesauce]

So the Podium hub is just an adapter to mount regular rim, and you need one per rim at $200 plus shipping?

Podium Hub

The Podium Hub is the premium core component for the Fanatec® modular steering wheel system.

fanatec.com

Just curios why such a complexity, first you lock your system from working with non Fanatec wheels. And then (for extra charge) you provide customer with the solution to bypass that?
May be I am missing something.

But if I understand this right, you can get this hub, USB wheel plate like one from Ascher Racing and just bolt it to the hub, so you are not limited to Fanatec button clusters.

Yeah you’ve pretty much got it. Keep in mind that the Podium hub has the wireless transmitter and wireless power for their wheels integrated, so it is more complex electronically than what you expect from a simple QR, but yeah it is quite expensive.

I think it’s more a result of them launching their “modular” system where you can mix and match rims, shifters, QR, and button box to make the custom wheel you want rather than buy off the shelf stuff. So they really intend this to be used as a part of their complete wheel ecosystem, but a side benefit is allowing you to attach any other wheel or button box you wanted, just at a higher price than a simple QR would command since all the wireless functionality is kind of wasted with a 3rd party rim/plate. This is pure speculation on my part, but given their strategy so far, I would expect to see them release way more wheel components (rims, shifters, button boxes) in the future to try to compete with the boutique market. It seems to be what they’re positioning themselves to do with these early components.

And you’re exactly right, you could buy that hub, any rim you wanted, and an Ascher button plate and run the plate through USB.

 

[RCHeliguy]

My understanding was that the Podium Hub was required just so that the wheelbase would operate at all.

Basically it is an expensive dongle.

It does not have a place to plug in a USB wheel, and is useless for 3rd party wheels except to enable the wheelbase .

This is a bit of a technicality. The Fanatec solution is very good, but it is not wireless. It runs the wires through the drive shaft, which once again is a very good solution and does mean that you can disconnect your Fanatec wheel and connections are unplugged automatically.

 

[Glaniu]

Out-runner motor on DD1 vs in-runner motor on SC2 Sport (Point SC2)

why do you think the outrunner is worse than the inrunner?

Fanatec designed the motor for simracing only and it is an outrunner

 

[Jivesauce]

My understanding was that the Podium Hub was required just so that the wheelbase would operate at all.

Basically it is an expensive dongle.

It does not have a place to plug in a USB wheel, and is useless for 3rd party wheels except to enable the wheelbase .

Yeah I've heard that claim as well, but have no idea if it's true. I've never seen someone try it with the electronics removed or a different QR entirely.

This is a bit of a technicality. The Fanatec solution is very good, but it is not wireless. It runs the wires through the drive shaft, which once again is a very good solution and does mean that you can disconnect your Fanatec wheel and connections are unplugged automatically.

Absolutely true, but I'm not sure I see it as a meaningful distinction. It is effectively wireless in the way the term is used in sim racing; I have never seen someone try to call a Thrustmaster or Fanatec wheel a wired/cabled wheel before. I guess it would become more important to distinguish between those concepts if you had Bluetooth button plates that communicated directly with your PC completely independently of the base just to clearly market that the wheel would work no matter what base you had, but even on the SC2 Bluetooth solution the receiver is still in the wheelbase and all communication happens through it, right? You can't just get a Bluetooth wheel, Bluetooth receiver in your PC, and operate your wheel wirelessly independently of the base?

 

[RCHeliguy]

Yeah I've heard that claim as well, but have no idea if it's true. I've never seen someone try it with the electronics removed or a different QR entirely.



Absolutely true, but I'm not sure I see it as a meaningful distinction. It is effectively wireless in the way the term is used in sim racing; I have never seen someone try to call a Thrustmaster or Fanatec wheel a wired/cabled wheel before. I guess it would become more important to distinguish between those concepts if you had Bluetooth button plates that communicated directly with your PC completely independently of the base just to clearly market that the wheel would work no matter what base you had, but even on the SC2 Bluetooth solution the receiver is still in the wheelbase and all communication happens through it, right? You can't just get a Bluetooth wheel, Bluetooth receiver in your PC, and operate your wheel wirelessly independently of the base?

Fanatec Wheel bases won't work without a Fanatec wheel attached or a podium hub. You need one even if you are just using a bare wheel. Of which I use a 330 mm bare Momo wheel for Rally and that podium hub costs about as much as the rim I used.

I see wireless as in BT or even just Wireless USB as being a negative, so Fanatec actually gets extra points in my book for their implementation.

That said I've got one wheel with a USB wire and one I run bare and it has been no issue at all. I ABSOLUTELY have no interest in dealing with batteries, transmitters, receivers and eating up bandwidth at those frequencies. Lots of extra stuff to fail and you can't use an analog clutch and there are some limitations on switches etc.. So I see it as absolutely all downside and you pay extra money for that downside. It really is no biggie to unplug a wheel from time to time and I rarely do it anyway.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

why do you think the outrunner is worse than the inrunner?

Fanatec designed the motor for simracing only and it is an outrunner

Both work well, inrunner in general does not need active cooling.
Tommi explained in a bit more details how better cooling performance is achieved with inrunners.

 

[Jivesauce]

Fanatec Wheel bases won't work without a Fanatec wheel attached or a podium hub. You need one even if you are just using a bare wheel. Of which I use a 330 mm bare Momo wheel for Rally and that podium hub costs about as much as the rim I used.

I see wireless as in BT or even just Wireless USB as being a negative, so Fanatec actually gets extra points in my book for their implementation.

That said I've got one wheel with a USB wire and one I run bare and it has been no issue at all. I ABSOLUTELY have no interest in dealing with batteries, transmitters, receivers and eating up bandwidth at those frequencies. Lots of extra stuff to fail and you can't use an analog clutch and there are some limitations on switches etc.. So I see it as absolutely all downside and you pay extra money for that downside. It really is no biggie to unplug a wheel from time to time and I rarely do it anyway.

Oh yeah true, there is value in mentioning that it might be more reliable than a Bluetooth connection (and the lack of batteries). I prefer the Fanatec solution to that particular problem also.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

That said I've got one wheel with a USB wire and one I run bare and it has been no issue at all. I ABSOLUTELY have no interest in dealing with batteries, transmitters, receivers and eating up bandwidth at those frequencies. Lots of extra stuff to fail and you can't use an analog clutch and there are some limitations on switches etc.. So I see it as absolutely all downside and you pay extra money for that downside. It really is no biggie to unplug a wheel from time to time and I rarely do it anyway.

I have wired and SC2 wireless wheel at the moment and use them interchangeably, they perform equally well, with USB it's just a slight inconvenience of cord dangling between legs and risk of cord ripping out of socket and flipping around if the wheel goes out of control.
I've been a big opponent of SC2 BT solution myself, got it on sale from Tomo just to try out, and to my surprise it worked incredibly well, seamless auto handshake, 100% signal strength at all times, haven't had a single missed shift of button press since acquisition.
I remember a while back Tommi, Beano, or Mika, don't remember, mentioned that in high torque applications like this having physical plug and socket inside rotating shaft esp with not 100% solid QR is just asking for a trouble in a long term. Thus they opted for true wireless.

 

[Konnichy]

Do you have to switch the wheel on/off in addition to the base? How often does the wheel need a charge/battery replacement?

 

[RCHeliguy]

Oh yeah true, there is value in mentioning that it might be more reliable than a Bluetooth connection (and the lack of batteries). I prefer the Fanatec solution to that particular problem also.

The downside to their particular solution is that some people have broken pins on their Fanatec wheels which best case means sending the wheel back to Fanatec for repair. Worst case means there is a pin broken off inside your wheelbase that you can't remove and both the wheelbase and wheel go back to Fanatec for repair.

A coiled USB cable does depend on the implementation. Mine has very beefy metal connectors on both sides, but the wheel side would never be disconnected unless you needed to replace the cable.

 

[EsxPaul]

Do you have to switch the wheel on/off in addition to the base? How often does the wheel need a charge/battery replacement?

My wheel has a physical on/off switch but you don't really have to use it as it will auto sleep after a certain time. The battery life is stated as 3 years but I suspect it's more likely to last for a year or two at the most.

 

[RCHeliguy]

My wheel has a physical on/off switch but you don't really have to use it as it will auto sleep after a certain time. The battery life is stated as 3 years but I suspect it's more likely to last for a year or two at the most.

It may just be possible I'm completely over batteries and have an aversion to them after 8 years in RC Helis.
I have built 3 charging boxes and the last two I still can use.

I have a pile of batteries. The longer 12S sticks are about $200-$300 each. The individual batteries except the small ones are over $100 each. They are all just sitting around right now losing their ability to hold a charge.

 

[Konnichy]

My wheel has a physical on/off switch but you don't really have to use it as it will auto sleep after a certain time. The battery life is stated as 3 years but I suspect it's more likely to last for a year or two at the most.

Oh, even a year is negligible. I was afraid it would be a week or so...

 

[Deleted member 197115]

Both work well, inrunner in general does not need active cooling.
Tommi explained in a bit more details how better cooling performance is achieved with inrunners.

Actually Beano expanded a bit more on in-runner vs out-runner choice in the same thread.
Here's his post.

 

[TedBrosby-]

Actually Beano expanded a bit more on in-runner vs out-runner choice in the same thread.
Here's his post.

Beano’s explanation is great for explaining why Fanatec has a holding torque graph that shows when degradation occurs but I think he doesn’t explain why a company would use one over the other so I’ll attempt to explain that here.
Torque in Servo motors is generated by rotating mass about a rotational axis using speed and voltage. This rotation is accomplished through the polarity of magnets. Opposite charged magnets attract and like repel, so an array of +/- magnets around each other can generate axis rotation when they’re surrounded by a coil that’s being driven current.
There’s many ways to manipulate the force and increase torque, but one way is by increasing the lever arm by increasing the distance from the center.
Inrunner brushless motors like the small MIGE and SC2 have the magnets inside the stator on the inside of the motor, and the inner shaft rotates when current is driven through the outer coils. So think coils outside, magnets inside. Advantage? Coils get hot. Really hot. So by having coils on the outside there’s better cooling, in SC’s case passive even. Disadvantage? You need a larger Servo for more torque.
Outrunner basically achieves torque the same way, but with the opposite physical characteristics. The coils are located on the inside of the rotational axis (closer to x, y = 0) and the permanent magnets and stator is located outside. Current is driven through the coils on the inside and the stator and permanent magnets rotate around the coils. Basically the outside is spinning instead of the inside. Magnets outside, coils inside.
This offers a huge advantage if increasing the distance from the lever arm or rotating moment away from the center which means more torque for the same weight/size.
But this also means the heat generating component is located inside the motor. Unfortunately you’ll have to cool it. I would guess this is why DD1 is thicker and longer than a similarly powered SC2 Sport (More than likely a fan on the rear shell as an exhaust for heat from the spinning coils). And this is also maybe why Fanatec’s plans to use a physically weaker Servo motor for the DD1 were scrapped.
Because inrunners rotate the stator and magnets directly, they’re known for being easier to cool, and achieving higher RPM without a loss in accuracy for the same size and power output.