Podium DD's VS Simucube 2's

[Darren Byrne]

Hi guys, the past while I was trying to find good comparisons between these two models of dd's. Has anyone tested both ? I understand that the software for these aren't complete yet but is there any clear winner here ? thanks.

 

[metalnwood]

Beano’s explanation is great for explaining why Fanatec has a holding torque graph that shows when degradation occurs but I think he doesn’t explain why a company would use one over the other so I’ll attempt to explain that here.

I must have missed why they chose it because by choosing the smaller motor they had to deliver a larger enclosure to manage cooling. Why would that be a reason to choose that motor if you cant deliver a sleeker end product?

 

[Deleted member 197115]

Here Beano's quote from this post

Out-runner servos is a different proposition, the higher torque capacity/weight/size comes with the disadvantage of a significantly reduced area for the stator, which causes big challenges for ripple-control algorithms, as well as the challenge getting the heat out of a servo, very often requiring active cooling. Fan-noise will be dependant on the quality and size of the fan.

So whilst out-runner style-servos are great for lightweight torquey equipment, higher-end precision position-based CNC Automation equipment are all using in-runner style servos due to their superior smoothness wrt significantly reduced ripple-torque due to a large stator-area (by design) and thermal management properties, reduced ripple allows for much greater positional accuracy, vs the out-runner style servos.

Guys, there are very good reasons an industrial drive-controller supplier like Granite Devices went with in-runner servos over other types: quality, reliability, absolute the best in positional accuracy, smoothness and other factors, are only a few key differentiators.

SC2 is in-runner and passive cooled, by far the best current DD wheel on the market, from my initial testing. More later after longer seat-time.

 

[TedBrosby-]

I must have missed why they chose it because by choosing the smaller motor they had to deliver a larger enclosure to manage cooling. Why would that be a reason to choose that motor if you cant deliver a sleeker end product?

The fact is, what I explained was the physical differences. The actual end product will depend on implementation, software, engineering, physical properties of the motor itself. Saying 'outrunner is worse' is just a blanket generalization. You can get worse performance out of a poorly built inrunner motor.
The advantage of outrunner is that it has a larger rotational radius, leading to higher torque for a lower size. This is evident by Fanatec's use of a single 480W power supply for the DD2 (same PSU as DD1), while the SC2 Pro requires two Meanwell 280W PSU's. I don't know the exact specifications but I'm assuming the SC2 Pro is using around 10A (20A total) at 28V per PSU at peak torque and the Fanatec is using around 10A at 48V per PSU. So Fanatec DD2 requires slightly less power to reach 25 Nm of peak torque.

Also note, it's not a smaller motor. It's a motor that uses more of its volumetric size to generate power. Unless someone cracks open both so we can see the insides of the servo motor itself, the stator, the coils, we have no idea what the physical differences are.

I can't tell you why Fanatec chose outrunner vs inrunner. All I can say is, in practice, outrunner = more torque for lower cost/more torque for same size, at the sacrifice of thermodynamic performance and speed/accuracy of speed.

Note: RC helicopter guys generally used outrunners because their external placement and use in flight meant active cooling was more or less guaranteed, and since flight is more or less based on constant rotational speed, there was less need for "faster" motors and more of a need for powerful motors.

Long term, we'll see if Fanatec decides to stick with outrunner and expand on the design or move to inrunner.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

SC2 Pro requires two Meanwell 280W PSU

SC2 Pro does not really need all 560W. SC Sport that is just 8Nm shy gets away with just single 280W.
I don't remember exact power requirement but GD just couldn't find off the shelf PSU of needed capacity and quality, so they ended up with 2 (overkill). And they tested similar or the same PSU Fanatec is using and discarded it as it didn't pass.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

Yay, found the actual power requirements

450W

 

[TedBrosby-]

SC2 Pro does not really need all 560W. SC Sport that is just 8Nm shy gets away with just single 280W.
I don't remember exact power requirement but GD just couldn't find off the shelf PSU of needed capacity and quality, so they ended up with 2 (overkill). And they tested similar or the same PSU Fanatec is using and discarded it as it didn't pass.

That's interesting.
Well, to be honest Fanatec's PSU didn't even pass their own testing. They quickly recalled the one which was sent out with their initial batches due to coil whine.
In that case, I retract my statement. In engineering principle, outrunner is able to achieve higher torque for lower power, but it might not be the case in practice. Hence my, "I have no idea it depends on how they're built" statement.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

Just because they use PSU of that capacity (480W) does not mean the motor needs all that juice.
Servo motors power consumption is based on the generated (requested) torque, not constant like steppers.

 

[TedBrosby-]

Just because they use PSU of that capacity (480W) does not mean the motor needs all that juice.
Servo motors power consumption is based on the current generated (requested) torque, not constant like steppers.

Well I know that. They use a safety factor, usually 75% or 3/4 of the max capacity of the PSU is what's considered the theoretical max. But watts and amps and current are a very simplified way to differentiate PSU's. The only thing I was pointing to was the fact that Pro has 2x 280 and Fanatec has 1x 480 gives at least some insight into what the theoretical power threshold is for both motors.

My theory is Fanatec uses slightly less power at peak, but it's only a theory, and unless (I doubt they would) they share the thermal and electrical requirements of their motor, we won't be able to know with certainty. To be honest, I'm actually surprised Granite said exactly how much power the Pro requires (450W). They are very transparent compared to other product manufacturers.

This is all apples and oranges to be honest. The type of motor is one aspect of the differences. The software implementation, firmware, electronics controller processing board, drivers will all play a role in how the wheel feels.

 

[Squared Circle]

The most likely reason for any design decision on a mass product would be cost. Maybe there's a (even marginal) cost difference between designing an inrunner vs. an outrunner.

 

[Ghoults]

There is also the axial flux permanent magnet motor which could be interesting for dd servos. It can have lots of poles so good for low speeds too. Although expensive and high inertia.

 

[CRMS]

Fanatec QR flex -

Worth a watch.

Just tried both ways. With wheel fixed iaw Page 4 of Quick Guide it is fine. Just pushed on with loose collar etc, and there is flex.

 

[Arkadiusz Wawrzyniak]

What are the dimensions of the dd wheel base itself plus length with rim mounted? I found description about packaging only, that it has 50cm length.
Also I am trying to find a distance from bottom to side screw hole.

 

[CRMS]

Shoule be able to get measurements from templates:

https://fanatec.com/media/pdf/5e/dd/9b/PodiumWB-DD1-DD2_drilling_template_A4.pdf

https://fanatec.com/media/pdf/cb/c0/f9/PodiumWB-DD1-DD2_drilling_templateA3.pdf

Rims end of hub to rim - F1 106mm - P1 128mm

 

[TedBrosby-]

To those of you wondering if SC1 is still an option. I just got done building mine. It feels great, but definitely going to DD, you'll need to start learning how to dig into settings. With belt based wheels, a lot of times you could just use whatever default settings you had in game. With SC1 and it sounds like SC2, the FFB feels really good after you dial it in. But if you want something easy mode, you might want to stick to belt driven wheels. I tried iRacing with just default settings and almost ripped a USB cable straight out of my PC case when the wheel started oscillating violently on straights in the 488 GT3. The rattling was so intense it knocked some M5 nuts off my wheel and made it loose on the QR hub, woke up my dog and upset my wife. These motors are powerful. Like, it sounds like someone is jackhammering cement in your living room when they oscillate, powerful.
I feel like the CSW isn't actually 8 Nm because the small MIGE at 8 Nm feels about 25% stronger. I just got done spending the whole day dialing in settings for iRacing and ACC, I can't even get AMS2 to give FFB to Simucube yet and my arms are tired lol.

One piece of advice I'll give anyone going to a DD from a belt driven base:
Start small. Use lower torque and build the strength up starting from Simucube settings and eventually adding detail and reducing filtering with the game settings after. Always hit 100% strength and close to 0% filters with Simucube before tweaking settings in game (With the exception of the force reduction filter, I keep that at least at 5, but for iRacing it's at 7).

If you try to go all in on torque, you're going to be startled by how powerful these motors are.
If SC2 Pro is even more powerful than this, phew lol.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

You can literally use any rim in existence as long as it uses automotive standard 70 or 50mm mounting pattern.
As for the wheel plate, there is a long list of manufacturers making USB and wireless plates working with SC2, in different shapes, features, quality, and price.
I see it's more like a limitation of the Podium as you are restricted to only what you can get from Fanatec.
Getting everything from one place of the same brand (wheelbase, pedals, wheels, shifter, etc) could be an advantage though. There are pluses and minuses of ecosystem/vendor lock-in.

Just stumbled upon this comprehensive list of USB and SC wireless wheel makers but even that one missing a bunch of entries

Übersicht Wheels für USB / Wireless Simucube

Hallo Leute, da die Suche nach einem passendem Wheel für ein Simucube mitunter etwas frustrierend sein kann wollte ich hier im Startpost mal die bekannten Adressen zu Shops pflegen wo man Buttonboxen, und komplette Wheels für non-Fanatec Hardware finden kann. Ich nenne das ganze mal...

forum.virtualracing.org

 

[metalnwood]

To those of you wondering if SC1 is still an option. I just got done building mine. It feels great, but definitely going to DD, you'll need to start learning how to dig into settings. With belt based wheels, a lot of times you could just use whatever default settings you had in game. With SC1 and it sounds like SC2, the FFB feels really good after you dial it in. But if you want something easy mode, you might want to stick to belt driven wheels. I tried iRacing with just default settings and almost ripped a USB cable straight out of my PC case when the wheel started oscillating violently on straights in the 488 GT3. The rattling was so intense it knocked some M5 nuts off my wheel and made it loose on the QR hub, woke up my dog and upset my wife. These motors are powerful. Like, it sounds like someone is jackhammering cement in your living room when they oscillate, powerful.
I feel like the CSW isn't actually 8 Nm because the small MIGE at 8 Nm feels about 25% stronger. I just got done spending the whole day dialing in settings for iRacing and ACC, I can't even get AMS2 to give FFB to Simucube yet and my arms are tired lol.

One piece of advice I'll give anyone going to a DD from a belt driven base:
Start small. Use lower torque and build the strength up starting from Simucube settings and eventually adding detail and reducing filtering with the game settings after. Always hit 100% strength and close to 0% filters with Simucube before tweaking settings in game (With the exception of the force reduction filter, I keep that at least at 5, but for iRacing it's at 7).

If you try to go all in on torque, you're going to be startled by how powerful these motors are.
If SC2 Pro is even more powerful than this, phew lol.

Yes, different games require different settings. Iracing with it's lower rate requires more filtering than others. I generally just use one profile per game so just a bit of time spent getting 3/4 profiles is well worth the easy way of staying with a belt drive

I would certainly suggest that people go to the SC forums and get a profile to start off with.

The SC2 already has built in profiles for games to get started. I dont know if this has been migrated to the SC1 software.

 

[TedBrosby-]

Yes, different games require different settings. Iracing with it's lower rate requires more filtering than others. I generally just use one profile per game so just a bit of time spent getting 3/4 profiles is well worth the easy way of staying with a belt drive

I would certainly suggest that people go to the SC forums and get a profile to start off with.

The SC2 already has built in profiles for games to get started. I dont know if this has been migrated to the SC1 software.

I read that the default profiles are something SC devs stopped updating. I’ll need to spend a few more days with the SC1 to get an idea of where I’m happy.
I’ll dig up and refresh the SC1 thread since this thread is about SC2 but if anyone is curious, SC1 is still an option and you’re not limited to just DD1/2 or Simucube 2.

 

[TedBrosby-]

Now's your chance everyone. Get ready.

SC2 Pro Units: good news, new large quantity is now confirmed. Webshop stock will be activated on 6. August at 3PM GMT, you will be able to place your order at the same time. Due to expected high demand – dispatch of all orders will take 1 – 3 working days (between 7. August – 11. August).

https://www.simracingbay.com/availability-of-sc2-products-status-update-17-april/

I've already built my DIY OSW with Simucube 1 and I'm quite happy with it. But if you want an SC2 Pro, better be ready at 3 GMT August 6th! Last time they went up, Pro's sold out in 15 minutes, so you better be ready.

 

[Mcorp]

it's just rediculous that everthing is sold out and on pre order.......i need one but i cant get one.
Life sucks....lol.

 

[Squared Circle]

Last time SRB sold SC2s, I wanted a Sport. The day before as TedBrosby already wrote the 70 pro units were sold in under 15 minutes. So be prepared: Create an account on the SRB website well ahead and sign in. Don't know how many Sports were sold but being prepared worked out for me. Best of luck to everyone trying to get a SC2. You're in for a marvelous product.