Mobile Driving/Flying Cockpit with Motion and Tactile ( Build )

Hy blekenbleu,

of course your a right about the factors that determin brake feel, but I doubt sincerely that outside of an
A/B comparison a human can distinguish between flex inside and outside of the brake system.

There are good reasons that car tests are often done in a comparison way, because humans can very seldomly "quantify theyr feelings" nor remember them exactly.
So the best way is to swap cars often.

I myself do like a stiff pedal/rig/seat combo, but it´s more preference than quantified and tested advantage.
 
Rigs are very personal and I'm not trying to suggest a singular way to do thing.

I think brake feel is also a personal choice thing. If you are in socks, you thoughts will be completely different from if you wear shoes, or if you drive real race cars, or....

- but maybe we then we miss content updates ..... so please do not change it :)
I may have no choice but to wrap this video up and add a part II with more testing and final thoughts.
My NLE (Vegas Video) is crashing way too often as the timeline has become more complex and it's becoming a serious battle.

So I plan to switch over to DaVinci Resolve that I've heard some very good things about and it's free.
 
.. and which probably triggers another (PC) hardware update?
(just wondering) ;)

And please keep on reporting :thumbsup:

My main development computer is perfectly adequate for editing software. It's a hand me down from my gaming rig, so currently an i9-9900K & 1080Ti with 32Gb RAM etc.. It's also a solid computer that works beautifully for Fusion 360, Visual Studio, PhotoShop, Camtasia, etc etc.

FWIW, my i9-12900KF & 2080Ti with Valve Index are currently with my daughter.


Edit: I think I found the issue causing the crashes. Apparently there is a legacy feature that is enabled by default that needs to be disabled. Now it seems to be good.

I'm running version 18 of this product that is currently on version 21 and they have gone to a subscription model. If I were to pay a subscription model, I'd go with Adobe Premiere, but DaVinci Resolve is actually a good bit of professional software that they have a free version of to hook people who become more professional to pay for it later.
 
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The first part is nearly 35 minutes long already. So I'm breaking this into two parts. This will make it easier for me to take more time with testing in a Part 2 so that I can hopefully get some reasonable A/B testing with visuals that can actually show what I'm feeling.

I'm going to post what I've got with a link here, but it is unlisted for the time being until I get all the links in place. It's public now and all the links are in place.

 
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Looking at the best way to measure the effects of the linear bearing in my last video.

To measure flex at the seat plate, I'm thinking about using my magnetic angle gauge for a rough idea.

1. Zero
2. Using the HE calibration tool press to a specific kg value like 40, 60, 80, and 100kg.
3. Measure the angle with and without linear bearings in place.

This seems like something where I could easily sync video of the level meter and the screen.

I was thinking of measuring SimHub test signal measurements on my seat plate. I'm not sure if linear accelerometer or g-Force meter would be better. I might use a specific effect at different frequencies. So long as it is reproducible.

1. With Linear Bearing.
2. With Linear Bearing and brake pressure, 20, 40, 60, 80, 100 kg.
3. Without Linear Bearing.

I'm hoping that between these we can see how effective the linear bearing is as preventing brake flex and how much impact the linear bearing has on the tactile effects just by being in place and under pressure.

The empirical numbers aren't the whole story, but they would at least be concrete measurements.

Ideally I could measure the the differences in the roll and rebounding with motion, but that will be very hard to reproduce consistently to create the same results.

Do any sims allow you to replay a previous rally run or lap with full motion active which would allow measuring the movement better under a real load? That should allow lining up the graphs to see differences.

Ordered one of these.
It has a magnetic mount, Windows software to analyze the data. Just make measurements, then plug it in by USB and see what it measured.

 
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There's gotta be places you could mount a machinist's dial indicator.. likely a lot more accurate for quantifying the tiny deflections than a magnetic angle gauge will be able to resolve.
 
There's gotta be places you could mount a machinist's dial indicator.. likely a lot more accurate for quantifying the tiny deflections than a magnetic angle gauge will be able to resolve.

Could you imagine trying to read that based on a camera image? That dial would be spinning like crazy! I can't imagine I could hold a steady enough brake pressure with my leg to make it calm down.

I'd have to find a very low precision version or create some kind of motion divider mechanism to slow the motion down.
 
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Braking force per degrees of tactile plate flex with the linear bearings in place is very linear!

deg - brake force
0.1 - 20kg
0.2 - 40kg
0.3 - 60kg
0.4 - 80kg

I typically run 60kg for 100% brake.

I have no complaints about the flex so far.
 
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I've been increasing my settings with the D-Box and it feels great!

I think I was getting disruptive rocking before. Especially in Dirt Rally where I felt like I had to back the overall motion settings back. Now I'm running them at higher settings and the feeling is more direct and feels more in sync what what I should feel.

For iRacing I had backed off front/rear reactivity because of their gear change effect. It felt brutal before the linear bearings. Afterwards, I was able to increase the fr/rear reactivity a bunch and in feels more like an impulse and I don't get that feeling of being shaken badly.

I'm still feeling my tactile pretty well. It's possible a little bit is being scrubbed, but bumped a few effects up a bit and all feels right.

Really feeling like I may have shorted the D-Box system a bit early on because of shaking that isn't how they designed it to work.
 
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Is an interesting element of a rig to find solutions that accomodate both a highend level of tactile but also motion. How do we balance a solution that does not compromise either or both. Good to see you getting creative though...

Another possible approach might have been to replace the "Open Spring" design that is free to a certain amount of tilt. It's a decent solution that was intended to be affordable but improved spring options are also worth considering.

Like a brake pedal, it could be possible to have a dampeneing pad as the first phase, underneath the plate and prior to the spring. To help give some element of softer dampening in a scenario like this where we may need a fairly stiff spring to support the users weight. The intention with the pad is to give that initial rebound, like a softer spring may have (more deflection) which yes can help for the feel of the tactile.

What may suit as well is to use a "Housed Spring Isolator" option that is restrained. Many companies apply these for machinary but some industrial manufacturers/brands can be quite costly with their products, similar to "Mason Industries" but it is a sector where there are lots of companies making such.

Of course, lots of China based copies with different rate springs like is used on the (Slip Angle kit) are an example. Ali Express etc will be full of cheap options of them, which appears to be what that kit uses.

Certainly in UK/Europe a more available and cheaper linear option that could be used as a vertical support/guide with other spring options would be to use a steel based rod/bar with

"SK / SHF Aluminum Bracket Linear Motion Rail Shaft Rod Support Mount".
Used a lot for d.i.y router builds too.

Or an alternative I have been considering as part of my own rig, to work with the motorised seat/pedal sections...

"MGN / Bearing Guide Slide & Carriage Block"
 
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There are people trying out solutions that are less expensive in the EU. I can share their results once they have installed them.

I can already base some of what I said from past trials. Very much may depend on the spring type used, if guide rails are even needed to stabilise more the seat/pedal sections for a motion rig. Not just apply an additional element to the types of springs you/others may have used.

Thoughts:
If wanting or having the tactile operational from a motion based option, the contact from the guide rails to the main plate like you illustrate in your own build. This would help that transfer into the seat as it is now, no longer necessarily having to go up through the springs/dampening used to reach the user.

This works both ways, as from the other perspective of the additional tactile energy being maintained in the seat. It now has a contact path and more potential to then leak into the main rig frame, also now bypassing the springs/dampening.

With larger units like the BK installed to the plate the wider "low bass bandwidth energy" from these will still most likely encompass the seat. May need some varation to the volumes to compensate... The query I would have is, how much this might affect different or higher based frequencies from a model like the TST that have less bandwidth.

Another factor is how well, the tactile from both sources can be made to operate together, (if people want that)..What from the motion based tactile, can we not improve via Simhub based effects and additional tactile we can install direct to the seat and pedals?

Very much depends on what the user has or applies in effects, what they want or like? You wanted to reduce the number of active effects to the Simhub tactile but with this you will likely loose potential stereo abilities in effects. To some this may not matter, for me it is something that has not been fully explored and I can illustrate soon what it can offer.

The fact remains that Simhub has multiple stereo based effects and few people I believe have made effects that combine them to operate together. Motion based tactile (as I understand) is usually only mono? So these are just elements to ponder.

With Simhub, it is possible to reduce the number of active effects per channel, and improve upon previous tried options that were used. By now using 6x - 8x BDS units attached to a seat will set a new level of potential.

Currently no other transducer/exciter can be attached direct to a seat in such numbers that operates the way it does or achieves quite what we can do with utilising low/mid/high bass. This all in a single direct to body based unit, and with that it brings improved potential with the stereo sensations. These could be implemented into effects as an option based on user preferences, to either use or just apply something different with what effects they want.

In a fascinating way.....
Tactile will always have different users possibly preferring to use or do different things and in different approaches. So always good to see how others come at it with different methods or perspectives. I still have things I want to do in my own build that I have not yet seen applied with tactile, but really the only way to know is by experimenting and putting ideas to the test...
 
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Experimentation is the only way to learn.

The Teledyne Flir unit I got will allow me to test frequently response with and without linear bearings, and with various brake loads.

I'll end up with a matrix when I'm done.

I designed a solution compatible with the plate many people already have.

It is entirely possible there is a frequency damping bias. And it may require boosting higher frequencies.

I won't know until I run the tests.

I will make sure to position the sensor in a repeatable place, but I may also place it USB port out and leave it in place while reading data from it for the duration of testing.
 
In other news I just saw that a company called Micronics is planning to release a desktop SLS printer for $2,999.

That's not cheap, but it is in Prusa XL territory, and has some interesting applications.

 
Experimentation is the only way to learn.

The Teledyne Flir unit I got will allow me to test frequently response with and without linear bearings, and with various brake loads.

I'll end up with a matrix when I'm done.

I designed a solution compatible with the plate many people already have.

It is entirely possible there is a frequency damping bias. And it may require boosting higher frequencies.

I won't know until I run the tests.

I will make sure to position the sensor in a repeatable place, but I may also place it USB port out and leave it in place while reading data from it for the duration of testing.

Go for it....
Not knocking you for attempting to improve something and with an issue you have found with your rig.
Although the percentage of installations that use dBox or even other motion, with advanced tactile will be a very low %

At the end of the day, what it comes down to is how well it feels with whatever people are using or applying...

Having sensors and readings may give you data but "what we feel or experience" is based on multiple factors as I am trying to highlight.
 
This isn't about the percentages for me.

I designed something I could use and that other people with that tactile plate could use. It's a small niche to be sure, but since I'm sharing everything and not trying to make money, it's all good.

Part list:
2 x linear bearings https://8020.net/40-6823.html
2 x 40x80 profile x 100mm https://8020.net/40-4080-lite.html
4 x Corner brackets https://8020.net/14079.html
4 x M8x16 socket head bolts with 4xM8 T-nuts ( corner braces to profile )
8 x M8x20 socket head bolts with 4xM8 T-nuts ( linear bearing to chassis)
4 x M8x25 socket head bolts ( longer replacement bolts through adapter plate into to seat profile t-nut)
8x M8x30 bevel head bolts ( through countersunk bolt holes in adapter plate into threaded profile and corner braces) 4 x M8 nuts and lock washers

Link to DXF file for plate will require counter sink step for center 4 holes.
 

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