Michael Schumacher

Never liked schumacher. he was always extremely arrogant. i liked it when he returned and he said he had learned more about himself. essentially, he learned to lose and show a human side.
now i appreciate him more. personally (only my opinion), he wasn't the greatest. however, when you watch his ferrari videos online e.g. 2004, i enjoy watching his laps. his racing line is unique. he is so shallow in the corners and somehow gets the car rotated and on power quickly. fasciniating
 
Never liked schumacher. he was always extremely arrogant.

You mean when he donated $10M to aid efforts for tsunami victims in Thailand 2005? Or when he let Barrichello win several races in return for what happened in Spielberg 2002? Or was it when he cried after equalizing Sennas record of race wins in Monza 2000 instead of engraving it on his helmet (the way Alonso does with his points record which is only down to the fact that the points system has changed massively and therefore useless).

No doubt, some of the things he did were selfish and some were unsportsmanlike. But that's only one side of the whole story.

Senna - a godlike figure for many of todays F1 fans - was just as bad when it came to being selfish and unsportsmanlike for his own benefit, holding people up in qualifying (Monte Carlo 1985 against Mansell), driving cars which had illegal equipment (extra large brakes in Adelaide 1987), crashing others out on purpose to win a championship (Suzuka 1990) etc.

Maybe one has to be dead for people to forget - or maybe it's a disadvantage if he's german AND successful.
 
You mean when he donated $10M to aid efforts for tsunami victims in Thailand 2005? Or when he let Barrichello win several races in return for what happened in Spielberg 2002? Or was it when he cried after equalizing Sennas record of race wins in Monza 2000 instead of engraving it on his helmet (the way Alonso does with his points record which is only down to the fact that the points system has changed massively and therefore useless).

No doubt, some of the things he did were selfish and some were unsportsmanlike. But that's only one side of the whole story.

Senna - a godlike figure for many of todays F1 fans - was just as bad when it came to being selfish and unsportsmanlike for his own benefit, holding people up in qualifying (Monte Carlo 1985 against Mansell), driving cars which had illegal equipment (extra large brakes in Adelaide 1987), crashing others out on purpose to win a championship (Suzuka 1990) etc.

Maybe one has to be dead for people to forget - or maybe it's a disadvantage if he's german AND successful.

1.So is it impossible to be arrogant and still be caring? I don't get your point.
2..About the one side of the story, I think that is what I said did I not?
3.Did I mention Senna?

About the German thing, I think you say that because I'm British rather than the other way around. I have no problem with Germans so that doesn't figure. In fact, I can happily say, Nico Hulkenburg and Rosberg are two confident people who are very nice. They are fast and not arrogant. There is a difference between arrogance and self belief.
 
1.So is it impossible to be arrogant and still be caring? I don't get your point.

Nope, but it's too simple to sum up Michaels behavior on and off track before his first retirement as "arrogant".

3.Did I mention Senna?

No, I did. It was an example for a limited point of view.

About the German thing, I think you say that because I'm British rather than the other way around. I have no problem with Germans so that doesn't figure. In fact, I can happily say, Nico Hulkenburg and Rosberg are two confident people who are very nice. They are fast and not arrogant. There is a difference between arrogance and self belief.

That's why I said one has to be german AND successful. Successful in a way that makes him a serious threat for british teams, drivers and the british pride in motorracing, particularly in F1.

Neither Rosberg nor Hülkenberg were or are a serious threat for any of the two top british drivers and the pride of their fans (count out the fact that Rosberg for once has a much better car than JB but you get the point). Vettel on the other hand is, that's why many british fans hate him.

Back in the 90's it was a similar situation with Frentzen and Schumacher. The latter one was a threat, so he was disliked while Heinz Harald was only a serious threat in 99 and even then it was only due to special circumstances, so he was automatically the "good german".

Besides, neither Rosberg nor Hülkenberg have ever been in a position which was close to win one or multiple championships. Would you be arrogant about 3 race wins in over 100 races or a couple of really strong results in 3 season of F1?

Wait for them to get into a situation where a WDC is on the brink and then see if they don't start playing mindgames with their rivals or refusing teamorders to get the points they need in order to win the title before you comment about their character.
 
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You mean like Michael did to Damon after the brit winning Silverstone for the first time? Skip to 6:03.
was that before he did this:

and this (non-british vs german example)

i'm not going to argue and say that some people don't like a person dominating as that would be untrue. However, you seem to have some racial tendencies that are nothing to do with schumacher - you are alledging that it is only british who don't like vettel? What, like at Monza? by ferrari and italian fans? Vettel has dominated the sport in a car designed by a British genius. It is no coincidence that he has been booed after ignoring team orders earlier this year...the boos we're not that bad last year were they?so a bit of a flawed argument there.

nico rosberg has beaten hamilton a few times. people love him. nico hulkenburg...there are a lot of british fans who want to see him in a top car and he has beaten british drivers.

i never liked frentzen. thought he was moody and not that talented tbh

i still don't get the point about senna. My comments had nothing to do with him so it is nothing to do with a simplistic point of view.

to point number 1, often, simplicity is genius?

In short, i posted a complement about schumacher and you have tried to take this forum down a british versus germany thing. you make second guesses about why i would think schumacher was arrogant in the past - referring to senna, referring to britain and germany etc.

but you are wrong with your assumptions and if you are telling me that you know what is in my head more than I do, then I will let others decide if that is a clever comment or a bit "simple"
In short, I didn't like schumacher's arrogance in his career. I also didn't like the incidents with hill, villeneuve and parking his car at monaco to stop alonso. in 3 years at mercedes, I must say, he was outperformed by rosberg in every season. he learned to lose and became a nicer person.

now i look back at the cars he drove and his driving, i enjoy it more because i don't have to watch the rule breaking - I can look at the clean laps.

If you want to harp on about britain vs germany, go for it. However, you cannot argue about this: I have an opinion which is as important as yours. If not, are you then saying you are the "master race"? (no doubt).Also, I know my thoughts better than you.
others will often have differing opinions. YOu will have to deal with that and you won't make this person agree with you in a hurry. cheers
 
was that before he did this:

and this (non-british vs german example)

Would've never guessed that you bring that up...:rolleyes:

Interestingly enough, Murray Walkers opinion on Adelaide 94 was this:

And my opinion is that Hill was a fool to go for the move right after Schumi smashed into the wall instead of waiting one or two corners and comfortably taking the lead. Served him right, even more because in my opinion he wouldn't have deserved to win the 1994 WDC as much as Michael did even if the FIA tried very hard to make it happen.

And look what Jacques Villeneuve has to say about Jerez 97:
http://blog.axisofoversteer.com/2012/08/how-i-played-schumacher-like-fiddle.html

Quote: "I would never have made that corner without his push. There was no way for me to pass him there but I tried anyway. I thought he might bump me because I had remembered what he did to Hakkinen in the Formula 3 finals in Macau "

Not trying to say that what Michael did wasn't unfair and dumb, but JV wasn't quite the innocent angel being attacked by the teutonic german as many people see it.

i'm not going to argue and say that some people don't like a person dominating as that would be untrue. However, you seem to have some racial tendencies that are nothing to do with schumacher - you are alledging that it is only british who don't like vettel? What, like at Monza? by ferrari and italian fans? Vettel has dominated the sport in a car designed by a British genius. It is no coincidence that he has been booed after ignoring team orders earlier this year...the boos we're not that bad last year were they?so a bit of a flawed argument there.

First of all: I have no racial tendencies, as this is impossible. British people and german people do share the same race, we're all caucasian (with a few exceptions but I hope you get the point).

Secondly, where did I say that it's ONLY british fans hating on Vettel and other german drivers? I didn't. But as this is a british forum, with most of its users being british and the topic on Michael Schumacher I thought that it wouldn't be wrong to assume that nationality plays an important role in the way british fans and their media look at certain personalities.

Let's be honest: There's nothing worse for many british fans of whatever sport to see a german team or a german individual winning and it gets even worse if it's a domination like in F1 or football at the moment.
Just wait for the next match between the german national team and the British national team and make sure to read all sorts of british newspapers a few days before the game.

But as this is a topic about F1, let's get back to the main point: How do you want to measure if the boos in Silverstone were not as bad last year. Isn't it unfair to make that comparison given the fact that Vettel only finished 3rd last year compared to nearly winning this year and dominating the whole season?

I don't buy the whole Malaysia-TO thing as the reason for the boos, it's a welcomed excuse, but to my mind that's not the real issue. It just sucks seeing that german guy dominating race by race with a team that has got all the financial ressources you can have because of their austrian boss being a smart cookie and billionaire.

nico rosberg has beaten hamilton a few times. people love him. nico hulkenburg...there are a lot of british fans who want to see him in a top car and he has beaten british drivers.

i never liked frentzen. thought he was moody and not that talented tbh

That's why I said wait for Nico to become a serious threat. He has beaten Lewis several times, but please, he's not a threat compared to Vettel. Nico has never finished better than 7th in the WDC and even though he gave Lewis a hard time every now and then it's fairly clear that Lewis is the teams #1 (it was clear early on or did you forget about the teamorder in Malaysia?).

i still don't get the point about senna. My comments had nothing to do with him so it is nothing to do with a simplistic point of view.

It was an example, I'm telling you for the second time now. Could you please read my comments before responding?

In short, i posted a complement about schumacher and you have tried to take this forum down a british versus germany thing. you make second guesses about why i would think schumacher was arrogant in the past - referring to senna, referring to britain and germany etc.

but you are wrong with your assumptions and if you are telling me that you know what is in my head more than I do, then I will let others decide if that is a clever comment or a bit "simple"
In short, I didn't like schumacher's arrogance in his career. I also didn't like the incidents with hill, villeneuve and parking his car at monaco to stop alonso. in 3 years at mercedes, I must say, he was outperformed by rosberg in every season. he learned to lose and became a nicer person.

now i look back at the cars he drove and his driving, i enjoy it more because i don't have to watch the rule breaking - I can look at the clean laps.

Wow, someone's sensitive. :rolleyes:

You gave your opinion, I gave mine. I was trying to give you a different perspective on Schumacher's first career, underlining it with snippets from the past. Ever heard of broadening one's horizon? ;)

Reason was that it's boring to see the same old stories when people talk about Schumacher, it's always the same and it's never the whole story.

If not, are you then saying you are the "master race"? (no doubt)

Yes, that's exactly what I was saying.

yes-it-was-sarcasm.jpg
 
.
Your point being?

Here you go with your assumptions. I didn't mention Senna and I didn't mention Murray Walker. what has his opinion got to do with anything? Clarify yourself?

exactly the attitude I disagree with as it is blatant cheating. You have confirmed your attitude that it is ok to cheat to win.

I believe this to be a misquote or bravado for the article. i've hear Villeneuve speak on a season review. He said that he was aware that schumacher might try the move but he had to go for it. Realistically, no driver would think...I'll just brake late and the other guy will bounce me back onto track without any damage. villeneuve is a bit cocky but at least he's not a cheat.

here you go about "german" this again. it really does sound like you have a complex. I'm waiting for you to mention "the war" again.


no i don't. because above (up there^) yet again you mention other people being against germans...who? "outsiders"? Caucasian? Are you kidding me? Britain is one of the most multi-cultural places now. I'm not sure about German attitudes but it seems people of different colours are being more accepted...gradually.[/B]
 
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Secondly, where did I say that it's ONLY british fans hating on Vettel and other german drivers? You didn't mentioned italians - you only mentioned British.

But as this is a british forum - is it? Is the owner not Dutch? Are many/most of the mods not from germany, holland, europe generally?

the british media tends to criticise british more than other races. we always criticise ourselves. however, we are usually against foul play e.g. diving in football, crashing to win...[/B]

why? why would there be nothing worse than seeing german victories over british?
German youth generally seem to be "over" the loss of 2 world wars. English are "over" losing in penalty shoot outs because we expect to. You still seem to hold this attitude that these attitudes are there. they are for some, but not for all.

british newspapers? media? generally garbage. they try to sell things with an agenda.
does that mean we all agree with journalists?[/B]

in 2011 vettel dominated. was he booed so much? measure? well one measure is that people in the spoken media (including german broadcasters) have been unpicking why he is being booed all of a sudden. they didn't do this in 2011...so that is a measure that is quite obvious. not in decimals but in public reaction.[/B]

It just sucks seeing that german guy dominating race by race with a team that has got all the financial ressources you can have because of their austrian boss being a smart cookie and billionaire. I agree with this in part. i think it is largely due to wanting to see the very best drivers in similar cars and clearly, redbull have an advantage. i think there is a frustration.



i disagree. if you watch nico at germany this year, even though lewis needed to pass on softer tyres, nico didn't let him and the team didn't get tough with him. other than malaysia where the team were worried, i don't recall any other team orders. i think nico is improving and has been very unlucky. i still think lewis is better but that's just my opinion. who knows if nico would beat vettel or not as they've never really been in similar cars. that said, nico did out qualifying him at monaco and he is as intelligent. he has potential but maybe not the ice cool nerves.

please read my comments and open your mind to being incorrect.
 
Wow, someone's sensitive. :rolleyes: ]a comment which is intended for what purpose? to make things sensitive? I have opinions. it doesn't mean i'm sensitive for giving my opinions. I would argue you are sensitive as you keep mentioning nationality - do you have a complex?

You gave your opinion, I gave mine. I was trying to give you a different perspective on Schumacher's first career, underlining it with snippets from the past. Ever heard of broadening one's horizon? ;) Yes, you still haven't broadened yours because you can only see forward.

Reason was that it's boring to see the same old stories when people talk about Schumacher, it's always the same and it's never the whole story - because...you know michael schumacher better than everyone else right? is your name ralph?
you mean...you have a different opinoin because you're german, you worry what other nationalities think about you - particularly british people. you have a complex and therefore you think all british people dislike schumacher because he is german...but really, because you are paranoid?



yes-it-was-sarcasm.jpg

I have no idea what this comment is referring to. I think he is a funny actor. very funny?

Now, let me shorten this....
You like schumacher because he's german.
You don't want anything bad said about him or anyone to criticise him unless they aren't british - because then you won't be paranoid. If I was japanese, you probably wouldn't have ranted on.
You have admitted that it was ok for schumacher to knock hill off because hill wasn't as good a driver (cheating).
You have admitted that it was ok for schumacher to try to knock villeneuve off because villeneuve planned a very clever move to bounce off schumacher onto the track and still win the race. (cheating)
You feel that vettel has always been booed this much (so why is it in the media all over the world right now and so many people talking about it - yet he had similar success in 2011)
You say that Racedepartment is a british forum when it is for everyone and not run by british people. it uses ENglish as this is such a popular language.

My view: I don't like cheating of any sort. i accept people have to be tough to win but i can't accept cheating. i think winners should be dignified when they lose - especially as it is rare. I don' think schumacher is the greatest driver of all time but he is a great driver with great motivation and ahead of his time in preparation. I like him more as a person now as he has shown his human side in interviews - not just because he didn't do very well. i was actually happy when he got a monaco pole.

i don't dislike germans.
I'm used to penalty shoot out losses and english losing on penalty shoot outs.
there are probably germans who hate british and vice versa. then there are probably polish who don't like germans and vice versa...there are bad people in the world believe it or not.
i disagree with you and you with me. now that we have put forward our views and disagree...shall we just agree to disagree because we are wasting our lives?
Remember, this is a forum for all and that means...there will be different opinions. it is allowed. i accept you have an opinion and i simply justified my opinion after you suggested the german/british thing - which is nothing to do with my opinion. voila!
 
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Not trying to say that what Michael did wasn't unfair and dumb, but JV wasn't quite the innocent angel being attacked by the teutonic german as many people see it.

But as this is a british forum, with most of its users being british

I'm not going to disrupt anything you two have going on atm.

But doesn't the quote from JV point to that MS was somewhat known to do 'stupid' and/or moves that's far from fair.

And British forum? If I'm not totally wrong, this started out as the place where the Roaring Pipes Maniacs simraceteam had their base, and gradually expanded. So I would call this a dutch or european forum, but with members and drivers from all around the world.
 
]Haha, what a silly reply :p Perhaps it is me? Funneh.[/quote]
Yes. It may well be;)
You haven't explained yourself, I can't see where I've written "stuff" anyway and now you are posting pointless comments. It shows how much you love your driver as two of you have taken this off topic and down to some british vs german thing.
 
Never liked schumacher. he was always extremely arrogant. i liked it when he returned and he said he had learned more about himself. essentially, he learned to lose and show a human side.
now i appreciate him more. personally (only my opinion), he wasn't the greatest. however, when you watch his ferrari videos online e.g. 2004, i enjoy watching his laps. his racing line is unique. he is so shallow in the corners and somehow gets the car rotated and on power quickly. fasciniating


i think this shows positivity against previous negativity? That was my opinion. We clearly disagree (only I have given reasons) so lets move on and do that mature thing,,if you can?
 

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