David Garcia
Premium
GP2 are (more or less) standard cars, now, let´s see what Mercedes can add to the equation.
David Garcia
Premium
Sorry? Hamilton and Schumacher equalyy squilled? 
Cmon! That would be Hamilton´s dream. Alonso is equally skilled. I really would have liked to see Hamilton with a Jordan, a Minardi or a Renault, there is where you have to prove your skills as others with less luck did in the past. He have only drived for a winning team owned by your sportive father, that is a fact, and it is easy to look brilliant this way.
I don´t think Schumacher is too old, and it is proveed with Ross Brawn and a good car he will be able to win again, the question is, what will Mercedes add in there? The car is 80% in the equation, and they will need to be competitive to earn a new title.
About Rosberg, I really doubt he have a chance with Ross Brawn as team manager and Michael as driver in the same team. It is proveed Ross Brawn policy about equality is like the proved chinnesse democracy.
Cmon! That would be Hamilton´s dream. Alonso is equally skilled. I really would have liked to see Hamilton with a Jordan, a Minardi or a Renault, there is where you have to prove your skills as others with less luck did in the past. He have only drived for a winning team owned by your sportive father, that is a fact, and it is easy to look brilliant this way.I don´t think Schumacher is too old, and it is proveed with Ross Brawn and a good car he will be able to win again, the question is, what will Mercedes add in there? The car is 80% in the equation, and they will need to be competitive to earn a new title.
About Rosberg, I really doubt he have a chance with Ross Brawn as team manager and Michael as driver in the same team. It is proveed Ross Brawn policy about equality is like the proved chinnesse democracy.
In saying that, you've just ignored practically his entire 2009 season. Hamilton proved that he had talent by working with the engineers to develop the car throughout the season, and it paid off for him. He started 09 with a dog of a car, and had bad races until he helped turn it into a race winner... what more do you want?
David Garcia
Premium
Rhys, don´t take me wrong, but in my opinion being in McLaren is not being in Renault or Jordan. You don´t need to be that good there, as the team have a superb budget and less limitations. I think Hamilton have too much to prove still to be compared with the champions, and as Button, I really doubt he scores a second world tittle. But I admit he have talent, but no more than some other names on F1 driving for second class teams.
Anyway this thread is about Mercedes and Schumacher, don´t want to mix matters here.
Anyway this thread is about Mercedes and Schumacher, don´t want to mix matters here.
Rhys> I have a hard time believing Hamilton helped turn that car around. This was the guy who relied on Alonso's setup's when they were paired at McLaren and as good a driver he is you don't pick up that ability in a few seasons. I think the development is more down to McLaren's millions, the size of their team and more seasoned testers such as De La Rosa. I don't think Hamilton is even in the same league as Schumacher, I also rate Alonso over Hamilton as a driver. Hamilton was put into a championship winning car, given preferrential treatment and still managed to choke at the end of the 2007 season. He almost threw away 2009 when he should have been walking away with it and only some last corner shennanigans with Glock saved him. He's a gifted driver thats true but he has a long way to go to be compared to Alonso let alone Schumacher
Hey all!! In my opinion, I am sure it will be a surprise for everyone ... even with 41 years ... and he knows it better than anyone ...
The pressure will always be either one side or the other for various reasons ! I hope the best driver will win, rightly!! Chears!!
In my opinion, I am sure it will be a surprise for everyone ... even with 41 years ... and he knows it better than anyone ... The pressure will always be either one side or the other for various reasons ! I hope the best driver will win, rightly!! Chears!!
It is impossible to think that Hamilton used Alonso's setups in 07 their driving styles are to different for Hamilton to make Alonso's work and vice versa. Do we forget that Hamilton has been in the seat of a Maclaren since he was 17 and his foot in the door since he was 14. To think that he wouldn't have the knowledge or ability to develop the car would be naive, the same as it woulb be naive to think the same as Button at brawn last season.
As for Schumacher he is awesome he will grand prix weather it's 1, or 10 but with the current array of drivers he is outclassed, as he was in 05 and 06. Granted 05 Alonso had a phenomanal car but in 06 when they were pretty equal Schumacher had to Win at Brazil with Alonso not making the points, to me thats out classed. And from there on weve seen Hamilton do the same to Alonso in 07 and Massa in 08, who practically had the championship handed to him on a silver platter and still couldn't take it.
The old man will fight like a maniac, but he will win 0 Grand Prix because his new car has the totaly wrong color :tongue:
It was widely talked about at the time and Alonso told the press all his and Pedro De La Rosa's date was given to Hamilton. He was their golden child, the favoured driver who had the 2007 season gifted to him and he still choked. He had the best car in 2008 and yet was pushed right to the end despite Massa's retirements and bad luck - particularly the Singapore refuelling incident and of course the Renault race fixing controvesy. Even then it was down to some dodgy last corner shennanigans that let Hamilton take the title he should have cruised to if he was half the champion people make him out to be.
Hamilton outclassed Alonso? the 2007 season finished with them on 109 points each with 4 wins under their belts. I'm not saying he's not a talented driver because he is but he was dropped into a championship winning car with a team focused on making him a world champion.
Thats the maclaren way to share data, the same way Schumacher used to take a hell of alot of Barrichello's data.
And it would be hard for hamilton to use De la rosa's track to track data sincetesting was banned.
And you seem to question Hamilton's ability on the fact he is spoon fed on a car he's been helping the development of since he was 17 as T driver.
Its funny how schumachers ability hasn't been raised in when he was spoon fed for the best part of 12 years. Especially the 10 years he was at ferarri when team mates were never allowed to race him.
Hamilton is a long shot from being my favourite driver but he is the best of the current array of drivers as schumcher was until he was dethroned by Alonso.
And it would be hard for hamilton to use De la rosa's track to track data sincetesting was banned.
And you seem to question Hamilton's ability on the fact he is spoon fed on a car he's been helping the development of since he was 17 as T driver.
Its funny how schumachers ability hasn't been raised in when he was spoon fed for the best part of 12 years. Especially the 10 years he was at ferarri when team mates were never allowed to race him.
Hamilton is a long shot from being my favourite driver but he is the best of the current array of drivers as schumcher was until he was dethroned by Alonso.
David Garcia
Premium
Well Schumacher have proved to be able to take a bad car and make it a winner. Same for Alonso. About Hamilton, well it is obvious he entered into a good team, with a good car, and with a teammate making the hard job.
You don't need to have driven on the track to be able to suggest tweaks and adjustments that can be made to iron out a certain problem at a corner etc. Odd that you credit Hamilton as developing the car when he said in 2006 "Number 2 would be the ideal solution for me. I don't' want to test. I'm not a test driver, I'm a racing driver" Schumacher was never spoon fed as you put it. He's worked his way up as other drivers like Alonso has. Neither of them were groomed like Hamilton was by McLaren and then dropped into a Championship winning car in their first season. I find it laughable you think any of Schumacher's team mates were held back his driving ability spoke for itself as does the numerous records he smashed on his way to 7 world championships. Even Alonso says "Winning seven Championships would be tough, if not impossible in today's Formula One"
Hamilton won his title by being plonked into the best car, with the team fully behind him; true. Schumacher won all his titles by being plonked into the best car with the team fully behind him as well. Why should how long they've been in the sport make any difference?
And the testing/racing thing: Hamilton said last year that he and Kovalainen had spent long hours in the simulator with their engineers, developing the car. Note that this is not talking about 07 or 08 - this is 2009, the year when Hamilton had to deal with a car that wasn't the best all the time. And he still managed to win races with it. 2009 was the year when Lewis showed how good and committed he could be in a sub-standard car, as opposed to being in a race winner from the outset, and for that, I give him credit.
And the testing/racing thing: Hamilton said last year that he and Kovalainen had spent long hours in the simulator with their engineers, developing the car. Note that this is not talking about 07 or 08 - this is 2009, the year when Hamilton had to deal with a car that wasn't the best all the time. And he still managed to win races with it. 2009 was the year when Lewis showed how good and committed he could be in a sub-standard car, as opposed to being in a race winner from the outset, and for that, I give him credit.
Hamilton did exactly the same thing last year, as outlined above. What I find strange is that neither you nor Kevin are taking that into account.David Garcia said:
Schumacher certainly had the backing of Ferrari, he was by far the better driver but he won when he didn't have the best car and he also didn't have the same kind of status at Benetton (or his one race with Jordan for that matter) as he did at Ferrari but I'l llet you off that one as you were only what 2-3 years old? I think what David was also talking about was something Alonso and Schumacher share and thats taking a bad car and making it a winner, not necessarily through testing but just throwing it around the track and making the best of a bad job. Drivers like Hamilton, Massa and dissapointingly to me seem to switch off sometimes when they have a poor car out on the track and seem happy just to make up the numbers. What we've not seen of Hamilton is him driving a poor car, and I don't mean a poorly performing car from a multi million pound team pouring millions into developing their car I mean a lower team - thats not his fault of course but you tend to see another side of a driver in that position.
I think what David was also talking about was something Alonso and Schumacher share and thats taking a bad car and making it a winner, not necessarily through testing but just throwing it around the track and making the best of a bad job. Drivers like Hamilton, Massa and dissapointingly to me seem to switch off sometimes when they have a poor car out on the track and seem happy just to make up the numbers. What we've not seen of Hamilton is him driving a poor car, and I don't mean a poorly performing car from a multi million pound team pouring millions into developing their car I mean a lower team - thats not his fault of course but you tend to see another side of a driver in that position.Schumacher certainly had the backing of Ferrari, he was by far the better driver but he won when he didn't have the best car and he also didn't have the same kind of status at Benetton (or his one race with Jordan for that matter) as he did at Ferrari but I'l llet you off that one as you were only what 2-3 years old?
Im sorry but some of the things you come out with are so contradictive. When have Alonso and Schumacher won in cars that haven't had millions of pounds thrown at them. Ferrari are the biggest spending team in formula 1. And when schumi signed for Benetton Flav was throwing money at the team to help raise it's profile.
Secondly correct me if im wrong but Renault are i think the most succesful manufacturer in terms of engine and team wins. I could be wrong on that but still RENAULT, money to burn.
And even on his return Schumi hasn't gone to a struggling outfit like Hill did for 97,98 and 99. He's gone to big spending Mercedes. In fact by your reckoning Hill should be the greatest driver ever as he's the only driver to take a poor team to great finishes, he got arrows a fantastic 2nd in Hungary 97 and Jordan their first ever win a feat that i think you'll agree none of the above mentioned drivers have accomplished.
Coming from the poster who claims Hamilton outclassed Alonso in 2007 when the actual facts are they tied on 109 points each with 4 wins each. Coming from the poster who claimed Hamilton had been developing the McLaren F1 car since he was 17 when in fact he was never a test driver until he joined Formula 1 as a competing driver.
Oh my you really are reaching now, Benetton was not in the same league as its rivals. It was a team in turmoil with the management gone and a team looking for talent. They found it with Schumacher. You might want to consider his first ever win when asking about victories made in cars that were not front runners or as part of a front running team.
No he didn't because even at 40 he still had teams wanting him to drive for them, something Hill did not have when he was unceremoniously dumped by Williams. Hill was a good driver but he went to Jordan because that was the best on offer to him, a back marker of a team whose victory came through freakish events on the track due to the extreme weather.
Hamilton did not "outclass" Alonso in the literal sense, but think about it: Alonso was a reigning double world champion, who has been in the sport since 2001. Hamilton, in his first season, matched Alonso and very nearly beat him in the same car. Looking at it that way, some would say that qualifies as outclassing. How many drivers have come into F1 and matched their double-world-champion teammate in their rookie season, regardless of their team?
Also it's strange how you mention Hills win was only due to freak weather conditions, surely thats a good thing as he was the best driver with the ability to do the job and keep his car on track.
It almost sounds like that your knocking him down for being able to finish a drenched race in 1st place.
Not only that the most impressive finish he had was Hunagry 97 in an Arows that was quite clearly one if not the worse car on the Grid, he dominated the Hungarian GP only to finish 2nd due to an engine problem on the last lap.
Interesting how you decided to knock his win, which was a good win, but you show no recognition of arguably the greatest drive of his career.
And yes schumi did win in a benetton in 93 but as i said Briatore was pumping millions into the team so it was by no means a poor team.
94 a season marred with controversey, the start of the 94 season williams were playing catchup to benetton as the benetton started the season the BEST car, many belived the benetton had an illegal T/C system, granted not proven, the driver challenging Schumi for the tiltle helped develop are poor performing car, while the team were mourning the death of a driver, and the great schumi who couldn't keep it together at the last race did what, oh yeah he rammed Hill off.
It appears to me that you can't take any negative criticism about schumi, you thnk he is this ultimate f1 driving machine which he quite clearly isn't as every point you've made has been so contradictive and full of holes, i guess the only way we'll truly know is when he ends up with egg on his face next season but i imagine your the kind of person who will turn around and say "they wouldn't have beat Schumacher a few years ago."
So back to my originl point, schumacher has only ever won in a good car.
Just while im on it, you said Hamilton was thrown into a championship winning car, imposible, maclaren had't won a championship since 98 so they were certainly not a championship winning team.
It almost sounds like that your knocking him down for being able to finish a drenched race in 1st place.
Not only that the most impressive finish he had was Hunagry 97 in an Arows that was quite clearly one if not the worse car on the Grid, he dominated the Hungarian GP only to finish 2nd due to an engine problem on the last lap.
Interesting how you decided to knock his win, which was a good win, but you show no recognition of arguably the greatest drive of his career.
And yes schumi did win in a benetton in 93 but as i said Briatore was pumping millions into the team so it was by no means a poor team.
94 a season marred with controversey, the start of the 94 season williams were playing catchup to benetton as the benetton started the season the BEST car, many belived the benetton had an illegal T/C system, granted not proven, the driver challenging Schumi for the tiltle helped develop are poor performing car, while the team were mourning the death of a driver, and the great schumi who couldn't keep it together at the last race did what, oh yeah he rammed Hill off.
It appears to me that you can't take any negative criticism about schumi, you thnk he is this ultimate f1 driving machine which he quite clearly isn't as every point you've made has been so contradictive and full of holes, i guess the only way we'll truly know is when he ends up with egg on his face next season but i imagine your the kind of person who will turn around and say "they wouldn't have beat Schumacher a few years ago."
So back to my originl point, schumacher has only ever won in a good car.
Just while im on it, you said Hamilton was thrown into a championship winning car, imposible, maclaren had't won a championship since 98 so they were certainly not a championship winning team.
Hamilton didn't outclass Alonso in any sense of the word. He did do very well for his first season but he was in a team geared towards making him world champion in the best car on the grid. I think he is a good driver and will likely get another championship if not more but I don't believe he is the second coming like some people make him out to be.
Its really pointless having a conversation with you. Each time I post something you ignore parts and try to move onto something else. We were talking about Schumacher vs Hamilton vs Alonso etc and you drag up a race in 1998?? You ignored my comment about events on the track which turned the race upside down, a restarted race, 13 cars colliding, only 8 cars finishing, all the main championship contenders out of the race but no you focus on one part - the weather and try and spin that into making it sound like one of the classic wet weather drives we've seen from Schumacher, Senna or perhaps even some of Hamilton's wet weather laps. Its really quite ridiculous you keep doing this.
Well if it appears to you that way then that really doesn't bother me as you seem to have such a loose handle on actual facts. I've countered your points, blown holes in your myths such as Hamilton developing the car since he was 17, expunged the fantasy of Hamilton outclassing Alonso and now watch as you dance off into years long since past about drivers we are not even talking about. Well off you go I'm done with your silliness. I've already given an example which you chose to ignore. As for the weak point about McLaren not having won before 2007 they were one of the main championship contenders from 1998 - the present day so again you try and twist it to make it sound like they were not capable of winning. Since when did a car have to be appointed a title contender before the season starts for it to be a title contender? McLaren's performance was obvious from the start of the season. You've taken this off topic far enough, I'm done with you.
